A poll on birth control

[TwinCrier]

Why do you think just adultry leads to pregnancy? This is so one sided. So you don't believe in education either. Are you for birth control or against, can't tell because you seem clouded.

Do you know what I mean when I say "fundamentalist"? I'm talking extreme-(social and polictical point of views).I think sometimes certain Christians and some sects become fundalmentalist, like fundamentalist Islam. Taking everything so literally.

I don't think just adultry leads to pregnancy, it leads to many diseases that fidelity and monogomy can't offer. I'm all for education though. If people had any idea how truly unreliable and dangerous their pills and devices were I scarely think any sane person would do that to themselves. I am against birth control. Christians shouldn't shun God's blessings.

Such a negative view of the world. Let's embrace what we do have and what better solutions there are instead of focusing on the bad. Sex shouldn't be seen as an evil, it's the hearts and minds of those people that make sex sleazy.

Right, and the main way of doing this is to turn it into recreation and say it's just for pleasure and that the way God designed the body is wrong and must be altered with drugs and devices. Sex is a wonderful thing when a man and woman do it in the confines of marriage the way God intended. If you're lucky, once in a while you may even be blessed with another human creation from God. It wasn't God's plan for man to manipulate the body to prevent birth, then turn around and manipulate it again when He closes the womb.
I read once that a poll taken at a fertility clinic revealed that 100% of people seeking treatment had used a form of birth control previously. Strange that.

 

[crumbs2000]

We can't control the world and the people in it. As long as we are existing, there will be people having sex. Birth control/contraception has its advantages and disadvantages.
Advantage, prevention of unwanted pregnancy, prevention of disease, control of hormones.
Disadvantages-moral.(according to certain churches), population drop.
Sure abstinence is one form of birth control, but it's not realistic. As long as there's man and woman, there is sex and what follows sometimes is unwanted pregnancies. I don't think it is fair that we don't educate or even advise young girls and boys about the use of contraception and birth control and how to be responsible with it. We can't control people so prevention is better. Even in countries like Africa where aids is so widespread, the women have to be protected.
Remember that abortion, contraception and birth control affects happy married couples. We have not right passing judgement. We don't know their reasons(married or not), but for now, just pray for them, they make the right decisions.
In this society, birth control can't be ignored or shunned. I still believe if professionally monitored, that it can be administered responsibly. Communication is the key also, especially between family members-wife, husband, child and parents. Parents should especially talk to daughters and sons, being responsible parents is the best thing for their futures.

 

[lismore]

And where does it talk about drinking?
.

1 Timothy 5:23 NIV
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

Luke 7:34 NIV
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." '

Sex was for pleasure, to add or take anything away from that is making Scripture fit a dogma. Sorry, I won't bite.

Malachi 2:15 NIV
Has not the LORD made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring.

Genesis 9:7 NIV
As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."

Psalm 127

3 Sons are a heritage from the LORD,
children a reward from him.

The scripture tells you to abstain from sexual relations at certain times, not for pleasurable reasons:

When a woman has her menstrual flow, she shall be in a state of impurity for seven days. Anyone who touches her shall be unclean until evening." [Lv. 15:19]
"If a man dares to lie with her {during the period of menstrual uncleanness}, he contracts her impurity and shall be unclean for seven days; every bed on which he then lies also becomes unclean." [Lv. 15:24]
"If she becomes freed from her affliction, she shall wait seven days, and only then is she to be purified." [Lv. 15:28]
"You shall not approach a woman to have intercourse with her while she is unclean from menstruation." [Lv. 18:19]
"If a man lies in sexual intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period, both of them shall be cut off from their people, because they have laid bare the flowing fountain of her blood." [Lv. 20:18]

"Thus the word of the LORD came to me: Son of man, when the house of Israel lived in their land, they defiled it by their conduct and deeds. In my sight their conduct was like the defilement of a menstruous woman. Therefore I poured out my fury upon them (because of the blood which they poured out on the ground, and because they defiled it with idols). I scattered them among the nations, dispersing them over foreign lands; according to their conduct and deeds I judged them." [Eze. 36:16-19]


​

http://www.trosch.org/the/failed_sodomy.html

This article puts contraception under sodomy.

