A question about Isaiah 14:12–14.

[Vanguard PCD]

This answer is late, sorry for that.

Genesis 3:1-7 Spite towards God by deceiving His creation.

Those verses never say anything about a devil. It refers to a serpent; a type of beast/animal. That same serpent was physically changed in the same chapter.

Genesis 4:8 Jealousy came from the devil, not God.

Assumption. Those verses never say anything about a devil.

Hebrews 12:22 Shows 1/3 of an innumerable company of angels rebelled with satan.

That verse does not show or say anything about fallen angels. All it talks about is countless angels gathering for a festival in the city of God.

Matthew 4:1-11 satan did his best when he tried to get Jesus to bow down. This proves satan wanted to be God, he knows the scriptures, whats written in them, he was there when they were written.

The devil, this ha-satan, was just doing his job as the accuser/adversary. He was sent to tempt Jesus, and had Jesus faltered, the devil would have brought Him up on charges before God. Ha-satan did the same thing in the Book of Job. You really should study Hebrew to see what "Satan" means, as it is a Hebrew term.

Revelation 12:10 satan could care less what the lost do, but let a "Christian" do something wrong he's in heaven telling God all about it.

Again, ha-satan is the appointed accuser/adversary, doing his job. Here's the interesting thing...the KJV originally translated that chapter with the devil being thrown down INTO the earth, not ON the earth. The old medieval concept was that hell was inside the earth. That has since changed.

 

[Bobinator]

It is about Nebuchadnezzar II.

Neb II was the Babylonian King that conquered Jerusalem, burned down the temples, destroyed the autographs, imprisoned the Jews, and thought of himself as a Persian god. The Jews hated him with a burning passion.

The entire chapter is talking about his fall. In death, he was knocked off his high horse. He was not immortal, he was not above the heavens, he was nothing but a man that will now rot in his grave.

Isaiah was mocking him with words.

Ancient history 101.

There is no reference to Luke 10:18. That was an error on the part of the KJV and has since been revised.

"Lucifer" means "Bright Morning Star". Jesus called himself that in Revelations 22. In 1Corin. 15:45, Paul makes a comparison between Adam and Jesus, saying, "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

Adam was a son of God created perfect, but was reduced to a living soul. Jesus was the first born begotten of the Father and became a quickening Spirit. Are you referring to Nebuchadnezzar II as a son of God or Bright Morning Star? C'mon, dude!

 

[Vanguard PCD]

"Lucifer" means "Bright Morning Star". Jesus called himself that in Revelations 22. In 1Corin. 15:45, Paul makes a comparison between Adam and Jesus, saying, "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

Adam was a son of God created perfect, but was reduced to a living soul. Jesus was the first born begotten of the Father and became a quickening Spirit. Are you referring to Nebuchadnezzar II as a son of God or Bright Morning Star? C'mon, dude!

At least you recognize the correct translation and meaning of lucifer. You are also correct in that Jesus refers to Himself as the bright morning star.

The reference to Neb II in Isaiah 14:12 as a bright morning star, is a metaphor. I have already gone over this.

Edit: do not think that this is my theory that I just made up. This has been discussed for decades, if not centuries. I am not the only one that agrees with what I presented. Hebrew theologians will tell you the exact same thing, considering it was originally written in their language and it is their history. The ones that have a problem with it are typically the KJV only ultra conservatives.

 

[tchilld50]

Those verses never say anything about a devil. It refers to a serpent; a type of beast/animal. That same serpent was physically changed in the same chapter.



Assumption. Those verses never say anything about a devil.
Revelations 20:2 This says he was the devil.



That verse does not show or say anything about fallen angels. All it talks about is countless angels gathering for a festival in the city of God.
Rev. 12:4 I used the wrong verse, but most of the commentaries I've read refer to this scripture as the "rebellion" of the angels.

Jealousy is a sin, Able was guilty of it when he murdered his brother. All because his sacrifice wasn't as good as his brothers. God wouldn't create these feelings knowing it would bring the downfall of his creation.

The devil, this ha-satan, was just doing his job as the accuser/adversary. He was sent to tempt Jesus, and had Jesus faltered, the devil would have brought Him up on charges before God. Ha-satan did the same thing in the Book of Job. You really should study Hebrew to see what "Satan" means, as it is a Hebrew term.
Why did God need satan to tempt Job or Jesus? He knew Job's heart, and He had already said, during Jesus' baptism, "This is My beloved Son in whom I'm well pleased." God didn't need him to report what human's were doing, God saw it for Himself.


Again, ha-satan is the appointed accuser/adversary, doing his job. Here's the interesting thing...the KJV originally translated that chapter with the devil being thrown down INTO the earth, not ON the earth. The old medieval concept was that hell was inside the earth. That has since changed.

