A question about Isaiah 14:12–14.

[Sammy-San]

According to Isaiah 14:12–14, the devil (and also the other fallen angels) fell from Heaven because he was arrogant and he wanted to be God.

However, this verse does not explain why demonic spirits tempt people today and influence them to do evil things. If they originally were arrogant beings who wanted to be God, what gave them the motivation to cause so much evil and suffering in this world?

According to gotquestions.org, "Finally, the Bible gives us no reason to believe that angels would repent even if God gave them the chance (1 Peter 5:8). The fallen angels seem completely devoted to opposing God and attacking God's people."

But why are they so devoted to causing so much evil and suffering in the world? The Bible says that God wants to get people saved because his plan is to bring us back to fellowship with him, because after sin came into the world, a lot of people turned away from God and started acting wicked and sinful.

The Bible tells us what motivates God and the angels, but the Bible never explains why evil spirits want to turn people away from God and influence them to act evil. Isaiah 14:12–14 explains that fallen angels are arrogant beings who want to be God, but it never says why they tempt people to sin and do evil things.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

According to Isaiah 14:12–14, the devil (and also the other fallen angels) fell from Heaven because he was arrogant and he wanted to be God.

No.

Isaiah 14:12 is not about the devil. It is about the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II, as is the ENTIRE chapter of 14. The KJV got it wrong. Lucifer was used erroneously in that verse and has since been removed by modern, more accurate translations.

 

[Bobinator]

No.

Isaiah 14:12 is not about the devil. It is about the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II, as is the ENTIRE chapter of 14. The KJV got it wrong. Lucifer was used erroneously in that verse and has since been removed by modern, more accurate translations.

I believe Isaiah 14 is talking about Adam. It was Adam who wanted to be like God. It was he who brought down the nations. He is the one that is blamed for all of mankind being in this sorry state of affairs. You are correct to say this scripture is in reference to a man, simply because it says so.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

I believe Isaiah 14 is talking about Adam. It was Adam who wanted to be like God. It was he who brought down the nations. He is the one that is blamed for all of mankind being in this sorry state of affairs. You are correct to say this scripture is in reference to a man, simply because it says so.

It is about Nebuchadnezzar II.

Neb II was the Babylonian King that conquered Jerusalem, burned down the temples, destroyed the autographs, imprisoned the Jews, and thought of himself as a Persian god. The Jews hated him with a burning passion.

The entire chapter is talking about his fall. In death, he was knocked off his high horse. He was not immortal, he was not above the heavens, he was nothing but a man that will now rot in his grave.

Isaiah was mocking him with words.

Ancient history 101.

There is no reference to Luke 10:18. That was an error on the part of the KJV and has since been revised.

 

[Sammy-San]

No.

Isaiah 14:12 is not about the devil. It is about the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II, as is the ENTIRE chapter of 14. The KJV got it wrong. Lucifer was used erroneously in that verse and has since been removed by modern, more accurate translations.

For the sake of this discussion, let's just say that Isaiah 14 12 is about the devil. Gotquestions.org explains why that verse cannot refer to the King of Babylon.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

For the sake of this discussion, let's just say that Isaiah 14 12 is about the devil. Gotquestions.org explains why that verse cannot refer to the King of Babylon.

It's not about the devil, and to discuss it otherwise is drivel. GQ.org is VERY conservative; might as well call it the SBC.org website, and they are just trying to defend a KJV point of view. Nothing more to discuss here.

 

[talitha]

Apparently some people's open-mindedness stops at the point of considering that the "conservative" point of view may possibly be correct. Annnyyyhoooo.....

According to Isaiah 14:12–14, the devil (and also the other fallen angels) fell from Heaven because he was arrogant and he wanted to be God.

However, this verse does not explain why demonic spirits tempt people today and influence them to do evil things. If they originally were arrogant beings who wanted to be God, what gave them the motivation to cause so much evil and suffering in this world?

Well, two things come to mind:
One, they have seen what life is like outside the dominion of Light, and they don't like it. However, instead of that driving them to repentance, it drives them to jealousy toward these other beings who have the opportunity to share in that dominion.
Two: the desire to be God includes the desire to be in charge. Since they cannot be in charge of God and of the angels of righteousness, then they will seek to be in charge of whatever is before them, by hook or by crook. If they can tempt people to do evil things, then they are in control of something. And they are fiercely competitive with one another.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Apparently some people's open-mindedness stops at the point of considering that the "conservative" point of view may possibly be correct. Annnyyyhoooo.....

It is not about open-minded, liberal, moderate, conservative, who's right/wrong.

It is historical fact, on all accounts, plain and simple. To assume for this discussion that it is talking about the devil, would be like assuming for a discussion that John 3:16 was not talking about Jesus. Pure drivel and no point to it.

