A problem with my Christian friend.

[Zebra1552]

No problem.

 

[aiki]

You imply it's in the wiring, then say you don't know where it comes from.

No, I wrote that no one knows -because of the malleability of the brain - whether a particular brain state causes transgendered thinking or if transgendered thinking causes the associated brain state. It makes no difference to the fact that the brain is malleable, however, which causes which.

I believe transgendered thinking gives rise to the chemistry associated with it in the brain. The two things, thoughts and biochemistry, become a kind of feedback loop sustaining and strengthening each other. Changing the thinking breaks the loop and eventually alters the biochemistry, as has been shown in cases dealing with OCD.

Back the point or concede it.

I have. Accept it or not. It matters little to me.

I think God has an overarching role in the creation of every individual, but the sickness, disabilities, and death that permeate humanity were never part of God's original plan and He does not desire them to exist in humanity as a positive norm.
God is all powerful and could prevent such things if not in His design. So either he didn't prevent it, meaning it was intentional, or it's in God's design. Your argument here ignores this.

God does not prevent a great many things that are not in keeping with His will. He continues to allow us to sin, for example, which is directly contrary to His nature and desire. God would have us live in peace, joy and unity but He permits us to live in conflict, hatred and turmoil. And he creates us knowing we will choose to live in a manner opposite to His will. In the same way, although God is responsible for the creation of hermaphrodites, their condition is not, as I said, a positive norm which He desires, but the outworking of sin's corruptive influence which God allows.

Your reasoning still states that God did it anyway. For what reason would God create confusion like this? I thought you said God doesn't author confusion.

See above.

He isn't the cause of confusion, no, but He does allow it. Sin is the cause of the confusion of God's natural order which God permits to manifest itself in His creation as a result of the Fall. The continued corruption and destruction that sin causes is also a reminder to us, I think, of why sin should be despised and avoided at all costs.

Oh, so they're diseased and malformed, then. That's even better.

Hey, spin it as you like. I think it is perfectly appropriate to acknowledge that hermaphrodites are not representative of human physical norms. This may not be PC enough for you, but you aren't my standard for what is and isn't PC.

No. You're the one saying they should change their desires, or try to. You can support it. If that means you copy paste, then do so. But 'I already said why' in a thread of 18 long posts doesn't give me incentive to go looking for YOUR evidence.

Not my problem. Look or don't.

No, it doesn't. The request was to prove that he is identifying as something he isn't. Do you have proof that this person's gender is not female with male sex organs? I didn't think so. You can't. You're not God, and you are not a psychologist.

As I said, if the friend is not a hermaphrodite, that is, is not a female or male with sex organs of the opposite gender, but a perfectly physically intact male (or female) who feels he/she is a woman/man, then, yes, I have proved that he/she is identifying as something he/she clearly is not. (see my chicken analogy).

I don't care if you disagree, I care why you disagree. If you can do better, then expound. If not, concede the point.

I have limited interest in expounding at your say so. You aren't the OPer and we really shouldn't be debating on this forum. Your opinion as to whether or not I've done "better" is not really important to me. If you don't like what I'm writing, read something else.

Obviously you don't even know what psychology is if you're ripping psychiatry.

Obviously...

They're two different fields.

Yes, I know. They are two very related fields, however.

Back your claim, or concede the point.

I have done all the backing I wish to.

Psychology has more evidence supporting it than most 'hard' sciences.

LOL! What hard facts psychology can boast are typically borrowed from other scientific disciplines like medicine, biochemistry, neurology, etc. The farther psychology ventures away from these hard sciences (which it does), the more speculative and confused it becomes.

Condescension will not gain you any brownie points.

Brownie points? Is that why you think I'm writing?

If your argument is correct, then there are no hermaphrodites. Clearly there are, so your argument is incorrect. You have not refuted my statements.

Riiight...

So what if it's modern and liberal. This doesn't make the claim incorrect.

Did I say that it did? No.

In context, they clearly do discuss prostitution. They cannot discuss homosexuality because first off, it's a banned topic and you wouldn't be discussing that unless you want to get in trouble.

