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A problem with my Christian friend.

Fatally.Yours

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My best friend is a Christian, however recently he came out to me as being transgender. This is causing him some serious issues as he knows he can never be fully out because his family and church won't accept him (he's Catholic in case any of you were wondering about denomination). He's quite upset and frustrated, and I don't really understand because I'm not a Christian and personally have no issues with the LGBT community, so I need some advice about what I can do to help from people who understand these issues a little better than I do.
 
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wsgqapu_ap

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There's a wide range of beliefs on transgender issues among Christians (some aren't even aware of transgender people), so answers here may vary widely and might not help you understand his situation exactly, especially if the person is non-Catholic. Actually, there's quite a bit of diversity of views among Catholics, even though the official Catholic teaching is pretty solid on it.

Though what's left of my faith is Protestant-ish, I know of some transgender Catholics who have reconciled their faith with their gender identity. Personally, I would consider myself as having a progressive view when it comes to transgender issues.

I hope the best turns out for your friend. I'm going to send you a PM soon.

-JP
 
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drich0150

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I'm not sure what your asking, or what you want. Specifically how can we help?
 
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aiki

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If your friend thought he was something else that he was obviously not - say a chicken - what would you think? Would you calmly accept his belief that he was a chicken as calmly as you seem to be accepting his belief that he is a woman? I doubt it. You'd see that it was quite obvious that he wasn't a chicken and wonder at his mental health. Your friend, as a man, is obviously not a woman, either. Shouldn't you wonder, then, about the health of his mind in this instance, too?

If your friend is a man, then that is what God made him. His desire to be a woman defies what God obviously intends, which is that he be a man.


I can tell you as a Christian that there is nothing in the Bible to support a man behaving as a woman. In fact, woman and men are commanded in Scripture to dress in a manner that clearly distinguishes the one gender from the other. If your friend is determined to defy how God has made him, then I can see why he would be upset; for he puts himself at serious odds with his Creator.

Selah.
 
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wsgqapu_ap

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Hi,

From my understanding, aiki's perspective is going to be a bit different than what your friend's parents and faith community might hold, since they're Catholic and aiki is a conservative Baptist.

There are some similarities in the official Catholic doctrine and what many Baptists would hold towards transgender though, particularly coming from a belief in divinely ordained gender roles for the sexes. Catholics would most likely defend their position by referring to what's known as 'natural law' and would point to Church tradition, while a more conservative Baptist approach would point to the Bible verses which can be interpreted to ordain particular roles for men and for women.

Personally, I think the situation is more complex than it might at first appear. For instance, several studies have shown that transgender people show different brain chemistry in an area called the 'bed nucleus' in their 'stria terminalis'. That area in the brains of FTM (female to male) transgender people resemble those of males, and that are in the brains of MTF (male to female) transgender people resemble those of women. For that reason and others, I think we need to be very careful before saying to someone whose core sense of identity doesn't match up with their body that they are a different gender than their sense of identity is. It may very well be that this sense of mismatch with one's body is due to physical differences in the brain that affect one's mental sense of self.

I think a similarly complex situation exists for intersexual people (also referred to as hemaphrodites) - those who are born with physical characteristics of both genders. Males have chromosomes XY, and women have XX (generally - a very small percentage have XY, and can have complications), but there are people with chromosomes of XXY and other combinations of chromosomes.

It doesn't make sense to me to assert that God would make people who don't fit into what we would consider strictly male or female biologically and then assert that all people must be one way or the other and that anyone in between, including those that were born that way, are somehow sinning. I feel the same about those crossing from one gender to the other, due to differences in brain chemistry that affect one's core sense of self. There are clearly people in between, not by any choice or mental problems, but due to clear physical differences and anomalies.

I think in complicated situations such as these, it's best to act with compassion and try to understand where our transgender friends are coming from. I can't imagine what it'd feel like if I were in a woman's body. My personal sense of self is male, and I can't imagine what that experience would be like. I think the best you can do is just be there for your friend, listen to what your friend has to say, and offer support. I sincerely hope all turns out for the best for your friend.
 
