A Pondering of the Peculiar (4)

[Mr Strawberry]

Keep distracting away from the main point?



The human body is made up of the elements of the soil. Moses was not a scientists with a lab. He could not know specifics. The human body was specifically stated as... being made from the elements of the earth. How did he know?

Mind addressing the point for a change?

Well, the elements come down the food chain. To get a better idea of whereabouts the elements in the human body come from you need to look at where primary producers get most of their mass, and the answer is that most of it comes from the atmosphere. Of course, that leads on to investigating nutrient cycles as well as the interesting journey back in time that is the history of our atmosphere, but it would be a long shot to presume the authors of the bible had any of that in mind when writing about "the dust of the ground".

 

[GenemZ]

Well, the elements come down the food chain.

You are off on a tangent..

To get a better idea of whereabouts the elements in the human body come from you need to look at where primary producers get most of their mass, and the answer is that most of it comes from the atmosphere.

What ever that means... I'm not sure. But what was existing was earth. Soil. From the elements found in the soil the body was molded and formed (yatsar). To replenish these elements plants absorb them from the soil and we eat them, or eat animal flesh that had eaten them.

Of course, that leads on to investigating nutrient cycles as well as the interesting journey back in time that is the history of our atmosphere, but it would be a long shot to presume the authors of the bible had any of that in mind when writing about "the dust of the ground".

The point is? They did not have it in mind. Moses wrote what he was told by the One who does know the function of things. A function that would not be understood in Moses day, but to be understood only thousands of years later after man's knowledge had advanced to the point needed.

Genesis 2:7

Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
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Notice how it does not say.. "formed from the ground." But, specifically from elements from the ground. The term used was dust. Though the Hebrew word could apply to what we refer to as dusty ground, the soil was not arid and dry. The planet at that time was plush and rich.

The body is not the man. What the Lord breathed into the nostrils is what is the man. The soul. Evolution only deals with the body. Evolution can not deal with the soul.

 

[GenemZ]

And considering that when a human body rots away it becomes a pile of oozing smelly compost, it isn't much of a stretch to think that a person is made of the same stuff as dirt. I commend Moses for the observation, but other than that I am not particularly impressed.

Moses got inside the grave and watched the long process of decomposition?

In my youth I have seen a good number of animals that were killed and left to die on the side of the road. What Moses would have seen, would have been bacteria, many flies, maggots, and an occasional buzzard. Same with a human corpse left to rot in the open. There would have been nothing left to observe turn into dust. God's waste disposal service would have removed the carcass long before it could have become dessicated.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

You are off on a tangent..

Well, you have to go off at tangents with this topic because it isn't straightforward.

What ever that means... I'm not sure. But what was existing was earth. Soil. From the elements found in the soil the body was molded and formed (yatsar). To replenish these elements plants absorb them from the soil and we eat them, or eat animal flesh that had eaten them.

Which came first, living organisms or soil? How is soil formed? Soil is a very interesting topic in my opinion, because it can be viewed as the interface between living things, rocks and and the atmosphere. Soil is actually the product of life. The stages of ecological succession are quite enlightening because they give you a new perspective on the landscape.

But, a point I was making that may have been missed is that plants (primary producers that get their energy from the sun, which is then passed onto the primary consumers and so on through the food chain - all energy comes from the sun you see) get most of their mass from the atmosphere. So the "dust of the ground" quote from the bible is a bit off. Unless, that is, one goes way back in time to find out where the gases in the atmosphere come from, but as I said before, that is probably beyond the scope of the bible authors.


I'll leave the rest of your post as it sort of depends on the first part of your post.

 

[GenemZ]

Which came first, living organisms or soil?

Soil. Living organisms were added to the soil after. The soil is rich with micro organisms.

How is soil formed?

Formed? Or, modified? God created the earth. Or, it just happened after a million trillion random exchanges with nothing.

Soil is a very interesting topic in my opinion, because it can be viewed as the interface between living things, rocks and and the atmosphere.

The soil also holds a powerful negative charge essential to the well being of living creatures.

Soil is actually the product of life. The stages of ecological succession are quite enlightening because they give you a new perspective on the landscape.

Soil has been modified by what grows in the soil.

But, a point I was making that may have been missed is that plants (primary producers that get their energy from the sun, which is then passed onto the primary consumers and so on through the food chain - all energy comes from the sun you see) get most of their mass from the atmosphere.