What? Who is "they"? If you mean the verses in Leviticus, the rules of this forum have absolutely nothing to do with what they "discuss."

Second, homosexuality refers to men with men and women with women- same sex attractions. The verse discusses only men with men.

So? Obviously, what is forbidden for men is forbidden for women, too. This is implicitly understood in many instances in Scripture. Moreover, the verse makes no remark at all about the socio-religious context within which homosexual prostitution may have occurred in pagan cultures. It flatly condemns sexual intercourse between men without qualification.

Lastly, it is in a section of Leviticus that clearly discusses foreign practices. Your 'context' debunks your claim.

What foreign cultures were doing affects not at all the unequivocal command of God prohibiting sexual relations between men in Leviticus 18:22.

I'm afraid what debunking has occurred is on the side of your claims, not mine.

I'm sorry, but what part of that isn't talking about married people? The entire segment is prefaced with a discussion of a wife, not women as a whole. Again you ripped the verse out of context.

Hardly. As I said before, the qualities of the virtuous wife laid out in Proverbs 31 are not intended to be in force only when a woman is married. A lazy, shiftless single woman will be a lazy, shiftless wife. Strength, wisdom and industry are not the sole domain of the married woman but should be cultivated in young women before they are married. Any unmarried young woman reading this passage would understand this clearly.

You see what you want to see I guess...
Cut the personal attacks, they have no place in a discussion. Address the argument, or concede the point.

Personal attack? How so?

I have addressed the "argument" as much as feel I need to. And I do so without any concession to your objections.

Another contradiction. And another claim you never supported.

Yes, yes. I knew you were going to write this...

Selah.

 

[Zebra1552]

Obviously you aren't interested in helping the person deal with their problem if you can't even support your own arguments, so this little sidetrack is quite relevant to the OP. If your opinion has little to no merit, the OP should take it with a grain of salt. I've shown that your verses don't address the situation and that your argument does not follow from its premise. You have several times conceded the points I made and refused to support your position.

Furthermore, your icon says baptist. I know for a fact that this isn't Baptist belief. I know because I go to a Baptist church. Your take, then, is yours and yours alone and ignores the request of the OP.

 

[aiki]

Obviously you aren't interested in helping the person deal with their problem if you can't even support your own arguments, so this little sidetrack is quite relevant to the OP.

Oh, I'm interested in helping the OP - which doesn't involve answering to you about what I write. The fact of the matter is that this "sidetrack" is your doing, not mine. In light of the fact that you aren't the OPer, I am quite content to abandon it. And, I have supported my arguments perfectly well (your "challenges" notwithstanding).

If your opinion has little to no merit, the OP should take it with a grain of salt.

That goes for you as well. But I don't agree that my views have little merit; I offered them precisely because I think they do have merit.

I've shown that your verses don't address the situation and that your argument does not follow from its premise.

No, all you've done is revealed your ignorance and a propensity for petulant argument.

You have several times conceded the points I made and refused to support your position.

No, actually, I haven't. I have refused to give an exhaustive accounting of my views to you simply because you have demanded them.

Furthermore, your icon says baptist. I know for a fact that this isn't Baptist belief. I know because I go to a Baptist church. Your take, then, is yours and yours alone and ignores the request of the OP.

LOL! Not hardly! LOL! I have been in the Baptist denomination for over forty years, my father was a Baptist pastor, as was my grandfather. My views are quite Baptistic - and biblical.

Take 'er easy!

Selah.

 

[Zebra1552]

Bickering with my claims doesn't negate them. If you really think your views are actually baptist, then cite baptist sources. 'I'm a baptist pastor's son' isn't valid on teh internets.

 

[OwlSight]

..e_o.. I know deep down that I should definitely not get involved with this, buuuut..

As a non-religious FtM who has been going to various therapists, psychiatrists and psychologists for several years and will be starting hormone therapy soon, I honestly believe that those here who are attempting to state that I'm "wrong" or "unnatural" somehow need to.. well.. put down their Bibles and get to know me, for lack of a better phrase.