A lot of things change, but they're not always right. If my belief is wrong God will tell me by the Holy Spirit. See, I take what I read, hear, and then search the scripture to see if matches. No, I'm not a theologian, don't have a degree in religion, not ordained to preach, I'm just a daughter of God's who loves her Father. He has never steered me wrong in these last four decades, He's not going to start now.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

A lot of things change, but they're not always right. If my belief is wrong God will tell me by the Holy Spirit. See, I take what I read, hear, and then search the scripture to see if matches. No, I'm not a theologian, don't have a degree in religion, not ordained to preach, I'm just a daughter of God's who loves her Father. He has never steered me wrong in these last four decades, He's not going to start now.

Well, you go girl!

Out of curiousity, which English translation of the Bible do you consider to be "scripture"? I am assuming you can't read Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek. Most of us can't, so we have to rely on a translation.

Oh, and I believe in free will, which explains evil actions/choices. Humans are weak.

 

[tchilld50]

Those verses never say anything about a devil. It refers to a serpent; a type of beast/animal. That same serpent was physically changed in the same chapter.



Assumption. Those verses never say anything about a devil.



That verse does not show or say anything about fallen angels. All it talks about is countless angels gathering for a festival in the city of God.



The devil, this ha-satan, was just doing his job as the accuser/adversary. He was sent to tempt Jesus, and had Jesus faltered, the devil would have brought Him up on charges before God. Ha-satan did the same thing in the Book of Job. You really should study Hebrew to see what "Satan" means, as it is a Hebrew term.



Again, ha-satan is the appointed accuser/adversary, doing his job. Here's the interesting thing...the KJV originally translated that chapter with the devil being thrown down INTO the earth, not ON the earth. The old medieval concept was that hell was inside the earth. That has since changed.

Well, you go girl!

Out of curiousity, which English translation of the Bible do you consider to be "scripture"? I am assuming you can't read Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek. Most of us can't, so we have to rely on a translation.

Oh, and I believe in free will, which explains evil actions/choices. Humans are weak.

Old King James, New Kings James, New American Standard, some of the others veer too far from the actual words of the OKJV. I research online, ask questions of my friends, and read, read, read. If we don't test what we hear against what is written in God's word, we can be deceived into believing things that are not true. That's how cults work. They take enough scripture to appear "religious", but then twist them fit their agenda. We only have to look at the group Heavens Gate, the Branch Dividians, or Jim Jones to see this in action. So many people were fooled, and they all died for that belief. Free will didn't come into play until satan deceived Eve in the garden. She nor Adam knew what that was, they didn't even realize they were naked. It uses the word "beguiled", just another word for deceit. Proverbs 14:12 says it beautifully, another lie of satan's. The lost think hell is going to be a 24/7 party, sexual orgies, if it feels good do it. All you have to do is listen to their conversations, the denials of God's existence, you hear satan in every word they speak. I know, I was lost long before I was ever saved. The greatest compliment I've ever had, shortly after my husband and I married he rededicated his life to God. He told his former pastor, "I want what she has." I had the privilege of holding his hand as he went home to the Lord ten years ago this year. I know when my day comes, I too will go home to God. That's why it is vitally important we read, study, learn the scriptures. A soul is so valuable, irreplaceable, of such importance that Jesus died to save it.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Old King James, New Kings James, New American Standard, some of the others veer too far from the actual words of the OKJV.

Glad to see you use the NASB. It is my go-to translation in English. It is widely considered to be the most accurate, word for word translation in English. I am not a big fan of the KJV, but to each their own.

 

[AT7iLA]

Lucifer was Satan's name before he fell on earth. He was the covering cherub. His name changed to Satan because he was called the accuser.

Free will was the father of sin. Everyone has free will including the angels good and bad.

Sin = The misrepresentation of God's character.

Genesis says God told Adam and Eve they can freely eat of EVERY TREE except ONE. WIDE RANGE of freedom. Small window for restriction.

Satan says when you eat from the tree you will not surely die because you will be like God and your eyes will be open etc etc.

Satan misled Eve into thinking God's forbidden fruit was something God was just keeping away from Adam and Eve therefore misrepresenting God's character as a JUST God and now Satan got them thinking God is an UNFAIR God. This is why he is called Satan... He accuses God of being an unworthy, unjust, unfair God.

The mere ACT of sin is a result of our misrepresentation of God's character. This is why there is so much human suffering on earth. There is this 6000 year war that is going on till today. The book of Revelation is where the climax of this war is written.

The more people Satan and his demons lead astray from God the more God hurts... Because God loves us all and he doesn't want us to die the eternal death.

Think of it like a parent loosing his kids....... God is LONG SUFFERING, the bible states... all because his children fell to sin.

He cares about us.

Hence the warning about Babylon the Great in the end times. "Get out of her, MY PEOPLE!" He exclaims.

 

[abysmul]

Lucifer was Satan's name before he fell on earth. He was the covering cherub. His name changed to Satan because he was called the accuser.

Do you know of any place (an on line link is fine) that spells this out clearly with scripture? (If you do, thanks for a link!)

 

[Kemosabe]

Primi Agminis : Correction, prophecy. Singular. One verse. Numerous scholars and theologians agree with me.

Still waiting for you to back up what you say.

