A question about God and Satan

[razeontherock]

the point of Job is to show that God makes a bet

You didn't get that idea from reading the book so fess up, which Prof taught you that?

until Job's faith fails... that was a test he was never going to pass

Job's Faith did NOT fail Job passed the test. Again, what College Prof taught you this blasphemy? You never would have gotten these ideas from reading the book. We have a College Prof in this very sub-forum right now, trying to argue the whole liberal education slant; wow does he ever need to read this!

 

[razeontherock]

surely after eating that fruit having eternal punishment in hell is overkill enough rather than also having murderers and rapists on the loose in this life too?

Hi Mike! So then you're saying you feel some duty to stop a thief, murderer or rapist in their tracks if you should witness such a thing? GOOD. Cause that's G-d's plan

 

[thatotherguy]

i did read it but it was a long time ago now

and his faith does fail he asks why god did it (or let it happen) to him and we all know thou shalt not put the lord thy God to the test deuteronomy something:something

 

[thatotherguy]

yes but what i'm saying is that god doesn't stick my the morals a good God would have i.e. preventing suffering

 

[razeontherock]

No, you're simply asking a VERY important question: why does a good G-d let bad things happen to good people? There are any number of different ways of asking that question, it just so happens that way is the title of a book. (One book, out of any number of books written on the subject)

The point being, this is answerable. I think it's important for you to find your answers for that! And you could begin with the oldest book of the Bible, and see my point that Job (a contemporary of Abraham, pre-dating Moses by some 400 years) didn't "put the Lord to the test," and that G-d didn't make a bet with satan. That last part will take you all of chapter 1 to read and see conclusively.

The KJV reads "thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." You can take my word for it that he didn't if you want, but proving that one to yourself won't be so easy. So of you take it upon yourself to read the whole book, which can be done in an evening, notice how Job's 3 "friends" are idiots, and the fourth is a type of Christ, sent in answer to Job's plea for "an intercessor to lay His hand upon man and G-d." A fascinating read no doubt, but nowhere will you find Job tempt G-d. Even though there was no commandment against it. (Hmmm, so how'd he know that?)

 

[solarwave]

i completely agree, you create a species (us) that has no concept of rape or murder or you format the male brain to only be aroused with consent from the partner. for an all powerful god that's easy and for an all knowing one all 3 ideas must have already occurred to him and he just decided to ignore them... once again, God is not good.

These are good ideas, except that you are only consider how these changes to a human would affect murder or rape. For example you say God could make humans so that we are only aroused when there is consent. The problem with this could be that you don't get consent from someone until you ask for it, and you don't ask for it unless you want it, and you don't want it unless you are aroused or want a child for just logical reasons. Also considering that humans evolved from animals, arousal would seem necessary.

The above is just an example that if you make one change it can have huge effects making the change actually not possible.

 

[Emmy]

Dear thatotherguy. How were Adam and Eve tempted away from God and His Love? We are all made in God`s image, through Adam and Eve we ( inherited) know the difference between Good and Not Good, we are the only beings in this Universe who can think and reason. The Tempter, in the guise of a Serpent, brought forward the day when Adam and Eve were banned to Earth, to learn to love God as God should be loved, our Heavenly Father who wants loving children/sons and daughters, to live with Him and each other for eternity. We all know what happened then, the Bible, God`s Word to Man tells us. Mankind moved too far away from God, and we needed a Saviour, and Jesus became our Saviour. Jesus became the Prize we could not be, Jesus the only Man without sin or transgression. He only could pay what God`s Law demanded, pure and unblemished Blood to wash away our Sins. Jesus died that we might live, Jesus God-Son, born by Mary a Sinless Virgin. God chose Mary as the Vessel to bring forth our Saviour, who lived ca. 30 years as Jesus our God-Man. Jesus showed us God as God really is, our loving Heavenly Father who wants us back again for eternity. Jesus paid for our sins, yet we have to pay a price too, we are told again and again in the Bible: " Repent," change our selfish and unloving character for: Loving God with all our beings, and loving our neighbour as ourselves. Straightforward and easy to remember, yet not easily accomplished, our tastes for selfishness and wilfullness have grown and grown. We are on this earth to learn to overcome many sorts of temptations, and our great selfishness. We live in an imperfect world, where temptations of all sorts surround us day and night. We have Jesus to help and guide us, and we have the Holy Spirit to empower us with His Love. We have much time to get better and better, and we will stumble and fail often. Jesus told us to" ask and we will be given," and we have God who will forgive us as we forgive others. God is Love, and Satan is everything BUT LOVE. God has given us free will, we choose whom to follow: God who loves us, or Satan the great deceiver, who wants minions to overthrow LOVE. I say this with love, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[bling]

@bling doesn't that really go against the whole "God is good" thing? God hurting innocent people? it then becomes a question of is it the gun that kills or the person wielding it?