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Zebra1552

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Transgendered I have no experience with. It is possible to 'be gay', or have same-sex attractions and be a Christian. You're looking at one (figuratively). It's interesting to reconcile the two. For me, I have no problem having desires... but I won't act on them because it would be wrong to do so. I'm not sure how this would apply to transgendered folk.
 
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Zebra1552

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This does not address his concern. Transgendered isn't about identifying as something you're not. It has a lot to do with hormones.
If your friend is a man, then that is what God made him. His desire to be a woman defies what God obviously intends, which is that he be a man.
How do you know that?



I've never understood this. Where do you get this information?
 
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chilehed

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If that happens he needs to call the people involved to actually conform to Catholic teaching:
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.​
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.shtml

The Catholic Church most certainly does not reject those with homosexual tendencies. It certainly calls them to resist those tendencies, because to act on them is to violate human nature and is thus harmful.
 
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wsgqapu_ap

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Hi chilehed,

I think you might be confusing being transgender for homosexuality. Being transgender is when someone's sense of self does not match with gender they were born with biologically. For instance, if someone was born with male body parts but felt they were female - that their core sense of identity was female, they would be transgender. It's akin to how someone might feel if they woke up the next day with a body of the opposite sex. It has to do with what's known as gender identity, which is independent of sexual orientation.

-JP
 
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chilehed

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I'm not sure that really changes my answer. It's a disordered state of sexual expression for which the proper response is described in that section of the catechism.
 
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Matariki

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For starters I commend you for asking for advice here on the forums, it tells me how much you care about your friend.

I understand that this is a very sensitive subject which many are ignorant towards. I think its unfair that there is so much prejudice and alienation in the church towards individuals that are sexually troubled.
These are the individuals we should be embracing with open arms and supporting by providing a solid foundation for them to stand on so they can address their issues in a biblical manner.

Transgender and homosexuality, although similar, are not the same. One is with identity the other is with attraction.
How do I know? Well, I happen to be Transgender myself.

One thing I need to make clear is that God doesn't make mistakes, we do. God is a planner and righteous in everything he does. I'm not saying that its an individuals fault for being Transgender, but it is our responsibility how we address it and whether or not we engage in it.

For years I have struggled with my own sexual identity to the point I was diagnosed with clinical depression. Though I struggle, I understand that God has given me masculine qualities for a reason which can be used to serve and glorify him, but he has also presented me with a test and challenge which requires me to rely on him. I'm not saying that God will 'cure' an individual with GID (gender identity disorder), instead God can help us learn to accept who we are and seek out his purposes for us. That is where (good and proper) biblical counseling comes into play.

As for your friends feminine qualities and personality, there is nothing sinful about a man engaging in feminine actives (eg: shopping, wearing makeup, working with children etc.) and vice versa, I engage in my masculine side by fighting in the ring, lifting weights, doing outdoor activities and riding my motorcycle etc. Its a healthy release, as long it is done with the right attitude. Though the bible does address the differences and roles between males and females, isn't doesn't define what feminine or masculine activities are or things what men and women can't partake in (I am not referring to biblical leadership roles btw, that is a different matter).

A feminine male can learn to take on the qualities of a biblical man, just as a masculine female can learn to take on the qualities of a biblical woman. That doesn't mean being a chauvinist or a door mat, but following in the example of Christ.

All men and women share feminine and masculine qualities. Man and woman complement each other, but that doesn't mean that all men and women are going to be molded and shaped in the same way. God creates different people for different purposes. What matters more than anything is for us to trust God's plans for us. Self altercation is not the solution, Jesus is (only Jesus can truly alter us by changing our hearts). God has the answers, all we need to do is ask.
 
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Sketcher

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Umm...he's straight, he just wants to be a woman. :S
So he likes women, and wants to be a woman himself?

My take is he should have some counseling to help him accept who he really is, rather than have himself be cut up. You can't go back on that kind of an operation.
 