I have been diagnosed repeatedly with GID, which is a legitimate disorder, and hearing that wanting to free myself from the prison that is my own body would be "wrong" is disgusting to me. If I did not decide to pursue treatment for my GID, I would have killed myself by now. I have been living with severe depression for years, but have been medicated for it, now, and simply getting treatment for the GID was enough to lift my spirits enough to not be suicidal, simply because I knew that this never-ending nightmare would not last forever.

A relevant quote my husband (or wife, I suppose you could say, for he is genderfluid) told me the other day goes something like this: "If God didn't want there to be gays, why would he keep making them?"

There is absolutely nothing wrong or unnatural about being transgendered, transsexual or homosexual. It has its roots in physical causes and saying that an FtM opting to remove his breasts is wrong is akin to stating that removing a benign, large and unsightly tumour is also wrong. There are countless birth defects that are corrected via modern age medical practices, and GID is simply another example. Whether the brain chemicals being imbalanced or being born into a body of the wrong sex is up for debate, but my point that fixing this defect is not wrong still stands.

First of all, your friend has obviously put a lot of trust into you by sharing this information with you. I know from personal experience that coming out is incredibly difficult, especially if the person you're attempting to come out to is religious. I say that because the only arguments I have heard against GID and transsexuality stem from religious backgrounds, and I know for me that coming out to my grandmother, whose father was a priest, was horribly difficult. I did not know how she would react at all, but I was lucky that she supported me, hugged me and kissed me and told me that she would pray for me.

If I was in your friend's shoes, I would be extremely disheartened and depressed if my friend told me that I was wrong and unnatural and to look to God to heal me or somesuch. Personally, that would cause me to withdraw from that friend and I would never want to speak to them again, or at least not for a very, very long time. Instead of changing my beliefs, I would attempt to change theirs. It's not my fault if someone does not want to be tolerant of me, because I know who I am. If my friend did not want to support me, then perhaps I should not have told them in the first place, for, in my eyes, they would have betrayed the trust that I placed in them.

However, I'm not religious. I don't know how your friend feels, but I do know that in my mind, if he or she decides to squash his or her feelings because of religious beliefs, it would be a tragedy. Again, this is simply my opinion.

Good luck with your friend! Those are my two cents on the matter.

 

[Fatally.Yours]

..e_o.. I know deep down that I should definitely not get involved with this, buuuut..

As a non-religious FtM who has been going to various therapists, psychiatrists and psychologists for several years and will be starting hormone therapy soon, I honestly believe that those here who are attempting to state that I'm "wrong" or "unnatural" somehow need to.. well.. put down their Bibles and get to know me, for lack of a better phrase.

I have been diagnosed repeatedly with GID, which is a legitimate disorder, and hearing that wanting to free myself from the prison that is my own body would be "wrong" is disgusting to me. If I did not decide to pursue treatment for my GID, I would have killed myself by now. I have been living with severe depression for years, but have been medicated for it, now, and simply getting treatment for the GID was enough to lift my spirits enough to not be suicidal, simply because I knew that this never-ending nightmare would not last forever.

A relevant quote my husband (or wife, I suppose you could say, for he is genderfluid) told me the other day goes something like this: "If God didn't want there to be gays, why would he keep making them?"

There is absolutely nothing wrong or unnatural about being transgendered, transsexual or homosexual. It has its roots in physical causes and saying that an FtM opting to remove his breasts is wrong is akin to stating that removing a benign, large and unsightly tumour is also wrong. There are countless birth defects that are corrected via modern age medical practices, and GID is simply another example. Whether the brain chemicals being imbalanced or being born into a body of the wrong sex is up for debate, but my point that fixing this defect is not wrong still stands.

First of all, your friend has obviously put a lot of trust into you by sharing this information with you. I know from personal experience that coming out is incredibly difficult, especially if the person you're attempting to come out to is religious. I say that because the only arguments I have heard against GID and transsexuality stem from religious backgrounds, and I know for me that coming out to my grandmother, whose father was a priest, was horribly difficult. I did not know how she would react at all, but I was lucky that she supported me, hugged me and kissed me and told me that she would pray for me.

