A question about Heaven

[Sorn]

Christians love Christ and walk in the light. They ask for forgiveness, and keep following their Savior. Churches don't invite hypocrites to leave. If they are willing to hear the truth, God may convert them. The Holy Spirit convicts Christians.


hypocrite
1 : a person who pretends to have virtues or qualities that he or she does not have

2 : a person whose actions contradict their stated beliefs or feelings
Definition of hypocrite - Merriam-Webster's Student Dictionary


1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

what about:
Romans 7:15-20.

Was Paul a hypocrite and hence not a Christian?

 

[joshua 1 9]

is actually used 17 times in NT Scripture, and only once is it used to describe the harvest of the faithful at Christ's 2nd coming.

Paul is clear that in the rapture we are caught up to meet the Lord in the Air. Paul personally had this experience when he was caught up to Heaven. This is different from when Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives and His feet actually touch the ground. That is why they talk about a pre trib second coming and a post trib third coming. At first Jesus comes for His church and then 7 years later He returns with His church. That is when He establishes HIS Kingdom here on the Earth. Everyone is raptured out of here when they die. They leave their physical body behind. This is clearly different from the resurrection. When Jesus was resurrected His physical body was raised up from the dead.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Not clearing anything up for me at all.

Then I do not have anything else for you if there is that much of a break down in communication.

 

[Bro. Dave Gardner]

Paul is clear that in the rapture we are caught up to meet the Lord in the Air. Paul personally had this experience when he was caught up to Heaven. This is different from when Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives and His feet actually touch the ground. That is why they talk about a pre trib second coming and a post trib third coming. At first Jesus comes for His church and then 7 years later He returns with His church. That is when He establishes HIS Kingdom here on the Earth. Everyone is raptured out of here when they die. They leave their physical body behind. This is clearly different from the resurrection. When Jesus was resurrected His physical body was raised up from the dead.

There can be no doubt that the act of raising a dead person to life is distinct from taking him to heaven. But it has long been my experience that an enthusiastic and insistent use of the term "rapture" is inexorably attached to a brand of eschatology which I find so convoluted and contrary to the plain reading of Scripture and even at odds with God's very character that I can scarcely believe that even I, myself (however ignorantly and loosely), once assented to it. To embrace it intellectually requires a performance of mental gymnastics of which I, personally, am incapable. Perhaps it is my lack which causes this, but I can't even comprehend it from an objective standpoint. I guess it's impossible for one to accept what they can't grasp.

Frankly, I'm puzzled that you have nothing to say about the conspicuous absence of the word "rapture" from virtually all English Bibles and from common Bible study tools (to which you brought attention) pre-dating the early 20th century. And equally confusing is the fact that you continue to insist that physical bodies are left behind at our ascension (as if repitition and disjointed Hebrew tutorials will surely create convincing evidence rather than mere propaganda), but you offer no clear and plain Bible testimony supporting this claim. The teaching of Bible doctrine requires no quasi-intellectual machinations or rhetoric. This is how communication breaks down.

 

[joshua 1 9]

But it has long been my experience that an enthusiastic and insistent use of the term "rapture" is inexorably attached to a brand of eschatology which I find so convoluted and contrary to the plain reading of Scripture

Does this mean you do not believe in a pre trib rapture? John the Baptist said: "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?" What do you think John meant by this? Just what coming wrath were they seeking to flee from?

To often we walk into the middle of a story. If you are confused then go back to the beginning and start from there.

 

[Rescued One]

what about:
Romans 7:15-20.

Was Paul a hypocrite and hence not a Christian?

Did Paul teach anyone to sin? Was he deceitful about his failures?

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

1 Corinthians 6
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Is there any difference between a Christian and a non-Christian?

2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2 Corinthians 7
5 For, when we were come into Macedonia, our flesh had no rest, but we were troubled on every side; without were fightings, within were fears. 6 Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming of Titus; 7 And not by his coming only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the more. 8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. 9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Galatians 5
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Matthew 7
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

 

[Sorn]

Did Paul teach anyone to sin? Was he deceitful about his failures?

Isn't that pretty much what i said?:
"What matters is how do they change over time, what effort do they make to change their ways and what impact does their hypocrisy have on them and others. Are they themselves aware of it and do they make an effort to change not to mention repent?"