Before the fall of Adam all creatures were vegetarians.

So the "dust of the ground" quote from the bible is a bit off. Unless, that is, one goes way back in time to find out where the gases in the atmosphere come from, but as I said before, that is probably beyond the scope of the bible authors.

It was the freshest soil in this creation's history. Plants were first beginning to sprout and grow just before Adam's body was formed from the elements of the soil. There was no defecation on the ground at that time.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Soil. Living organisms were added to the soil after. The soil is rich with micro organisms.

Living organisms are necessary for the formation of soil. Soil is a product of life. Put simply, if you start with rock surface, weathering allows lichen and similar hardy species to gain a foothold. These break down the rock very slowly allowing other species to arrive, further breaking down the rock and depositing organic matter that begins to accumulate. Fast forward in time and you start to get a soil layer.

Formed? Or, modified? God created the earth. Or, it just happened after a million trillion random exchanges with nothing.

Soil formation can be observed.

The soil also holds a powerful negative charge essential to the well being of living creatures.

Well, yes, although overall soil is neutral, but cation exchange capacity is to do with clay minerals and organic matter being negatively charged. But plants get most of their mass from the atmosphere. And water.

Soil has been modified by what grows in the soil.

It's a process. Soil is in a continual state of recycling.

Before the fall of Adam all creatures were vegetarians.

And as we know, plants derive most of their mass from the atmosphere and water. The bible authors don't appear to know this.

It was the freshest soil in this creation's history. Plants were first beginning to sprout and grow just before Adam's body was formed from the elements of the soil.

Again, the point is that the mass in animals comes from plants and as we know most of that mass comes from the atmosphere. Not the ground.

There was no defecation on the ground at that time.

That's nice.

 

[GenemZ]

Living organisms are necessary for the formation of soil. Soil is a product of life. Put simply, if you start with rock surface, weathering allows lichen and similar hardy species to gain a foothold.

So... I can gather from what you said. The very first organisms diet consisted of rock and sunshine and water. And what we call soil, was originally rock.

 

[Dizredux]

So... I can gather from what you said. The very first organisms diet consisted of rock and sunshine and water. And what we call soil, was originally rock.

Just sticking my head in a little. Some sort of energy source is needed for life. One of the possibilities that are being considered is black smokers, thermal vents from volcanic action as a possible starting place for life to form.

There are other possibilities though but all trace back to an energy source of which simple sunlight is one.

Dizredux

 

[PsychoSarah]

Moses got inside the grave and watched the long process of decomposition?

In my youth I have seen a good number of animals that were killed and left to die on the side of the road. What Moses would have seen, would have been bacteria, many flies, maggots, and an occasional buzzard. Same with a human corpse left to rot in the open. There would have been nothing left to observe turn into dust. God's waste disposal service would have removed the carcass long before it could have become dessicated.

Perhaps not a human body necessarily, but an animal body easily. A human body would have been buried. Or, perhaps Moses saw an old battle field filled with rotting corpses at some point (it happens).

 

[GenemZ]

Perhaps not a human body necessarily, but an animal body easily. A human body would have been buried. Or, perhaps Moses saw an old battle field filled with rotting corpses at some point (it happens).

Have you ever yourself seen a rotting dead animal on the ground? There is nothing there that would remotely suggest its made from dust Turn it over with a stick and you'll see all sorts of bugs that will be feeding on it. You can sometimes see crows in the road picking away. Dead bodies were eaten up long before the type of example you gave could have been witnessed to...Which would have to have been under very arid conditions... while having the vulture population gone extinct in that area.

While battles raged the vultures were already gathering above. The vultures were the great garbage disposal service in the ancient world. And, lets not forget those housekeeping maggots. Moses could not have seen what you claim.

Matthew 24:28

Wherever the carcass is, there the vultures will gather.




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[PsychoSarah]

Have you ever yourself seen a rotting dead animal on the ground? There is nothing there that would remotely suggest its made from dust Turn it over with a stick and you'll see all sorts of bugs that will be feeding on it. You can sometimes see crows in the road picking away. Dead bodies were eaten up long before the type of example you gave could have been witnessed to...under very arid conditions... and having the vulture population gone extinct.