Nowhere does scripture tell you to interupt the conception process. Onan did, he tried his way of contraception, God was not pleased because sex is for producing the baby, not for gratifying the sin nature.

 

[lismore]

It wasn't God's plan for man to manipulate the body to prevent birth, then turn around and manipulate it again when He closes the womb.
.

50,000 amens to you

 

[crumbs2000]

The scripture tells you to abstain from sexual relations at certain times, not for pleasurable reasons:

When a woman has her menstrual flow, she shall be in a state of impurity for seven days. Anyone who touches her shall be unclean until evening." [Lv. 15:19]
"If a man dares to lie with her {during the period of menstrual uncleanness}, he contracts her impurity and shall be unclean for seven days; every bed on which he then lies also becomes unclean." [Lv. 15:24]
"If she becomes freed from her affliction, she shall wait seven days, and only then is she to be purified." [Lv. 15:28]
"You shall not approach a woman to have intercourse with her while she is unclean from menstruation." [Lv. 18:19]
"If a man lies in sexual intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period, both of them shall be cut off from their people, because they have laid bare the flowing fountain of her blood." [Lv. 20:18]

"Thus the word of the LORD came to me: Son of man, when the house of Israel lived in their land, they defiled it by their conduct and deeds. In my sight their conduct was like the defilement of a menstruous woman. Therefore I poured out my fury upon them (because of the blood which they poured out on the ground, and because they defiled it with idols). I scattered them among the nations, dispersing them over foreign lands; according to their conduct and deeds I judged them." [Eze. 36:16-19]​

Obviously you would be abstaining from certain times when a woman is menstruating. Most men respect that this is the time the month. So what is your point. This also maybe scripture, but it also treats the menstrual cycle in an evil way. We live in a different society now, and this sort of attitude towards women should be changed. Menstruation should not be seen as a defilement. It is part of nature/human. God created woman as well, he gave woman something special (child bearing) and menstruation is part of it. I know what you are saying, but it doesn't belong here. Also in that article you linked to us... one of the reasons why woman are more responsive sexually during certain times, usually just before her period, is due to the fact that her body is telling her this is the time to get fertilise. It's a last chance before her period commences. It's actually NOT her fault, her body(hormones part of her brain), is letting her know when the right time is.
IMO having sex just for the purpose of having babies isn't totally correct. So you are saying that even marriaged couples shouldn't be having sex all the time. They love each other don't they, they love to share each other?? Why would God give us pleasure then. Besides sex isn't as simple as you make it out to be. Its actually quite complex.
As for the sodomy thing you posted as well, it has not credence in this thread. The article is too biased anyway. Like I said, you can't control the world, so being responsible and using contraception is one way to prevent abortion due to unneccessary pregnancies.
LIFE ISN'T SO BLACK AND WHITE.

 

[lismore]

.
LIFE ISN'T SO BLACK AND WHITE.

Yes it is. Good and evil. God and Satan. Jesus the only way to salvation. Inventing grey areas is only an excuse to continue sinning.

 

[crumbs2000]

Yes it is. Good and evil. God and Satan. Jesus the only way to salvation. Inventing grey areas is only an excuse to continue sinning.

If life was so black and white, why we having so many problems, especially with communication? Sorry but I'm more forgiving, but most people live in the "grey" areas of life. That's what makes life so much more interesting as well.

 

[crumbs2000]

1 Timothy 5:23 NIV
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

Luke 7:34 NIV
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." '




Malachi 2:15 NIV
Has not the LORD made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring.

Genesis 9:7 NIV
As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."

