A question about divorce

[Hisgirl]

Good ... very good!

I don't think you are being harsh, I want an honest discussion on the subject.

I believe marriage in not a ceremony but a sexual union between a man and a woman.

If I have never married but have had multiple partners but repented, should I now get married to a woman who is a virgin. In God's eyes, am I not still married to those other women? If I marry this wonderful God-fearing woman, am I not defiling her?

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Do you believe you are now forgiven? God says in Isaiah 43 " “ I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake;
And I will not remember your sins.
26 Put Me in remembrance;
Let us contend together;
State your case, that you may be acquitted."

If God sees you as cleansed from your sins because of the righteousness of Jesus, then you are cleansed. If a woman has repented, she too is cleansed.

 

[4Christ2]

In the light of Jesus' words in Matt. 5:32, knowing that we are under the Blood of Christ, how are we to justify a divorce?

I am not putting this out to start a big argument, I just want some of you theologians out there to help me understand.

Also, I am not devorced, and I do not see a divorced person as lost. I don't think the church at large does either, because there are divorced pastors, and deacons.

In keeping with the OP question... where is the justification for divorce?

Justification – a reason or circumstance, that justifies an action or attitude

justifies - to serve as an acceptable reason or excuse for something
- to give a reason or explanation why something was done

There are several excuses for "divorce" -
"I can't live this way any longer."
"I don't have feelings for her/him anymore."
"I shouldn't have married this person."
"I'm not happy."
"God wants me happy."
"He's a brute." "She's a shrew."
"He/she is an alcoholic."
"He doesn't help me with anything ..I do everything."
"She doesn't give me enough sex. I have needs."

And ALL of these "justifications" for divorce are valid. These "justifications" come from our HARDNESS OF HEART (unforgiveness). Therefore, Moses allowed for divorce. Deut. 24.

Jesus said, BUT..."from the beginning [of creation], it was not so. A man is to leave his father and mother and cleave1692 unto his wife and the two become one flesh.
Strong's
dâbaq
'daw-bak'
[/I]A primitive root; properly to impinge, that is, cling or adhere; figuratively to catch by pursuit: - abide, fast, cleave (fast together), follow close (hard, after), be joined (together), keep (fast), overtake, pursue hard, stick, take.

Therefore we CAN justify divorce as christians. Divorce is obviously allowed. Are we forgiven for divorcing? I believe YES - when we repent of it.

My question then becomes - Has one truly repented of "divorce"? Repentance - to recognize the wrong in something you have done and be sorry about it
- to feel regret about a sin or past actions and change your ways or habits Encarta Dict. (Eng)
Strongs' Greek/Hebrew...
G3341
μετάνοια
metanoia
met-an'-oy-ah
From G3340; (subjectively) compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication reversal (of [another’s] decision): - repentance.

 

[Raph]

Do you believe you are now forgiven? God says in Isaiah 43 " “ I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake;
And I will not remember your sins.
26 Put Me in remembrance;
Let us contend together;
State your case, that you may be acquitted."

If God sees you as cleansed from your sins because of the righteousness of Jesus, then you are cleansed. If a woman has repented, she too is cleansed.

While I believe that the grace of God and the blood of Christ can erase the eternal consequences of my actions if I turn from my sin but I do not think it can free me from the fruit of my actions. For example Say I am an ambassador from an another country with full diplomatic rights. if I kill someone, repentance can free me from the eternal effect of my action between me and God but does repentance restore the person back to life. If other ambassadors see my crime and then see me worship before the Lord with joy and gladness because I have made peace with God in my heart, why should they not do likewise?

God my free me for my actions of breaking His laws in the eternal sense but I do not think being justified by grace gives me the free me from the earthly consequences of my actions. As an ambassador of Christ, am I not charged to represent Him on earth. If I continual to misrepresent His Kingdom, will I not be recalled? Will I not be stripped of my diplomatic rights?

Therefore, if the blood of Christ does bring my past victims to life should I stop murdering and if will not erase the physical consequences of my murder why then it would erase the physical consequences of marriage. If children are produced by these past marriages, does the blood of Christ wash them away too. Am I no longer these children's' farther and free of any responsibility for them, I think not!