While battles raged the vultures were already gathering above. The vultures were the great garbage disposal service in the ancient world. And, lets not forget those housekeeping maggots. Moses could not have seen what you claim.

Matthew 24:28

Wherever the carcass is, there the vultures will gather.
​

You haven't seen very advanced rot, probably because road commissions usually take care of it. If you burned a body to ash, I could see how one would interpret that as dust, and cremation has historically been a very common practice.

 

[GenemZ]

You haven't seen very advanced rot, probably because road commissions usually take care of it. If you burned a body to ash, I could see how one would interpret that as dust, and cremation has historically been a very common practice.

You keep missing the issue. Burn a body? Burn a steak? The ancients did not see soil come out of it. They had no way to know what it consisted of.
Why can't you get that? For an ancient to know the body consisted of the elements of the earth? They would have to seen a body turn into soil. Otherwise? That had no means to determinate what the decayed body was made of. Not unless God told them. Or, Mr. Evolution.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

So... I can gather from what you said. The very first organisms diet consisted of rock and sunshine and water. And what we call soil, was originally rock.

You are missing out the atmosphere. Only 3 or 4% of plant mass is derived directly from the soil, and as you eat plants, or animals that eat plants, or animals that eat animals that eat plants, your body mass is similarly mostly from water and the atmosphere. So to say that your body is made from the "dust of the ground" is to ignore roughly 95% of your body mass.

(I'm not worrying about the confusion raised by the phrase "very first organisms" as that is too big of a tangent to go off on.)

 

[GenemZ]

You are missing out the atmosphere. Only 3 or 4% of plant mass is derived directly from the soil, and as you eat plants, or animals that eat plants, or animals that eat animals that eat plants, your body mass is similarly mostly from water and the atmosphere. So to say that your body is made from the "dust of the ground" is to ignore roughly 95% of your body mass.

Your reasoning is like believing that a balloon that is filled is made of 99.7% air.

The balloon is not the air. But, air is a part of its function. Nor, is the body the water. It simply contains amounts of water for enabling the body to function. Otherwise you'd be pee'ing away your body every day.

 

[GenemZ]

If you burned a body to ash, I could see how one would interpret that as dust, and cremation has historically been a very common practice.

As an ancient I would see it as dust. Yes.. But, unless told otherwise? I would make no connection between the dust I saw from cremation and the soil. How could they know? They had no means to analyze the substance.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Your reasoning is like believing that a balloon that is filled is made of 99.7% air.

The balloon is not the air. But, air is a part of its function. Nor, is the body the water. It simply contains amounts of water for enabling the body to function. Otherwise you'd be pee'ing away your body every day.

OK, we can ignore water if you like. We can still say most of your mass is derived from the atmosphere.

 

[GenemZ]

OK, we can ignore water if you like. We can still say most of your mass is derived from the atmosphere.

What is of the atmosphere that we do not find in the elements of the soil?

 

[Mr Strawberry]

What is of the atmosphere that we do not find in the elements of the soil?

But soil is not where we get the majority of our body mass from. Remember in my first post on this subject when I referred to the long history of the atmosphere and nutrient cycles? Here it is again:

Well, the elements come down the food chain. To get a better idea of whereabouts the elements in the human body come from you need to look at where primary producers get most of their mass, and the answer is that most of it comes from the atmosphere. Of course, that leads on to investigating nutrient cycles as well as the interesting journey back in time that is the history of our atmosphere, but it would be a long shot to presume the authors of the bible had any of that in mind when writing about "the dust of the ground".

That more or less covered it.

 

[GenemZ]

You have obviously never seen a human body left to rot on the ground and you're right there is nothing there that would remotely suggest its made from dust, although the parts as they dry do sometimes blow away, that's because like other animals we consist mostly of water.
Man, dog or elephant we all rot down exactly the same when we let nature take it's course..

I'll go back to the point. There was no way Moses could have known what the human body was made of. Is the dust of your house the same as that of a dessicated human body? No! Moses had no way to know that the human body was made from the elements of the earth by mere observation. It would require lab testing.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I'll go back to the point. There was no way Moses could have known what the human body was made of. Is the dust of your house the same as that of a dessicated human body? No! Moses had no way to know that the human body was made from the elements of the earth by mere observation. It would require lab testing.

It wasn't a unique idea, it was common thinking, why don't you understand that the "elements of the earth" would have been something like earth, water, fire, and air?