This is a huge topic I could write a book on it.

What you and every mature adult has asked and is wanting: “Why would a Loving God not put us all in a Garden of Eden type situation with everything we would ever want and live forever?”
God addresses that question very early on with third chapter in the bible, since God knows you and everyone else would ask.

What God gives us is a hypothetical (or real) situation, where the best possible man and woman are placed in such a paradise situation. These two have the best bodies you can imagine (with the help of one tree’s fruit could last forever), they have the best brains you could have (no bad mutations) and they have been raised to adulthood by the best parent (God has programmed them with all the knowledge they could have and possible could need) and there was only one little thing given for them to do wrong.

As Good as this Adam and Eve were, they were not “perfect” like God and Christ are since they were created beings. The one thing they lacked was Godly type Love which cannot be programmed into them (instinctive) since that love would be like a robotic love and God cannot just force them to take this Love since that would be like a shoot gun wedding with God holding the shoot gun. Godly type Love is need to correctly obey, so they need it. This Godly type Love is huge since it compels God to do everything He does do it is the most powerful force in all universe. This Love is what compelled God to make humans in the first place, for the sake of those humans that would obtain this Love and thus become like God Himself (God is Love). God is extending Godly type Love to them, but there is a problem, since Adam and Eve have done no wrong they would receive God’s Love as good children accepting the love of a wonderful parent and not accept it as Godly type Love. The problem is to accept Godly type Love you are really accepting a unconditional, undeserving, free gift (Charity). Humans do not like to accept Charity since that requires humility (we have needed egos to protect) and for Adam and Eve there is no reason for them to be humble they have done everything right.

Bottom line is we (and Adam and Eve) can see from the story that a Garden of Eden type situation is a louse place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

God has shown He would like us to be in a Garden type situation and will provide heaven as an even better place, but God quenches His desire to provide an earth to help those that will accept God’s help since they need to have: lots of hardship, tragedies, sin, hell and Christ going to the cross to provide the best place for man to accept God’s Love humbly.

That is a breaf answer.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

and his faith does fail he asks why god did it (or let it happen) to him and we all know thou shalt not put the lord thy God to the test deuteronomy something:something

You're showing a very poor understanding of Job, both of it's context and style.

Job is ANE wisdom literature written by a non-Hebrew poet; it is not meant as a theological discourse or academic answer to the problem of evil. Satan in Job is not the same Satan mentioned in the texts such as the New Testament. The author of Job was aware of the supernatural but was absolutely not a Jew; there is no mention of Moses, Abraham or the Abrahamic covenant or the name YHWH. It's likely it was penned by n exceptional student of an ANE wisdom school, was read by the Hebrews and added to their canon after they saw how powerful of a narrative it is. It's by far some of the (if not the) best ANE poetry there is.

Job is not intended as a theological treatise; it is wisdom literature, and not intended to be taken absolutely literally. Wisdom literature relies on metaphors, poetry and other devices to get a point across, and not to demonstrate the literal goings-on of whatever is in question. Other examples of Wisdom Literature include Ecclesiastes, Proverbs, Song of Solomon, as well as ancient non-biblical sources such as Aesop’s Fables and vast bodies of Egyptian Wisdom Literature. They all consistently seek to convey an idea for understanding, not necessarily a literal fact for academic dissection.

To read Job as a literal theological study of a dialogue between Satan and God or how God punishes or rewards people is NOT the intent here. Faithfulness is the subject here; the absolute faithfulness of Job, and the absolute faithfulness of God.

The verse you refer to about not putting God to the test refers to basically not being an idiot in testing God; ie jumping off a building because you think God will catch you. We are told to reason with God, to test Him in things. Asking questions of God is encouraged in the Scripture.

 

[thatotherguy]

Thanks guys you've all given me a lot to think about.
i'll have to go digging out my dusty bible lol
if i think about some good responses i'll be sure to come back to you

 

[razeontherock]

Satan in Job is not the same Satan mentioned in the texts such as the New Testament.

How do you know, and what's the difference?

 

[drich0150]

God is all powerful, Satan is not
God is all knowing, Satan is not
God is everywhere at every time, Satan is not

Based on these assumptions how can anything Satan ever do not be seen in advance and stopped by God?
How can Satan ever cause the slightest inconvenience to God and His plan?

Why do you assume that Satan can do anything that has not been approved by God? Look at the example we are given in the book of Job. God had to invite Satan to tempt Job, and when Satan wanted to step things up, He had to ask God in order to do so.

I Believe you are giving Satan too much credit. The Evil that is found in this world is not of Satan, it is spawn and nurtured in the Heart of Man. Like any true evil person we look to pass our blame to someone else.

Why Does God allow Evil? It's apart of the whole free will thing.