No one likes hypocrisy (especially in others), but it is a sin like any other.
Of course hypocrisy from someone in a position of influence or power (eg pharisees etc in Jesus's day) has the capacity to cause more damage, or influence people in a negative manner, so these people have an onus on them to be more vigilant against hypocrisy on their part.

 

[Sorn]

Phoebe Ann said: ↑
Did Paul teach anyone to sin? Was he deceitful about his failures?

Also, remember that the scribes etc were not teaching people how to sin, on the contrary, their job was to teach people how to live to uphold the law and so not sin.
However, in their case, they then did things through loop holes in the law and contrivances, that ended up being self serving and against the spirit of the law if not the letter of the law. Things like taking widows homes etc, would all be justifiable by the law as it was taught but not justifiable by the spirit of the law plus it was self serving, hence the hypocrisy that angered Jesus so much plus the effect that they were in a position where their hypocrisy could damage many lives.

Paul was a sinner until he died, saved but still a sinner and he sinned until he died. Yes, his good works far outshone his sins but he still sinned, he totally admits it.
Furthermore, if he did not teach others to sin but sinned himself (ie he said don't do this but then he goes and does it) then that is by definition, hypocrisy.

The scale and effect of the sin matters as to how much Jesus might rebuke someone but any sin is enough to separate a person from God.

 

[Bro. Dave Gardner]

Does this mean you do not believe in a pre trib rapture?

Why would I? Are you shocked? I don't do modern pop Theology. I'm a Protestant historicist. Not preterist or futurist.

What do you think John meant by this?

I'm into the plain reading of Scripture compared with Scripture. Unless evidence of symbolism is very compelling. We're on totally different hermeneutical planes. We should probably call it a day.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Why would I? Are you shocked?

If you want to go through the tribulation period that is your choice to make. Does not much pertain to me because I will be so close to 80 by then that God would have to keep me alive long enough to see the rapture. I do believe the resurrection power of God is working in me to prepare me for that day when Jesus comes for His Church.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus is the Way.

John 10:1
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

God's Purpose and Word and Plan all in perfect Harmony agree.
Thus it is crucial, life and death, to DO what Jesus Says to Do.

Weymouth New Testament
"Strain every nerve to force your way in through the narrow gate," He answered; "for multitudes, I tell you, will endeavour to find a way in and will not succeed.

World English Bible
"Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in, and will not be able.

Young's Literal Translation
'Be striving to go in through the straight gate, because many, I say to you, will seek to go in, and shall not be able;[/QUOTE]

 

[A Realist]

Does not much pertain to me because I will be so close to 80 by then....

By when?

 

[Bro. Dave Gardner]

If you want to go through the tribulation period that is your choice to make.

What makes you think I have a choice? (rhetorical question)

Does not much pertain to me because I will be so close to 80 by then that God would have to keep me alive long enough to see the rapture.

And the hits just keep on coming.

So you hold to some date-setting brand of dispensationalism, do you?
(I can't keep up with the rampant pluralism in play in modern Christendom.)

This is not actually directed at you, personally, but if I live to be 1000 (figure of speech) I'll never figure out how bright, intelligent human beings manage to get themselves involved in such fanciful models of what is actually a simple conflict between Christ and Satan over who has the right to govern. But, then, since Satan/Lucifer is probably the most intelligent created being who ever lived, I guess it's actually no wonder, in a way. But you would think that the fact that Christ created Lucifer would make the whole thing a non-starter. Oh, well; back to the drawing board. The mystery of iniquity marches on, for now.

 

[Kris Jordan]

Does everyone who winds up in Heaven get the same reward? Let's say a Christian who truly believes, but hasn't managed to help lead another soul to Christ. Would their reward be the same as one who led thousands of souls to Christ?

Hi Emmylouwho,

There are at least nineteen verses in the New Testament that refer to believers receiving rewards for their faithful actions/deeds/works, with the greatest of those rewards being eternal life for having trusted Jesus for forgiveness and salvation. Although the Bible does not specify exactly what all of those rewards will be, it does identify various crowns, a “prophet’s reward” and a “righteous man’s reward”.