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wsgqapu_ap

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So he likes women, and wants to be a woman himself?

My take is he should have some counseling to help him accept who he really is, rather than have himself be cut up. You can't go back on that kind of an operation.

It's required that anyone who wants to undergo gender reassignment surgery must undergo extensive counseling to determine whether they feel they want to go ahead with the surgery, so it's not something hastily done. In the original poster's friend's case, it sounds like if they were to consider gender reassignment surgery, it'd be a long way off, given family challenges and personal challenges they currently face.

I think in situations like this regarding transgender folk, we need to be really careful to make conclusions about who someone really is when it contrasts how they feel in their innermost sense of self. Often things people write off as psychological have significant physical basis, and several studies have shown that transgender people have sections of their brain that resemble the gender they identify with, not the sex the rest of their body was born as.
 
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aiki

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The brain is notoriously malleable. Research has shown that the brain can be significantly "re-wired" by what one tells oneself and how one chooses to behave. For this reason it is impossible to determine if things like homosexuality and transgender obsession are caused by the conditions of the brain you mention above or if they produce the differences in the brain that you describe. Brain chemistry and neurology at this point can tell us nothing definitive about the source or cause of homosexuality or transgender fixation.

Genetically established hermaphrodites are clearly not like those who can point to no certain physical cause for their transgender fixation. You seem to be implying in the above remarks that the extreme (genetically speaking) should define the norm, which is a dangerous and unreasonable method to follow.

Again, you are trying to make the exception define the rule. As a percentage of the total human population, the number of true hermaphrodites is very, very small. In those rare cases where there is no clear physical indication of a person's gender, the individual ought to be able to choose whatever gender they wish to be. I can see no biblical prohibition to doing so. However, when someone is clearly physically female or male but wishes they were of the opposite sex, they are not acting in accord with their natural, God-given state and so are guilty of a perversion of that state.

In the beginning God created male and female. With the advent of sin into the world came disease, physical malformation, and death. Among other things, the distinct genders God had originally made have been allowed over time to be corrupted by the curse of sin. It has been suggested that compared to the average human alive today, Adam and Eve would have appeared to be nearly super-human, not having suffered under the corruption of sin's curse for millenia. I'm not dogmatic about this view, but it makes a certain sense in light of what Scripture tells us about God's initial creation and the effect of sin upon it. It also suggests that instances of true hermaphrodism are reflective of the curse of sin upon the world rather than some divine desire to see a blurring of the genders.

The wonderful thing about the malleability of the mind is that it can be reshaped biochemically in any number of ways so that people who are fixated in a transgender way can be freed of that fixation by altering their brain chemistry - not just with drugs but with an alternate way of viewing themselves and their fixation.

Obviously, I disagree. I think the heart of the matter is that his friend, if he is not a legitimate hermaphrodite, is plainly identifying as something he is not. A man is not a woman just as a man is not a chicken, or a dog, or a cow. Hormones, by the way, have a lot to do with many mental illnesses, which, IMO, suggests something about the nature of transgendered fixation, which also has abnormal hormonal characteristics.

If your friend is a man, then that is what God made him. His desire to be a woman defies what God obviously intends, which is that he be a man.
How do you know that?
It is what the Bible indicates quite clearly. In many places in Scripture clear distinctions are made between the sexes. Here are some references:

Ge. 1:27; 5:2; Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Matt. 19:4; Prov. 31:10-31; 1 Cor. 11:3; Tit. 2:5; 1 Co. 6:9 and so on.

"God is not the author of confusion," the Bible states (1 Cor. 14:33), thus we understand that whatever produces confusion (like transgender fixation) is not of God.

Selah.
 
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Zebra1552

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Which means it cannot simply BE rewired as you claimed. You contradicted yourself.

Chapter and verse, please. And who's to say God didn't make them transgendered?

Gender is defined by the person, not their genes. Sex is determined by the genes. You have no proof that the 'confusion' is due to sin or if it's actually normal.

You are just speculating, again, and have no proof given thus far.

Why should they?