I do not think that God's grace erases my responsibilities as a farther any more than it erases the responsibilities I have to my past marriages (sexual encounters). My divorce (or separation) from these past relationships has a cost. People should be aware of the cost so they will not follow everyone into the same hole. The cost is I am no longer free to marry. If I really love them, then I will not defile them. That my physical and emotional wants do not give me the right to lead others into the same trap.

 

[Yitzchak]

My question then becomes - Has one truly repented of "divorce"?

I believe that repentance involves action. There is the concept of restitution. If I stole 20 dollars and repented , I would repay the money if at all possible.

Secondly , Teshuvah , the hebrew word for repentance carries with it the concept of a process. Christians have focused primarially on the crisis moment of decision when it comes to repentance. But in reality , repentance is a process that has many decision points. Repentance is an attitude, an openess to keep going in the right direction step by step. true repentance may take years to work itself out fully. If you research this out , you will find this is biblical. Salvation is not just a one time decision , but it is process lived out with many points of counting the cost and rededication.

In the context of this discussion. I believe that true repentance means action. When other people suffer because of my sins and it is in my power to alleviate that suffering , I should do so. This might be financial. Going beyond the bare minimum prescribed by law. It may mean apologies or taking the blame before relatives or friends and church people. There are plenty of right actions that can be taken as a part of the process of repentance.

The thing I see a lot of is this. Someone says they repent and they probably do at that moment. But then they fail to live in that attitude of repentance and so when points of decision come along the way , they feel that it is no longer their responsibility anymore to take action. their repantance is true but incomplete.

God will release us and let us know when our repentance is complete if we are open to it.

I don't believe however that repentance involves remarrying our divorced spouse. Or remaining single now.

 

[JimB]

Yes, but in practical terms, how does this idea of “restitution” apply to divorce and remarriage today? Are you saying that a divorced/remarried person, in order to fully “repent”, must make restitution to their original mate? What if the original husband/wife filed for the divorce and/or does not want restitution? Then what is the person seeking repentance to do? What if the situation is more involved than that? What if, years later, after a divorced person remarries and builds a happy home with children with someone else but wants to “repent” of his divorce? Does he then have to divorce his present wife and abandon his children in order to seek restitution of the original wife even if she is happily married to another and wants no part of it? How does this apply to numerous divorces?

These are the real (albeit non-theological) questions divorced/remarried face in following your advice.

~Jim

And now let us pray for good luck.​

 

[momcani1]

I think that there are only two reasons for a Christian's to divorce. I myself am divorced. My first husband left me and we ended up getting divorced. I think that even if you are in an adultress situation that you can forgive but it does take alot of work to get back to the trust and to even work on what lead the other member to stray. But if one of you leaves the faith or one becomes an Christian and the other doesn't, well that takes even more work and a lot of prayer given patience. I think that we should take each situation on an indivual basis and remember that no one and nothing is set in stone. IF not for the grace of God it could be anyone of us in the same situation,

 

[heron]

No secretive cult here, only a guy reading his Bible!

Not interested in what the mainstream "thinks" only it what the Bible says. Looking for the narrow gate.

Okay... when most of us look up topics, they tend to do a word search and consider it over. Divorce, fornication, marry... done.

But there was a Jewish custom of testing every bride for her virginity after marriage, and if a groom found out his bride (public declaration by ceremony) was not a virgin, he could dissolve the marriage.

Deut 22
"If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, `I took this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate.

The girl's father shall say to the elders, `I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city.

So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days. But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father's house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you.

In light of this, physical union would not be a sign of marriage, but of fornication.

See also

Ex 22:16 If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his wife. (Implying the formalities are necessary for marriage)

 

[JimB]

I think that there are only two reasons for a Christian's to divorce.

Okay, would you advise a woman in a physically abusive, even life-threatening marriage to remain in the marriage because in seeking a divorce she would not meet the “biblical” qualifications for a divorce (I presume, fornication and abandonment). I know of one woman who was so advised and who suffered irreparable brain damage because when she followed her church’s “biblical” counsel. The result was that not only is she damaged for life but following her church’s advice left her children exposed to the same violent husband. He is now in prison (for unrelated violence), their children are being raised by already over-burdened grandparents, the wife is all but brain-dead, and her pastor and church feels totally justified in giving her “sound” biblical advice.

What is wrong with this picture?

~Jim

And now let us pray for good luck.​

 

[heron]

What is wrong with this picture?