If I was in your friend's shoes, I would be extremely disheartened and depressed if my friend told me that I was wrong and unnatural and to look to God to heal me or somesuch. Personally, that would cause me to withdraw from that friend and I would never want to speak to them again, or at least not for a very, very long time. Instead of changing my beliefs, I would attempt to change theirs. It's not my fault if someone does not want to be tolerant of me, because I know who I am. If my friend did not want to support me, then perhaps I should not have told them in the first place, for, in my eyes, they would have betrayed the trust that I placed in them.

However, I'm not religious. I don't know how your friend feels, but I do know that in my mind, if he or she decides to squash his or her feelings because of religious beliefs, it would be a tragedy. Again, this is simply my opinion.

Good luck with your friend! Those are my two cents on the matter.

I'm not religious, I'm cool with it.
He's more concerned about his family/church. We also go to Catholic school which would be a problem if we weren't leaving forever next week.

 

[OwlSight]

I'm not religious, I'm cool with it.
He's more concerned about his family/church. We also go to Catholic school which would be a problem if we weren't leaving forever next week.

D:.. That stinks. I wish him the best of luck! Well, as with what happened with my grandma, sometimes people can surprised you in a good way! I hope the same kind of thing happens with him!

 

[If Not For Grace]

I have been diagnosed repeatedly with GID, which is a legitimate disorder

Being a Kleptomaniac does not make stealing acceptable.
The answer to being a diabetic is not to consume more sugar (just b/c that is what one desires or has cravings for) any more than drinking would be appropriate for an alocholic.

 

[OwlSight]

Being a Kleptomaniac does not make stealing acceptable.

Um.. Wow. Totally not even in the same ballpark. For starters, stealing is against the law. Where in the law does it say that seeking treatment for a mental disorder is against the law?

The answer to being a diabetic is not to consume more sugar (just b/c that is what one desires or has cravings for)

Nearly everyone in my family has diabetes. If they don't eat sugar or have some form of glucose when their blood sugar is low, they will die.

any more than drinking would be appropriate for an alocholic.

How exactly is wanting to get treatment for a mental disorder anything like drinking is for an alcoholic?

 

[Jazer]

but there are people with chromosomes of XXY and other combinations of chromosomes.

They say one in 500 is XXY & one in 1000 is YYX. In places like Thailand and the Philippines they tend to stand out more, but perhaps people are more tolerant there.

It doesn't make sense to me to assert that God would make people who don't fit into what we would consider strictly male or female biologically

We live in a fallen world. He does allow things to happen and He will not allow something to happen unless He can do a work to cause good to come out of it.

Romans 8:28 (King James Version)

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,
to them who are the called according to his purpose.

 

[Harry3142]

Attila the Hun was a man; so was Mozart. Napoleon Bonaparte was a man; so was C. S. Lewis. There is no such thing as one blueprint by which all men can be measured. Some are intellectual; some ar athletic. Some are artistic; some are barbaric. There are as many different ways of being a man as there are men.

As for physical sexuality, your friend was born male, so that is his sexuality. He can't change that. Even those who have gotten the radical surgery have come out of it mutilated men, not artificial women. What your friend needs to decide is what kind of man he will be. Where will he focus his attention? That he does have control over.

 

[jennimatts]

My best friend is a Christian, however recently he came out to me as being transgender. This is causing him some serious issues as he knows he can never be fully out because his family and church won't accept him (he's Catholic in case any of you were wondering about denomination). He's quite upset and frustrated, and I don't really understand because I'm not a Christian and personally have no issues with the LGBT community, so I need some advice about what I can do to help from people who understand these issues a little better than I do.

In General the Christian community is very intolerant of transsexualism. Gender dysphoria is a real condition where an individuals innate emotional, spiritual, and mental sense of their gender does not match their anatomical sex. The discrepancy of the mental and physical gender can only be brought into conformity by changing the body through medical/surgical intervention.

People will try to tell your friend “If you pray enough, God will deliver you from this”. You can’t pray away gender dysphoria any more than other birth defects or abnormalities.

Your friend needs to consult a therapist familiar with gender issues to be sure this doesn't lead to other disabling conditions or suicide.