Obviously, I disagree. I think the heart of the matter is that his friend, if he is not a legitimate hermaphrodite, is plainly identifying as something he is not.
Prove it.
A man is not a woman just a man is not a chicken, or a dog, or a cow.
That has nothing to do with being transgendered.
Hormones, by the way, have a lot to do with many mental illnesses, which, IMO, suggests something about the nature of transgendered fixation, which also has abnormal hormonal characteristics.
Are you a psychologist? Transgendered is not considered a disease or disorder by the APA, or by most professional psychologists. You know, the people that are experts on what's normal and what's not?
It is what the Bible indicates quite clearly. In many places in Scripture clear distinctions are made between the sexes. Here are some references:
I doubt that.

Ge. 1:27; 5:2; Matt. 19:4
This states no exclusivity on the two sexes. The implication of taking either verse as you mean it is that transgendered and hermaphroditic people are not created by God, in contradiction with John 1:3.

Lev. 18:22
Off topic.

Off topic. That and the previous verse discuss prostitution. Not transgender issues.

; Prov. 31:10-31
Off topic. This does not give a distinction between sexes, it is a poetic admiration of a wife. Not all women are wives.
; 1 Cor. 11:3;
Off topic. Not all people are married.

Tit. 2:5;
Off topic. Not all people are married.
1 Co. 6:9
Off topic.
and so on.
Not a single verse you gave shows that there is a distinction between men and women. It addresses marriage or temple prostitution.

"God is not the author of confusion," the Bible states (1 Cor. 14:33), thus we understand that whatever produces confusion (like transgender fixation) is not of God.

Selah.
1Co 14:31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged.
1Co 14:32 And the spirits of prophets are subject to the prophets,
1Co 14:33 for God is a God not of disorder but of peace. (As in all the churches of the saints,
1Co 14:34 women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says.
1Co 14:35 If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
1Co 14:36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only ones it has reached?)

Nice job ripping that out of context. It has nothing to do with God being 100% clear on everything. It has to do with prophecy.
 
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aiki

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Which means it cannot simply BE rewired as you claimed. You contradicted yourself.
No, I don't think so. Please show me how you think I contradicted myself.

Chapter and verse, please. And who's to say God didn't make them transgendered?
Who is to say He did? Chapter and verse, please.

I think God has an overarching role in the creation of every individual, but the sickness, disabilities, and death that permeate humanity were never part of God's original plan and He does not desire them to exist in humanity as a positive norm. These things have come as the result of sin's curse (Gen. 3:16-19; Ro. 5:12) which God allows to corrupt humanity. God's original plan was "male and female created He them," not "male and female and anything in between." Transgendered fixation is clearly outside of God's established genders.

I was referring to hermaphrodites who have no clear physical gender and who do have a genetic origin for their condition.

Yes, this is speculative and I say so in the above quotation. But there is some indirect basis in Scripture for giving some weight to it. If you don't think so, well, its no skin off my nose.

I've already given an answer to this in other parts of my posts. Feel free to read those other parts!

Obviously, I disagree. I think the heart of the matter is that his friend, if he is not a legitimate hermaphrodite, is plainly identifying as something he is not.
Prove it.
Does this fellow have breasts, and a vagina typical of women? Does he have a uterus and ovaries? If not, well, my case is made. Merely feeling and thinking that you are a woman doesn't make you one any more than thinking and feeling you are chicken makes you a chicken. Its sad that I have to clarify this for you...

A man is not a woman just a man is not a chicken, or a dog, or a cow.
That has nothing to do with being transgendered.
I disagree.

I have a good friend who has his Phd. in clinical psychology and he would laugh out loud at your remarks here! He often mocks how little the soft science of psychology really knows about the human mind and its complexities. And as far as he is concerned, no one is normal.

As you may have guessed, I have little use or respect for psychology as a field of science. I have too many people around me who are depressed, and OCD, and anxious and who, though they have sought "professional psychiatric aid," remain unimproved - and sometimes much worse.