You have a tendency to run and hide when asked to prove what you're saying.

Show me the writing of any the Numerous scholars and theologians who say that all but one verse, in Isaiah, is prophecy; and the one verse is a story.

It sounds childish too me, but I stand ready to be corrected.

.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Still waiting for you to back up what you say.

You have a tendency to run and hide when asked to prove what you're saying.

Show me the writing of any the Numerous scholars and theologians who say that all but one verse, in Isaiah, is prophecy; and the one verse is a story.

It sounds childish too me, but I stand ready to be corrected.

.

I will say it ONCE, since it pertains to the subject...

I do not answer to obvious trolls, nor do I respond to ultimatums. I am not running from you...I am simply ignoring you because I am not going to waste my time on you.

For everyone else, feel free to ask away.

 

[Kemosabe]

Primi Agminis : I will say it ONCE, since it pertains to the subject...

I do not answer to obvious trolls, nor do I respond to ultimatums. I am not running from you...I am simply ignoring you because I am not going to waste my time on you.

For everyone else, feel free to ask away.

In other words, you don't back up what you say.

Instead, you just throw another temper tantrum when you get caught in a truth challenged moment.

How close was I ... I guessed you're thirteen?

.

 

[Kemosabe]

... wrong thread ...

 

[Sammy-San]

Fallen angels/demons/evil spirits are in opposition to God. Depending on how you interpret Isaiah 14, you could come away with the reason Satan fell, but the reason why he and those that follow him seek to harm people is not really answered there either way. I cannot think of a scripture passage that does actually answer that question, so you will probably get many different possibilities as answers.

That said, my view has been that these beings hate God (for whatever reason), yet they cannot hurt Him directly. Instead, they seek to do harm to the people that God loves, and cause Him sorrow by having to condemn the very people He died to save to eternal separation from Him. This is why the vast majority of demonic activity throughout the centuries has been attempts to subtley undermine faith in Jesus as Savior in one way, shape, or form. This is another reason why we do not see the blatant demonic activity that was present during Biblical times... if they revealed themselves openly, it would probably lead to more people believing in the Biblical record. That view has always made sense to me.

Hope this helps;
Mike

Why do you think satan tempted adam and eve? Was it so they would go to hell?

 

[food4thought]

Why do you think satan tempted adam and eve? Was it so they would go to hell?

I am not sure, honestly. Was hell even created at that point? Unanswerable question. I will say that Satan hated God and knew that getting Adam and Eve to sin would break their fellowship with God, causing God sorrow. Satan may have thought that God would destroy them outright at that time... I just don't know for sure.

 

[now faith]

"Lucifer" means "Bright Morning Star". Jesus called himself that in Revelations 22. In 1Corin. 15:45, Paul makes a comparison between Adam and Jesus, saying, "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

Adam was a son of God created perfect, but was reduced to a living soul. Jesus was the first born begotten of the Father and became a quickening Spirit. Are you referring to Nebuchadnezzar II as a son of God or Bright Morning Star? C'mon, dude!

The King James has the correct terminology on this text.
But the modern versions may just need a modern God to understand their mistakes.

 

[now faith]

At least you recognize the correct translation and meaning of lucifer. You are also correct in that Jesus refers to Himself as the bright morning star.

The reference to Neb II in Isaiah 14:12 as a bright morning star, is a metaphor. I have already gone over this.

Edit: do not think that this is my theory that I just made up. This has been discussed for decades, if not centuries. I am not the only one that agrees with what I presented. Hebrew theologians will tell you the exact same thing, considering it was originally written in their language and it is their history. The ones that have a problem with it are typically the KJV only ultra conservatives.

Does a Christian Deist believe that Christ was and is God with us?

 

[now faith]

I will say it ONCE, since it pertains to the subject...

I do not answer to obvious trolls, nor do I respond to ultimatums. I am not running from you...I am simply ignoring you because I am not going to waste my time on you.

For everyone else, feel free to ask away.

Ok have you read the statement of faith for this fourm?

A few things to know about non-denominational Christians:

• A non-denominational Christian church is one that is autonomous and not under a central authority (i.e. governing board, Magesterium, Patriarchs) on matters of doctrine, ordination, policy or discipline. They may, however, be part of an association to share resources.
• We believe that Bible is the word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and the only authoritative and infallible rule of Christian faith and practice.
• We believe in the Triune nature of God (Trinitarianism) and therefore the topic of non-Trinitarianism may not be discussed in this forum. Please discuss this topic in the Controversial Theology forum.
• We believe the only true basis of Christian fellowship is Christ's (agape) love, which is greater than differences one may possess, and without which we have no right to claim ourselves Christians.
• Salvation is by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ who died for our sins and rose again, providing eternal redemption to those who believe. It is not by our works or works of the law. (Eph 2: 8-9)
• Since salvation is by grace, promotion of the doctrine of salvation by works and Saturday (seventh-day) worship is not allowed. Please discuss these topics in Sabbath and The Law forum.

Non Trinitarian viewpoints may not be discussed in this fourm.