Psalm 127

3 Sons are a heritage from the LORD,
children a reward from him.

The scripture tells you to abstain from sexual relations at certain times, not for pleasurable reasons:

When a woman has her menstrual flow, she shall be in a state of impurity for seven days. Anyone who touches her shall be unclean until evening." [Lv. 15:19]
"If a man dares to lie with her {during the period of menstrual uncleanness}, he contracts her impurity and shall be unclean for seven days; every bed on which he then lies also becomes unclean." [Lv. 15:24]
"If she becomes freed from her affliction, she shall wait seven days, and only then is she to be purified." [Lv. 15:28]
"You shall not approach a woman to have intercourse with her while she is unclean from menstruation." [Lv. 18:19]
"If a man lies in sexual intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period, both of them shall be cut off from their people, because they have laid bare the flowing fountain of her blood." [Lv. 20:18]

"Thus the word of the LORD came to me: Son of man, when the house of Israel lived in their land, they defiled it by their conduct and deeds. In my sight their conduct was like the defilement of a menstruous woman. Therefore I poured out my fury upon them (because of the blood which they poured out on the ground, and because they defiled it with idols). I scattered them among the nations, dispersing them over foreign lands; according to their conduct and deeds I judged them." [Eze. 36:16-19]


​

http://www.trosch.org/the/failed_sodomy.html

This article puts contraception under sodomy.

Nowhere does scripture tell you to interupt the conception process. Onan did, he tried his way of contraception, God was not pleased because sex is for producing the baby, not for gratifying the sin nature.

If you are going to quote old testament then you must also read parts of the bible which state that POLYGAMY is OK.

POLYGAMY (part 1) - Genesis 4:19
Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah.

POLYGAMY (part 2) - Genesis 28:8
Esau then realized how displeasing the Canaanite women were to his father Isaac; 9 so he went to Ishmael and married Mahalath, the sister of Nebaioth and daughter of Ishmael son of Abraham, in addition to the wives he already had.

POLYGAMY (part 3) AND EXTRAMARITAL SEX - Genesis 30:3-10
Then she [Rachel] said, "Here is Bilhah, my maidservant. Sleep with her so that she can bear children for me and that through her I too can build a family." So she gave him her servant Bilhah as a wife. Jacob slept with her, and she became pregnant and bore him a son. Then Rachel said, "God has vindicated me; he has listened to my plea and given me a son." Because of this she named him Dan. Rachel's servant Bilhah conceived again and bore Jacob a second son. Then Rachel said, "I have had a great struggle with my sister, and I have won." So she named him Naphtali. When Leah saw that she had stopped having children, she took her maidservant Zilpah and gave her to Jacob as a wife. Leah's servant Zilpah bore Jacob a son.

POLYGAMY (part 4) - Genesis 30:26
Give me my wives and children, for whom I have served you, and I will be on my way. You know how much work I've done for you.

POLYGAMY (part 5) - Genesis 31:17
Then Jacob put his children and his wives on camels, ...

POLYGAMY (part 6) - Genesis 31:50
If you mistreat my daughters or if you take any wives besides my daughters, even though no one is with us, remember that God is a witness between you and me.

POLYGAMY (part 7) - Genesis 32:22
That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok.

POLYGAMY (part 8) - Genesis 36:2
Esau took his wives from the women of Canaan: Adah daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Oholibamah daughter of Anah and granddaughter of Zibeon the Hivite.

POLYGAMY (part 9) - Genesis 37:2
This is the account of Jacob. Joseph, a young man of seventeen, was tending the flocks with his brothers, the sons of Bilhah and the sons of Zilpah, his father's wives, and he brought their father a bad report about them.

POLYGAMY (part 10) - Exodus 21:7-10 (NIV)
If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, [a] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights.

POLYGAMY (part 11) - Exodus 22:24
[God:] "My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless."

POLYGAMY (part 12) - Exodus 32:2
Aaron answered them, "Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me."

POLYGAMY (part 13) - Deuteronomy 21:15-16
If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love, when he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love.

POLYGAMY (part 14) - 2 Samuel 5:13
After he left Hebron, David took more concubines and wives in Jerusalem, and more sons and daughters were born to him.

POLYGAMY (part 15) - 1 Kings 11:3
[King Solomon] had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray.

POLYGAMY (part 16) - Judges 8:30
And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body begotten — for he had many wives.

POLYGAMY (part 17) - 2 Chron 11:21
Rehoboam loved Maacah daughter of Absalom more than any of his other wives and concubines. In all, he had eighteen wives and sixty concubines, twenty-eight sons and sixty daughters.

WHAT ABOUT INCEST???
INCEST - Genesis 19:36
So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father.