Yes, KJV Only people and even quite a few conservatives will be angered by this, but oh well. Facts are facts. Can't please everyone.

Done here.

 

[talitha]

1. I got the "open-minded" part from your siggie.
2. I believe it's actually about BOTH Nebuchadnezzar and the devil. That happens a lot in the Bible.
3. Never let it be said that I am KJV Only. I'm not even a hyper-conservative (since I believe that women can be ministers/preachers/pastors/elders).
4. I'm not angry at all.

 

[Resilient Mixedbreed]

According to Isaiah 14:12–14, the devil (and also the other fallen angels) fell from Heaven because he was arrogant and he wanted to be God.

However, this verse does not explain why demonic spirits tempt people today and influence them to do evil things. If they originally were arrogant beings who wanted to be God, what gave them the motivation to cause so much evil and suffering in this world?

According to gotquestions.org, "Finally, the Bible gives us no reason to believe that angels would repent even if God gave them the chance (1 Peter 5:8). The fallen angels seem completely devoted to opposing God and attacking God's people."

But why are they so devoted to causing so much evil and suffering in the world? The Bible says that God wants to get people saved because his plan is to bring us back to fellowship with him, because after sin came into the world, a lot of people turned away from God and started acting wicked and sinful.

The Bible tells us what motivates God and the angels, but the Bible never explains why evil spirits want to turn people away from God and influence them to act evil. Isaiah 14:12–14 explains that fallen angels are arrogant beings who want to be God, but it never says why they tempt people to sin and do evil things.

Demons are motivated to attack us because they want us in hell with them, they want to win souls for the devil, they have made their choice and now they want to influence ours.

 

[tchilld50]

According to Isaiah 14:12–14, the devil (and also the other fallen angels) fell from Heaven because he was arrogant and he wanted to be God.

However, this verse does not explain why demonic spirits tempt people today and influence them to do evil things. If they originally were arrogant beings who wanted to be God, what gave them the motivation to cause so much evil and suffering in this world?

According to gotquestions.org, "Finally, the Bible gives us no reason to believe that angels would repent even if God gave them the chance (1 Peter 5:8). The fallen angels seem completely devoted to opposing God and attacking God's people."

But why are they so devoted to causing so much evil and suffering in the world? The Bible says that God wants to get people saved because his plan is to bring us back to fellowship with him, because after sin came into the world, a lot of people turned away from God and started acting wicked and sinful.

The Bible tells us what motivates God and the angels, but the Bible never explains why evil spirits want to turn people away from God and influence them to act evil. Isaiah 14:12–14 explains that fallen angels are arrogant beings who want to be God, but it never says why they tempt people to sin and do evil things.

When tempted by sin, we often go along with it, bringing rebuke on God. People judge our lives by our actions, the things we say, the way we handle ourselves, and when we fail they say, "if that's a Christian I don't want to be one." We're human, make mistakes, that's why we keep trying.

Also, we are told satan is the "accuser of the brethren". Look what befell Job after satan paid a visit to God. As long as satan can keep us judging each other, fighting, angry, God can't use us. If He can't use us to witness to the lost, show them what His kingdom is like, people will refuse to believe. Remember the parable of the sower? The seed that was sown, but was only superficial, after time it withered away and died. That is the picture of a backslider. His intent is to take as many souls to hell as possible, to keep true believers from using the power Jesus gave us through the Holy Spirit. A defeated Christian has no energy, strength, peace, joy, hope, they are downcast, that's exactly what satan wants. He's patient, he'll use any opportunity, he'll use our families and friends, they are excellent weapons to defeat us. That's why we have to feed on the word of God, pray, lift each other up, "for when I was weak, then was I strong." Paul knew what he was talking about, he'd experienced it all, now we just need to pay attention to his teachings, and lay on the bosom of Jesus.

 

[food4thought]

According to Isaiah 14:12–14, the devil (and also the other fallen angels) fell from Heaven because he was arrogant and he wanted to be God.

However, this verse does not explain why demonic spirits tempt people today and influence them to do evil things. If they originally were arrogant beings who wanted to be God, what gave them the motivation to cause so much evil and suffering in this world?

According to gotquestions.org, "Finally, the Bible gives us no reason to believe that angels would repent even if God gave them the chance (1 Peter 5:8). The fallen angels seem completely devoted to opposing God and attacking God's people."

But why are they so devoted to causing so much evil and suffering in the world? The Bible says that God wants to get people saved because his plan is to bring us back to fellowship with him, because after sin came into the world, a lot of people turned away from God and started acting wicked and sinful.

The Bible tells us what motivates God and the angels, but the Bible never explains why evil spirits want to turn people away from God and influence them to act evil. Isaiah 14:12–14 explains that fallen angels are arrogant beings who want to be God, but it never says why they tempt people to sin and do evil things.