Ge. 1:27; 5:2; Matt. 19:4
This states no exclusivity on the two sexes. The implication of taking either verse as you mean it is that transgendered and hermaphroditic people are not created by God, in contradiction with John 1:3.
No, as I have explained already, God creates but He allows the curse of sin to corrupt His creation.

The verses exclude by implication any other sex - much like the sign on the door of the women's washroom says "Women" and in so doing implicitly excludes all men. Do you really need such things explained to you?

Lev. 18:22
Off topic.
I disagree.

20:13
Off topic. That and the previous verse discuss prostitution. Not transgender issues.
I disagree. It is a modern, liberal, homosexually-soft interpretation that most often suggests these verses refer to prostitution. In context, clearly they do not. And while I don't think transgendered fixation and homosexuality are identical, I do think they have things in common.

Prov. 31:10-31

Off topic. This does not give a distinction between sexes, it is a poetic admiration of a wife. Not all women are wives.
I disagree. I think it quite on topic.

What distinction this passage offers between the sexes is implicit - like the sign on the door to the woman's washroom. The qualities of the woman in the passage are not confined necessarily to married women.

Not a single verse you gave shows that there is a distinction between men and women. It addresses marriage or temple prostitution.
You see what you want to see I guess...

Nice job ripping that out of context. It has nothing to do with God being 100% clear on everything. It has to do with prophecy.
I never said it had to with God being 100% clear on everything. And it doesn't have to do with prophecy. It has to do with women causing disturbances in the meetings of the local church body, as verse 34 reveals. Paul declares that peace should mark the meeting of the body of believers since they are the children of the Author of Peace. God was not the author of the disorderly behaviour of the women that was plaguing the meetings of the Corinthian church.

I think the disorderly behaviour or confusion that Paul speaks of in 1Corinthians 14:33 may be applied to other kinds of disturbances to the divine order of things. It seems obvious to me that transgendered fixation is a sort of confusion of God's intended order of the genders. As such it isn't from God.

Selah.
 
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Zebra1552

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No, I don't think so. Please show me how you think I contradicted myself.
The brain is notoriously malleable. Research has shown that the brain can be significantly "re-wired" by what one tells oneself and how one chooses to behave.
You imply it's in the wiring, then say you don't know where it comes from.
Brain chemistry and neurology at this point can tell us nothing definitive about the source or cause of homosexuality or transgender fixation.

Nevermind that you say it is a fixation, implying obsession, which is symptomatic of OCD- basically implying that GLBT is a disorder of some kind.

Who is to say He did? Chapter and verse, please.
No. You made the affirmative claim-
However, when someone is clearly physically female or male but wishes they were of the opposite sex, they are not acting in accord with their natural, God-given state and so are guilty of a perversion of that state.
Back the point or concede it.

I think God has an overarching role in the creation of every individual, but the sickness, disabilities, and death that permeate humanity were never part of God's original plan and He does not desire them to exist in humanity as a positive norm.
God is all powerful and could prevent such things if not in His design. So either he didn't prevent it, meaning it was intentional, or it's in God's design. Your argument here ignores this.

Your reasoning still states that God did it anyway. For what reason would God create confusion like this? I thought you said God doesn't author confusion.

I was referring to hermaphrodites who have no clear physical gender and who do have a genetic origin for their condition.
Oh, so they're diseased and malformed, then. That's even better.

Yes, this is speculative and I say so in the above quotation. But there is some indirect basis in Scripture for giving some weight to it. If you don't think so, well, its no skin off my nose.
Obviously you didn't read what I wrote. I'll emphasize.
You are just speculating, again, and have no proof given thus far.

I've already given an answer to this in other parts of my posts. Feel free to read those other parts!
No. You're the one saying they should change their desires, or try to. You can support it. If that means you copy paste, then do so. But 'I already said why' in a thread of 18 long posts doesn't give me incentive to go looking for YOUR evidence.
Does this fellow have breasts, and a vagina typical of women? Does he have a uterus and ovaries? If not, well, my case is made.
No, it doesn't. The request was to prove that he is identifying as something he isn't. Do you have proof that this person's gender is not female with male sex organs? I didn't think so. You can't. You're not God, and you are not a psychologist.