In conclusion, you can't just selectively quote from the bible. I always believe it's good to give the FULL STORY. There is no statements in the bible stating it mandatory to be married.

QED.

 

[crumbs2000]

Yes it is. Good and evil. God and Satan. Jesus the only way to salvation. Inventing grey areas is only an excuse to continue sinning.

As from my previous post, the whole Bible has a lot of grey areas. What's grey is the often selective interpretation certain Christians have of the bible. You can't just pick out the bits you like and say "Um, oh yes, that's what God meant..." No Polygame, etc. Sex isn't to be enjoyed.... Contraception is = to SODOMY????

I don't think that's actual stated in there...

 

[lismore]

If you are going to quote old testament then you must also read parts of the bible which state that POLYGAMY is OK.

The bible states its not OK but records those who did it.

Deuteronomy 17:17 NIV
He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold.

The same as the bible says trying to stop a woman conceiving is not Ok but records people like Onan who did it.

WHAT ABOUT INCEST???
INCEST - Genesis 19:36
So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father.

Leviticus 18:
6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.

The bible records name of sexual offenders, so what?

In conclusion, you can't just selectively quote from the bible. I always believe it's good to give the FULL STORY. There is no statements in the bible stating it mandatory to be married.

QED.

Actually Im not talking about marriage. This is a thread about abortion/ contraception.

If you do not want children pray to the Lord to close the womb, then have your pleasure. That way Jesus is still Lord. If you just use full or partial abortion then this disobedience. So far no one has posted a scripture saying God wants you to interrupt the conception process. God forms the child in the hidden place, life is sacred.

 

[lismore]

As from my previous post, the whole Bible has a lot of grey areas. ..

The bible talks about light/ darkness, never 'grey areas'.

if you can please post a scriptural reference that mentions the phrase 'grey areas'

Isaiah 5:20 NIV
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

 

[lismore]

IMO having sex just for the purpose of having babies isn't totally correct.

Friend,

God couldnt say it any clearer:

Malachi 2

15 Has not the LORD made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring.

Because 'he wanted them to have pleasure' is not mentioned. Try again.

 

[crumbs2000]

Friend,

God couldnt say it any clearer:

Malachi 2

15 Has not the LORD made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring.

Because 'he wanted them to have pleasure' is not mentioned. Try again.

Who are we to judge what others do in the privacy of their homes anyway. I'm sorry, but people are only HUMAN. This is what I mean by grey area: Not everybody wants to have children, so why should they have to abstain from sex. Even married couples don't want children. As for saying "pray to the Lord the womb closes", are you suggesting that people who have sex without the reason for having children or unmarried should be sterilized. I think that is quite harsh. You are twisting the word "pleasure" around to sound sleasy. Without pleasure and desire you can't have sex, therefore have children.
Back to the contraception debate, It will always be out there for people to access, for whatever reasons. I've already gone into my pros and cons regarding it. I don't see why christians can't use birth control. If there is a good reason, I don't think anyone has any right condemning them. I don't think God/Jesus is going to strike them dead. Besides (oh here we go...) It is a womans decision as to what she does to her body. It is also a couples decision to use birth control if they are not ready. Just remember we aren't perfect, we make mistakes, I think you are not looking at the big picture and as to why people make the decision to use birth control. Your viewing b/c in a 'perverted' way, which is not IMO healthy.

 

[crumbs2000]

The bible states its not OK but records those who did it.

Deuteronomy 17:17 NIV
He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold.

The same as the bible says trying to stop a woman conceiving is not Ok but records people like Onan who did it.




Leviticus 18:
6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.

The bible records name of sexual offenders, so what?



Actually Im not talking about marriage. This is a thread about abortion/ contraception.

If you do not want children pray to the Lord to close the womb, then have your pleasure. That way Jesus is still Lord. If you just use full or partial abortion then this disobedience. So far no one has posted a scripture saying God wants you to interrupt the conception process. God forms the child in the hidden place, life is sacred.