Fallen angels/demons/evil spirits are in opposition to God. Depending on how you interpret Isaiah 14, you could come away with the reason Satan fell, but the reason why he and those that follow him seek to harm people is not really answered there either way. I cannot think of a scripture passage that does actually answer that question, so you will probably get many different possibilities as answers.

That said, my view has been that these beings hate God (for whatever reason), yet they cannot hurt Him directly. Instead, they seek to do harm to the people that God loves, and cause Him sorrow by having to condemn the very people He died to save to eternal separation from Him. This is why the vast majority of demonic activity throughout the centuries has been attempts to subtley undermine faith in Jesus as Savior in one way, shape, or form. This is another reason why we do not see the blatant demonic activity that was present during Biblical times... if they revealed themselves openly, it would probably lead to more people believing in the Biblical record. That view has always made sense to me.

Hope this helps;
Mike

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Look what befell Job after satan paid a visit to God.

Actually, God came to him, and asked him what he had been doing. It was then God who brought up Job to be tested, not the other way around. God then gave Ha-satan permission to test Job, but within certain guidelines.

 

[thesunisout]

No.

Isaiah 14:12 is not about the devil. It is about the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II, as is the ENTIRE chapter of 14. The KJV got it wrong. Lucifer was used erroneously in that verse and has since been removed by modern, more accurate translations.

It's simply a false dichotomy to say that because lucifer may be a translation error that therefore the passage isn't referring to the devil. There are many reasons why people believe it is about the devil. In fact it is exactly because the passage is so obviously pointing towards the devil that people assume one of his names is lucifer.

 

[thesunisout]

According to Isaiah 14:12–14, the devil (and also the other fallen angels) fell from Heaven because he was arrogant and he wanted to be God.

However, this verse does not explain why demonic spirits tempt people today and influence them to do evil things. If they originally were arrogant beings who wanted to be God, what gave them the motivation to cause so much evil and suffering in this world?

According to gotquestions.org, "Finally, the Bible gives us no reason to believe that angels would repent even if God gave them the chance (1 Peter 5:8). The fallen angels seem completely devoted to opposing God and attacking God's people."

But why are they so devoted to causing so much evil and suffering in the world? The Bible says that God wants to get people saved because his plan is to bring us back to fellowship with him, because after sin came into the world, a lot of people turned away from God and started acting wicked and sinful.

The Bible tells us what motivates God and the angels, but the Bible never explains why evil spirits want to turn people away from God and influence them to act evil. Isaiah 14:12–14 explains that fallen angels are arrogant beings who want to be God, but it never says why they tempt people to sin and do evil things.

We see the unsaved are the devils slaves:

Hebrews 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
Hebrews 2:15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.

We also see that the devil is trying to prevent them from knowing about Jesus:

2 Corinthians 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

What is the devils motivation? You could boil it down to power. The more slaves he has, the more power he has in this world. When someone comes to know Jesus, they are set free from his slavery. So the reason he tempts and tries to damn people to hell is because he doesn't want to lose any of his slaves.

 

[Kemosabe]

NOTE: This isn't really worth spending a whole lot of time on.
But, if someone wants to force their private interpretation on us, I feel it's fair to ask for real documentation.

Primi Agminis: Isaiah was mocking him with words.

Are you removing God from the Bible? ... Apparently seems to be the goal.

These are prophetic scriptures; Isaiah wrote down what he was given.

You're trying to reduce the scriptures to just a story ... take God out.

Primi Agminis:
It is about Nebuchadnezzar II.
Ancient history 101.

Really?

"The prophecy concerns both
Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon, but principally Babylon, as Nebuchadnezzar was
already dead when the prophecy was fulfilled in 539 BC when Babylon fell
to Cyrus." (John Oakes, PhD)

NOTE: I'm not saying the above statement is correct ... just showing that you're offering an unlearned opinion.

Primi Agminis: Isaiah 14:12 is not about the devil.

That's simply your opinion.

Christian tradition, influenced by the Jewish presentation of the passage of Isaiah as applicable to Satan... (wikipedia)

There's a lot of ancient Jewish literature covering this period.

Primi Agminis: It is about the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II, as is the ENTIRE chapter of 14.

That's simply your opinion.

Since the body of text begins in chapter thirteen, we'd have to conclude it is a weak and uninformed opinion. (you're ignoring half the subject)

I mean, come on man; you don't even know where the subject starts! ... LOL...

Primi Agminis: The KJV got it wrong. Lucifer was used erroneously in that verse ...

That's not an honest statement.

H1966: Strong's Definition: From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer.

It's a direct one-word translation.

So, it's dishonest to say they got it wrong.

If we look up the root word, it appears to be very right.

H1984: Strong's Definition: A primitive root; to be clear (originally of sound, but usually of color); to shine ; hence to make a show ; to boast ; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish ; to rave ; causatively to celebrate ; also to stultify: - (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.