 

[Hisgirl]

Okay, would you advise a woman in a physically abusive, even life-threatening marriage to remain in the marriage because in seeking a divorce she would not meet the “biblical” qualifications for a divorce (I presume, fornication and abandonment). I know of one woman who was so advised and who suffered irreparable brain damage because when she followed her church’s “biblical” counsel. The result was that not only is she damaged for life but following her church’s advice left her children exposed to the same violent husband. He is now in prison (for unrelated violence), their children are being raised by already over-burdened grandparents, the wife is all but brain-dead, and her pastor and church feels totally justified in giving her “sound” biblical advice.

What is wrong with this picture?

~Jim

And now let us pray for good luck.​

Grrrrr....this kind of stuff just really bites my butt. I know people who have no issue saying this kind of thing. Divorce isn't the end of mankind. It isn't the destruction of Christiantity. GOD IS BIGGER THAN DIVORCE. That church should be financially supporting those children and picking up the hospital bills to boot. That advice sounds like something from the 18th century when it was legal to beat women.

 

[LJSGM]

Clearly Satan is attacking marriages! Using even christians to do it! What are we going to do about it I wonder? How are we going to support marriages? That's the question I think. He knows that seperation and divorce causes devistation and that God hates it because it destroys people, families and sacred unions. You can almost see those under attack as victims (trying not to justify the sin though). I think God restores people through grace, but how do we prevent it? Through prayer? couselling? support? Ignore their struggles? Anyone have any sugestions?

 

[heron]

Why would the institution of marriage be the focus of reverence, rather than the protection of individuals within the marriage?

 

[LJSGM]

If you're talking about physical abuse (and to my post), I wasn't refering to that, I don't think I would see anything wrong with a seperation.

1 Corinthians 7:9-11
10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

To me, it's strange that the Lord gives this option of seperation (although not good) to women and not men. The only thing that would cause this to be ok, I think, is abuse. But we are to be long suffering with each other. The bible does say that the two are one flesh, not individuals really.

 

[heron]

I ran across an interesting article due to another thread, that seems to add implications to the Corinthian verses:

"The worshipers of Diana... . To become a Goddess a woman must become independent of man, celibate, and properly complete Diana’s temple rituals....

The Gnostics also taught that the woman must become celibate and independent in order to serve the goddess Sophia and be truly saved. Paul is saying that women don’t have to stay single and live alone in order to be saved."

http://www.biblefacts.org/bible/temple.html

Yes, I was referring to your post, but not attacking it specifically; I've run across some scary statements on the marriage threads, where people have actually condemned abused women for wanting to leave their husbands -- while they were still in the relationship, not in retrospect.

 

[4Christ2]

Okay, would you advise a woman in a physically abusive, even life-threatening marriage to remain in the marriage because in seeking a divorce she would not meet the “biblical” qualifications for a divorce (I presume, fornication and abandonment). I know of one woman who was so advised and who suffered irreparable brain damage because when she followed her church’s “biblical” counsel. The result was that not only is she damaged for life but following her church’s advice left her children exposed to the same violent husband. He is now in prison (for unrelated violence), their children are being raised by already over-burdened grandparents, the wife is all but brain-dead, and her pastor and church feels totally justified in giving her “sound” biblical advice.

What is wrong with this picture?

~Jim

And now let us pray for good luck.​

Jim and others,

I totally understand what you are asking here. As a woman who stayed in an abusive marriage for 25 years - I can tell you this and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I speak truth...

1) An abuser breaks the law of the land - threatening to harm someone (even if verbally) is ASSAULT. This person should be turned over to the authorities and dealt with by law (prison, removal from the marital home, a record to warn others, etc.)

2) The abused spouse is not given "license" to DIVORCE his or her abuser by God...but is given an allowance to do so should he or she choose divorce. If the abused decides to divorce...he or she is called to remain unmarried and faithful or return to their spouse.

3) Returning to an unrepentant abuser is not required nor smart. And alas, the victim is "married" YET not married.

In instances of abuse; telling the victim that he or she should remain married to the abuser is very different from saying he or she must stay in the environment of abuse and not seek recourse through the "laws of the land".

I took out a 50B (restraining order); sought assistance through a local "victim of abuse program" and prayed fervently for my husband to change.

He did not change (refused counseling) but instead divorced me and has since remarried.