Having a sex change is not an unpardonable sin. It is possible to be a transwoman and a Christian, but one must have a very firm commitment to their faith prior to transition. I say this from personal experience, and from a few of my transfriends. There is no scripture that would prohibit a Christian from being transsexual when understood in it’s proper context.

However, transition is a long expensive process. Your friend would certainly have to break ties with the Catholic church when transition begins, and most likely sever most ties with family. Without support from family, she will have to work to save for this treatment. She will also have to undergo hormone replacement, and live full time for more than a year as a woman.

You mentioned your friend is straight, but after transition, if she seeks a relationship with another woman, it would be a lesbian relationship, so she couldn't just live under the radar and be welcome in most churches.

Your friend has a very difficult road to travel. I've been down that road, and it isn't easy. It can be very lonely and depressing to be rejected by ones family and church.

One of the greatest things you can do is remain best friends. I will pray for you and your friend. (I know you said you're not a Christian, but your friendship could be difficult through this process, so I think you could use prayer too.)

 

[KellyJ]

If your friend thought he was something else that he was obviously not - say a chicken - what would you think? Would you calmly accept his belief that he was a chicken as calmly as you seem to be accepting his belief that he is a woman? I doubt it. You'd see that it was quite obvious that he wasn't a chicken and wonder at his mental health. Your friend, as a man, is obviously not a woman, either. Shouldn't you wonder, then, about the health of his mind in this instance, too?

Aiki, You seem to know a lot about chickens. May I ask what qualifications you have in the medical field to associate these two?

If your friend is a man, then that is what God made him. His desire to be a woman defies what God obviously intends, which is that he be a man.

Under what basis do you know this?



I can tell you as a Christian that there is nothing in the Bible to support a man behaving as a woman. And there is nothing condemning a person for it either. In fact, woman and men are commanded in Scripture to dress in a manner that clearly distinguishes the one gender from the other. Really? If your friend is determined to defy how God has made him, then I can see why he would be upset; for he puts himself at serious odds with his Creator.

I don't think that is the reason Aiki. As one talking from experience, it has nothing to do with that. Rather, it has to do with the way people misinterpret the Bible and condemn such individuals.




Selah.

Fatally. yours, please let your friend know she is not alone. There are many of us who have transitioned and made it in this world serving our Creator. It will not be easy, but it will draw her much closer to God than she has ever experienced before.

She will be in my prayers.

Kelly

 

[Fatally.Yours]

In General the Christian community is very intolerant of transsexualism. Gender dysphoria is a real condition where an individuals innate emotional, spiritual, and mental sense of their gender does not match their anatomical sex. The discrepancy of the mental and physical gender can only be brought into conformity by changing the body through medical/surgical intervention.

People will try to tell your friend “If you pray enough, God will deliver you from this”. You can’t pray away gender dysphoria any more than other birth defects or abnormalities.

Your friend needs to consult a therapist familiar with gender issues to be sure this doesn't lead to other disabling conditions or suicide.

Having a sex change is not an unpardonable sin. It is possible to be a transwoman and a Christian, but one must have a very firm commitment to their faith prior to transition. I say this from personal experience, and from a few of my transfriends. There is no scripture that would prohibit a Christian from being transsexual when understood in it’s proper context.

However, transition is a long expensive process. Your friend would certainly have to break ties with the Catholic church when transition begins, and most likely sever most ties with family. Without support from family, she will have to work to save for this treatment. She will also have to undergo hormone replacement, and live full time for more than a year as a woman.

You mentioned your friend is straight, but after transition, if she seeks a relationship with another woman, it would be a lesbian relationship, so she couldn't just live under the radar and be welcome in most churches.

Your friend has a very difficult road to travel. I've been down that road, and it isn't easy. It can be very lonely and depressing to be rejected by ones family and church.

One of the greatest things you can do is remain best friends. I will pray for you and your friend. (I know you said you're not a Christian, but your friendship could be difficult through this process, so I think you could use prayer too.)

Thanks for your help unfortunately in September we're going to colleges about 100 miles away from each other, but we're going to stay in touch.