Primi Agminis: The KJV got it wrong. Lucifer was used erroneously in that verse and has since been removed by modern, more accurate translations.

That's a false statement.

At least the following translations contain ' Lucifer' ... King James Bible ... Jubilee Bible 2000 ... King James 2000 Bible ... American King James Version ... Douay-Rheims Bible ... Darby Bible Translation ... Webster's Bible Translation.

As far as "more accurate", that's just your opinion.

.

 

[tchilld50]

Actually, God came to him, and asked him what he had been doing. It was then God who brought up Job to be tested, not the other way around. God then gave Ha-satan permission to test Job, but within certain guidelines.

IMHO.....I think this isn't quite right. Here's the scripture Job 1:6-7 God didn't go to satan, he came to God. God knew he was up to no good, that he wanted to be equal with God, but he couldn't because Jesus made that impossible. He was jealous, spiteful, he was conning other angels to go along with his plan, that's what got them kicked out of heaven. From that time forth satan has done everything he can to make Jesus' death of no effect. He's constantly telling God how weak, unrighteous, still sinful, denying that God even exists, it's a waste of time trying to save us. Every one that does not serve God, serves him. He's intent on having as many members of his kingdom as possible. He doesn't realize just how defeated he really is, but he's going to find that out real soon.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

It's simply a false dichotomy to say that because lucifer may be a translation error that therefore the passage isn't referring to the devil. There are many reasons why people believe it is about the devil. In fact it is exactly because the passage is so obviously pointing towards the devil that people assume one of his names is lucifer.

No and simply wrong. KJV-Only are the ones left defending the archaic, albeit incorrect, position of Lucifer = Devil. Everyone else that uses a modern, more accurate translation, have come to terms with that fact. Besides, the rest is factual history. To argue otherwise just shows your lack of knowledge on the subject of ancient history.

Are you removing God from the Bible? ... Apparently seems to be the goal.

These are prophetic scriptures; Isaiah wrote down what he was given.

You're trying to reduce the scriptures to just a story ... take God out.

No. Not everything is prophetic. It was a story, plain and simple. Truthful but a story.

IMHO.....I think this isn't quite right. Here's the scripture Job 1:6-7 God didn't go to satan, he came to God. God knew he was up to no good, that he wanted to be equal with God, but he couldn't because Jesus made that impossible. He was jealous, spiteful, he was conning other angels to go along with his plan, that's what got them kicked out of heaven. From that time forth satan has done everything he can to make Jesus' death of no effect. He's constantly telling God how weak, unrighteous, still sinful, denying that God even exists, it's a waste of time trying to save us. Every one that does not serve God, serves him. He's intent on having as many members of his kingdom as possible. He doesn't realize just how defeated he really is, but he's going to find that out real soon.

NASB - Book of Job
2 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.”

3 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you [a]considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to [c]ruin him without cause.”

4 Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life.

5 However, put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face.”

6 So the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your [d]power, only spare his life.”

Key things here:
1. Satan, who's title means "the accuser/adversary," was moving about the earth, looking for those who need to be brought up on charges of unrighteousness and/or sin. That is his job.

2. In verse 3, it is God who brings up Job to be tested.

3. Ha-satan's response is that Job is only righteous because he has an easy life. God gives His permission for Job's faith/resolve to be tested, under the condition that Job himself can't be killed. Everything else is fair game.

I was wrong when I stated that God came to Ha-satan. It was he that went before God, with the rest of God's "sons."

As to the bold that I highlighted above, could you please post your verse references?

 

[Kemosabe]

Primi Agminis: (Isaiah) No. Not everything is prophetic. It was a story, plain and simple. Truthful but a story.

That's surprising ... not that you believe that ... surprising that you'd admit it!

First honest thing you've said.

And, of course, that makes you a Troll on this forum ... no surprise.

Apparently, just a cut-and-paste Troll ... You don't know enough of the history to come up with a good story.

At any rate, you're breaking Forum rules by posting on this sub-forum.

This sub-forum is restricted to certain agreements.

"We believe that Bible is the word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and the only authoritative and infallible rule of Christian faith and practice."

I'd be nice if you could move your topics to the appropriate forum ... I'd be surprised.

.

 

[thesunisout]

No and simply wrong. KJV-Only are the ones left defending the archaic, albeit incorrect, position of Lucifer = Devil. Everyone else that uses a modern, more accurate translation, have come to terms with that fact. Besides, the rest is factual history. To argue otherwise just shows your lack of knowledge on the subject of ancient history.

What your reply shows is that you missed the point entirely. The issue of whether Lucifer = Devil has no bearing about whether the passage is in fact about the Devil. That is why what you're saying is a false dichotomy. You are saying if Lucifer is a translation error then the passage isn't about the Devil, and that is false; your argument is logically fallacious. Whether it is a translation error or not has nothing to do with it.