As for polygamy:
In biblical times, polygamy was permitted. The Bible, in tolerating polygamy, gives evidence that the practice had long been an accepted social institution when these laws were written down. In the patriarchal age polygamy is regarded as an unquestioned custom. While the Bible gives a reason for the action of Abraham in taking Hagar for an additional wife and, in the case of Jacob, for having Rachel as a wife besides Leah, it only proves that polygamy as well as concubinage, with which it was always associated, was among the mores of the ancient Hebrew people (Gen. 16:1-4; 29:23-28).
Polygamy was such a well established part of the social system that Mosaic law is not even critical of it. We find only certain regulations with respect to it; as, for example, if a man takes a second wife the economic position of the first wife and of the children she bore must be secure; and, in the case of inheritance, no
child of a subsequent marriage is to be preferred over a child from the first wife. Other regulations were that the high priest could have only one wife and that a king in Israel should not have too many wives
(Lev. 21:13; Deut. 17:17; Ex. 21:10). The last injunction, however, was of no effect. David had seven wives before he began to reign in Jerusalem, and an extraordinary number of wives and concubines has
been attributed to Solomon (II Sam 3:2- 5, 14; 5:13). In connection with David, the prophet Nathan did not denounce the king for adding Uriah's wife to those he already had but for the means he employed to
secure her (II Sam. 12:7-15).

 

[lismore]

Who are we to judge what others do in the privacy of their homes anyway. I'm sorry, but people are only HUMAN. This is what I mean by grey area: Not everybody wants to have children, so why should they have to abstain from sex. Even married couples don't want children. As for saying "pray to the Lord the womb closes", are you suggesting that people who have sex without the reason for having children or unmarried should be sterilized.

Sterilised? . Of course not. im saying make Jesus Lord in everything. Every hair on a person's head is numbered everyone is precious to him, he know every part of their lives. So if he is so interested in your pleasure you can explain to him that you want sex without the pregnancy consequences and he will honour that?

If you take conception into your hands, Jesus is not Lord.

I think that is quite harsh. You are twisting the word "pleasure" around to sound sleasy. Without pleasure and desire you can't have sex, therefore have children.

2 Timothy 3:4 NIV
treacherous, rash, conceited, rather than lovers of God—

Jesus is Lord~make him Lord~ask him, im sure if your case is so strong he will undertake for you and interupt the conception process?

It is a womans decision as to what she does to her body.

1 Corinthians 6:20 NIV
you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

It is also a couples decision to use birth control if they are not ready. Just remember we aren't perfect, we make mistakes, I think you are not looking at the big picture and as to why people make the decision to use birth control. Your viewing b/c in a 'perverted' way, which is not IMO healthy.

Birth control originated in ancient Egypt. What does the Lord say about using birth control? '0'.

But he says children are a gift from the Lord. he says he wants Godly offspring. Stop kicking against the goads!

GBU

 

[crumbs2000]

"If you do not want children pray to the Lord to close the womb, then have your pleasure."

Sorry, but I can only interpret what is being said. Unfortunately Jesus is not going to close the womb for every women. This is not so simple. All woman are different, some fall pregnant easily some harder. Anyway, there are other ways for a woman not to fall pregnant by not using birth control.
So are you also suggesting that you only have sex if you are going to have a baby? You can't possibly tell me that most couples including christians, don't make love inbetween those times of " let's have a baby"??

As for the pleasure thing. I knew it would get twisted around. Why are you suggesting my pleasure. I wasn't talking about me, I'm talking about the nature of sex-that pleasure is part of the sex. Pleasure helps stimulation, the man has to be stimulated so he can actually release his seed. Still, you are seeing pleasure as selfish and conceited. I mean God created us, he wants us to have children, he gave us organs to reproduce with, why would he create us a sexless? He gave us emotions. The only sex without pleasure to me is rape and female circumcision. God didn't give women female circumcisions when he created us, so it's all there for a reason.

One last point:restraining reproduction is not rejected in Judaism--in situations where the mother's life is in danger physically or psychologically or in a family filled with friction and dysfunction and in other specific situations external birth control devices such as contraceptives or IUDs may be used.

Don't get me wrong, I love children, they are little miracles, but I think there should be an option for people. I don't think it is selfish, if a couple or person(s) want to consider b/c. I think it can be a little selfish when children are born to people that are rejected. But this issue is too broad to get into right now...