The various rewards and/or crowns dispersed to believers will be handed out during the judgment seat of Christ, when believers stand before God to give an account for what they did with what they were given on earth. This final judgment does not take place immediately after an individual's death, but rather when the world, and everything in it, has come to an end. This delay is perhaps allowed so that the full, long-term effect of each believer’s earthly choices and actions can come to fruition before they receive their final reward since a person's death does not necessarily bring an end to the impact that their works have on the earth. Therefore, God will wait to administer judgment until the end of all things has taken place, so that the full effect of those works may be seen, accounted for and rewarded accordingly.

Believers will not stand before Jesus to give an account for their sin because sin has been forgiven, paid for by the blood that Jesus shed (Hebrews 8:12; Psalm 103:12). However, believers will give an account for each work performed and the motivation behind it, each act being tested by God’s fire for genuineness and authenticity. Those which survive the test will earn a reward; those which are burned up will result in loss, although not the loss of salvation. Believers will instead suffer the loss of a reward they could have received, and the joy that could have resulted, had they been faithful with all that God had given them.

(Scripture references available upon request -- too lengthy to list here)

 

[Sorn]

Hi Emmylouwho,

There are at least nineteen verses in the New Testament that refer to believers receiving rewards for their faithful actions/deeds/works, with the greatest of those rewards being eternal life for having trusted Jesus for forgiveness and salvation. Although the Bible does not specify exactly what all of those rewards will be, it does identify various crowns, a “prophet’s reward” and a “righteous man’s reward”.

If eternal life is given to everyone who is saved then its not really a reward or should at least be distinguished from the other 'lesser' rewards.
You could think of it as a cake. The cake represents eternal life and everyone who is saved gets a cake.
However the toppings & icings on the cake differ and what topping/icing is on your cake is your reward for your good works or not as the case may be.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If eternal life is given to everyone who is saved then its not really a reward or should at least be distinguished from the other 'lesser' rewards.
You could think of it as a cake. The cake represents eternal life and everyone who is saved gets a cake.
However the toppings & icings on the cake differ and what topping/icing is on your cake is your reward for your good works or not as the case may be.

This illustrates fairly well , I think, a concept of salvation that may not be what is in Scripture - that 'getting saved' is like buying a cake - buy the cake and it is yours - get saved, and salvation is yours...
instead of daily being nurtured and cared for by the Shepherd as long as His Voice is Heard....
(and having a new heart and new mind , renewed daily in Christ)....

 

[mmksparbud]

If you want to go through the tribulation period that is your choice to make. Does not much pertain to me because I will be so close to 80 by then that God would have to keep me alive long enough to see the rapture. I do believe the resurrection power of God is working in me to prepare me for that day when Jesus comes for His Church.

It is not a personal choice! God either will take the church before the tribulation or He will not and we have no say in the matter. Keep one thing in mind. God never took anyone out of trouble---He helped them through it. From the flood on, Noah and the family had to go through the flood, but they were protected. It is very much like the Passover. The Jews went through it too, but God protected them from the plagues, they were not removed from Egypt during the plagues. And if you read it, the 1st 3 plagues fell on everybody---the last seven fell only on the Egyptians. The last plagues of the tribulation are those same 7 plagues, and God will once again protect His people from them, not carry them away. He has always helped us through our trials and tribulations, not taken us away from them.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It is not a personal choice! God either will take the church before the tribulation or He will not and we have no say in the matter.

What if misconceptions and misdirection and misunderstandings are taking place ? As in - what if "God" (Yahuweh Sovereign Creator) has nothing to do with brick and mortar religious / politic groups ? What if Jesus returns for "Ekklesia", wherever they are, when He Returns ? As Jesus Says: Will He find faith on earth when He Returns ?

 

[mmksparbud]

What if misconceptions and misdirection and misunderstandings are taking place ? As in - what if "God" (Yahuweh Sovereign Creator) has nothing to do with brick and mortar religious / politic groups ? What if Jesus returns for "Ekklesia", wherever they are, when He Returns ? As Jesus Says: Will He find faith on earth when He Returns ?

God is God, He will do as He says He will do. He does not change, He knows the heart. At the appointed time, He will say, It is done.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

When It is done--everyone will have made their final choice--no turning back, no 2nd chances.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

 

[brinny]

This quote below comes to mind for me, as well as this verse below.

(Isn't seeing God's face EXACTLY what it's all about? )

"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." ~Matt 5:8