So, to answer your question; the victim of abuse should NOT stay in a situation where harm is possible. But neither should that victim not hold onto the faith that God is greater than anything in this world. HE can and has turned an abuser into a repentant servant.

Divorce is available - just not required. Reconciliation to a delivered abuser is possible with God. Remarriage of the abuser or for the abused is forbidden according to Jesus and Paul. Doesn't seem "fair", but IMO, no remarriage is gospel.

 

[LJSGM]

Jim and others,

I totally understand what you are asking here. As a woman who stayed in an abusive marriage for 25 years - I can tell you this and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I speak truth...

1) An abuser breaks the law of the land - threatening to harm someone (even if verbally) is ASSAULT. This person should be turned over to the authorities and dealt with by law (prison, removal from the marital home, a record to warn others, etc.)

2) The abused spouse is not given "license" to DIVORCE his or her abuser by God...but is given an allowance to do so should he or she choose divorce. If the abused decides to divorce...he or she is called to remain unmarried and faithful or return to their spouse.

3) Returning to an unrepentant abuser is not required nor smart. And alas, the victim is "married" YET not married.

In instances of abuse; telling the victim that he or she should remain married to the abuser is very different from saying he or she must stay in the environment of abuse and not seek recourse through the "laws of the land".

I took out a 50B (restraining order); sought assistance through a local "victim of abuse program" and prayed fervently for my husband to change.

He did not change (refused counseling) but instead divorced me and has since remarried.

So, to answer your question; the victim of abuse should NOT stay in a situation where harm is possible. But neither should that victim not hold onto the faith that God is greater than anything in this world. HE can and has turned an abuser into a repentant servant.

Divorce is available - just not required. Reconciliation to a delivered abuser is possible with God. Remarriage of the abuser or for the abused is forbidden according to Jesus and Paul. Doesn't seem "fair", but IMO, no remarriage is gospel.

Sounds pretty true to me

 

[Raph]

Divorce is available - just not required. Reconciliation to a delivered abuser is possible with God. Remarriage of the abuser or for the abused is forbidden according to Jesus and Paul. Doesn't seem "fair", but IMO, no remarriage is gospel.

Yes, divorce (separation) is NOT the sin. The Bible actually says so ... but the problem is with remarriage. The Bible also shows that bond of marriage is in the sexual act and not in the ceremony. Jesus actually says in the Bible if you can not accept the rules of marriage you should not get married and Apostle Paul confirms Jesus's teaching applies to Christians. This should not be news!


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[stone]

In the light of Jesus' words in Matt. 5:32, knowing that we are under the Blood of Christ, how are we to justify a divorce?

I am not putting this out to start a big argument, I just want some of you theologians out there to help me understand.

Also, I am not devorced, and I do not see a divorced person as lost. I don't think the church at large does either, because there are divorced pastors, and deacons.

Recently i read about a woman that went to her church leaders about her abusive husband, she wanted to divorce him. the church leaders advised her not to, that she would become a sinner and go to hell. She continued the relationship and was soon killed by her husband. She should have left him and divorced him, and she would still be alive today.

 

[jrlinz]

Separation is a very good idea in cases of physical abuse. Jesus clearly said the only valid reason for divorce is marital infidelity.

 

[thereselittleflower]

May I share a Catholic perspective?

In the Catholic Church we recognize that what God has joined together, no man can put assunder, and so when Catholics who have been divorced want to get remarried, the Church refuses to do so unless the Church is able to determine that the first marriage was not valid.

Not all marriages are joined by God. When it comes to Christians, we believe that only those who are baptized believers are able to be joined by God in a sacramental marriage. That does not mean that other marriages are invalid, for there are valid natural marriages also.

But for the Christian, to be joined by God means one has a Sacramental marriage, and this is a Sacrament that the believers bestow upon each other. Sacraments are vehicles of infusion with God's Divine Sanctifying Grace, and making marriage Sacramental means it is a means of being infused with God's Divine Sanctifying Grace. Since Divine Sanctifying Grace is only available to believers, this is why marriage is viewed by Catholics as a Sacrament.

If a marriage between believers is not sacramental, then it is not joined by God and can be annulled .. ie it was not a valid marriage to begin with. This leaves them free to enter into a valid sacramental marriage.

If it was sacramental, then it cannot be annulled, and any civil divorce is not recognized by the Church and the parties are not permitted to remarry in the Church, for if they do, then they are guilty of committing adultery.


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