 

[IchoozJC]

I'm glad I found this post. Me and my fiance have been discussing this issue to some degree. We will be getting married in 2 weeks, praise God!!! But we've been a little concerned about whether we should use bc or not. I have to ask this:

Since we both have a strong desire to have children, but looking at our current circumstances it seems that we are not in the best place to have one yet, is it ok to use bc until we are better prepared? The big kicker is that we won't have medical coverage for the delivery for a few more months. We are getting insurance soon, but most insurance plans won't cover a delivery until 12 months after signing up. And this may seem a little selfish, but we'd like to spend some time just me and her enjoying eachother for a little while before we had a child to care for.

So is BC wrong if it's only used to delay the inevitable until we are better prepared? In bible times I don't think it was as much as a financial strain to have a baby, where today it could put you in the poor house real quick if your not prepared.

Further, right now I don't see anything good with patches or pills, but don't see barrier methods as evil in any way. I'm asking for real advice here, but as always God will be my guide as I read the word, seek cousil, and listen for His guidance. Thanks for any insight!

 

[crumbs2000]

I'm glad I found this post. Me and my fiance have been discussing this issue to some degree. We will be getting married in 2 weeks, praise God!!! But we've been a little concerned about whether we should use bc or not. I have to ask this:

Since we both have a strong desire to have children, but looking at our current circumstances it seems that we are not in the best place to have one yet, is it ok to use bc until we are better prepared? The big kicker is that we won't have medical coverage for the delivery for a few more months. We are getting insurance soon, but most insurance plans won't cover a delivery until 12 months after signing up. And this may seem a little selfish, but we'd like to spend some time just me and her enjoying eachother for a little while before we had a child to care for.

So is BC wrong if it's only used to delay the inevitable until we are better prepared? In bible times I don't think it was as much as a financial strain to have a baby, where today it could put you in the poor house real quick if your not prepared.

Further, right now I don't see anything good with patches or pills, but don't see barrier methods as evil in any way. I'm asking for real advice here, but as always God will be my guide as I read the word, seek cousil, and listen for His guidance. Thanks for any insight!

I don't see anything wrong with using b/c until you are completely ready. As long as you have plenty of communication between you and your partner, maybe even go to the doctors to discuss the options available for you. I don't see anything wrong with prolonging, I'm sure God will understand, he is forgiving after all!! Spend some quality time with your partner. You will both know when the right time comes along. Don't be pressured by negativity, just do what you feel is right for you and your partner. Good luck and let us know when you do finally get pregnant.

 

[crumbs2000]

Hi

Do you have a scriptural reference for that?

Well do you have anything from the scripture that says you shouldn't have any pleasure from sex? Just because sex is used for procreation doesn't mean it precludes any pleasure. It's made to be a pleasurable experience so that creatures like us will WANT to go and propagate the species. I'm sorry but you can't have one without the other.

If having sex is as horrible as being tortured, why would anyone want to do it? The human race would die off quickly.

Lust is a symptom of our desire to propagate.

 

[crumbs2000]

Friend,

God couldnt say it any clearer:

Malachi 2

15 Has not the LORD made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring.

Because 'he wanted them to have pleasure' is not mentioned. Try again.

Lismore, you can't extrapolate what isn't written. As I said, God made the sexual experience pleasurable so that animals and people WILL want to carry on to propagate the race.

If it isn't written there in the bible, you can't speculate with statements saying, HE didn't want us to experience pleasure from sex.

And your quote from Malachi is taken out of context, perhaps before you post a partial text like that you may want to give a background of what Malachi 2 particularly starting from verse 10. In fact that whole passage your quote from scripture comes from has nothing to do with birth control or sex should not be a pleasurable thing.

I'm quite curious why you persistantly quote a sentence of two, and try and fit it into your idea of how it relates to this thread.

For those people interested, they should read Malachi 2 in its entireity. In fact a lot of Malachi 2 is directed at priests who have turned the wrong path, and Malachi 2 v15, just says that you should have children who are truly God's offspring.

????