Merely feeling and thinking that you are a woman doesn't make you one any more than thinking and feeling you are chicken makes you a chicken. Its sad that I have to clarify this for you...
It's sad that you compare humans identifying with humans to humans identifying as animals. Apples to oranges.
I disagree.
I don't care if you disagree, I care why you disagree. If you can do better, then expound. If not, concede the point.
Psychology has more evidence supporting it than most 'hard' sciences. If your friend is in clinical psychology, then he knows what norms are and thus the proper definition of the word normal. And btw, I don't care what friends you have or what you think of psychology. If you're going to use psychological terms to say that transgendered is disordered, you must show evidence rather than making unsupported claims that confuse people.

Obviously you don't even know what psychology is if you're ripping psychiatry. They're two different fields. Back your claim, or concede the point.


Condescension will not gain you any brownie points. If your argument is correct, then there are no hermaphrodites. Clearly there are, so your argument is incorrect. You have not refuted my statements.
I disagree.
I don't care if you disagree. Citing some random passage does not give weight to your claim.
I disagree. It is a modern, liberal, homosexually-soft interpretation that most often suggests these verses refer to prostitution.
So what if it's modern and liberal. This doesn't make the claim incorrect.

In context, clearly they do not. And while I don't think transgendered fixation and homosexuality are identical, I do think they have things in common.
If they are not identical, then they are off topic. In context, they clearly do discuss prostitution. They cannot discuss homosexuality because first off, it's a banned topic and you wouldn't be discussing that unless you want to get in trouble. Second, homosexuality refers to men with men and women with women- same sex attractions. The verse discusses only men with men. Lastly, it is in a section of Leviticus that clearly discusses foreign practices. Your 'context' debunks your claim.

I disagree. I think it quite on topic.

What distinction this passage offers between the sexes is implicit - like the sign on the door to the woman's washroom. The qualities of the woman in the passage are not confined necessarily to married women.
Pro 31:10 A capable wife who can find? She is far more precious than jewels.
Pro 31:11 The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he will have no lack of gain.
Pro 31:12 She does him good, and not harm, all the days of her life.
Pro 31:13 She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands.
Pro 31:14 She is like the ships of the merchant, she brings her food from far away.
Pro 31:15 She rises while it is still night and provides food for her household and tasks for her servant-girls.
Pro 31:16 She considers a field and buys it; with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard.
Pro 31:17 She girds herself with strength, and makes her arms strong.
Pro 31:18 She perceives that her merchandise is profitable. Her lamp does not go out at night.
Pro 31:19 She puts her hands to the distaff, and her hands hold the spindle.
Pro 31:20 She opens her hand to the poor, and reaches out her hands to the needy.
Pro 31:21 She is not afraid for her household when it snows, for all her household are clothed in crimson.
Pro 31:22 She makes herself coverings; her clothing is fine linen and purple.
Pro 31:23 Her husband is known in the city gates, taking his seat among the elders of the land.
Pro 31:24 She makes linen garments and sells them; she supplies the merchant with sashes.
Pro 31:25 Strength and dignity are her clothing, and she laughs at the time to come.
Pro 31:26 She opens her mouth with wisdom, and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.
Pro 31:27 She looks well to the ways of her household, and does not eat the bread of idleness.
Pro 31:28 Her children rise up and call her happy; her husband too, and he praises her:
Pro 31:29 "Many women have done excellently, but you surpass them all."
Pro 31:30 Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain, but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
Pro 31:31 Give her a share in the fruit of her hands, and let her works praise her in the city gates.

I'm sorry, but what part of that isn't talking about married people? The entire segment is prefaced with a discussion of a wife, not women as a whole. Again you ripped the verse out of context.

You see what you want to see I guess...
Cut the personal attacks, they have no place in a discussion. Address the argument, or concede the point.

Another contradiction. And another claim you never supported.
 
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