A paradigm shift

ByTheSpirit

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Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned..

I've not met many people, believers or otherwise who would deny their sin nature. The vast majority of people are willing to admit they have made mistakes (just another word for sin). Here we all knew that at one point, and knew that we had to be made right with God, for "the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23) We had to be rescued from our sinfulness that we inherited from Adam. Just as Paul wrote in Romans 5, that was an characteristic/personality trait that we inherited from our father, Adam. When a child is born into the world, we like to look at them and decide whose eyes they have, who's facial features, etc... This is because we all understand the concept of genetic inheritance and that we pass our DNA and personalities and characteristics to our children. This concept in the natural mirrors the concept in the spiritual and that is what Paul describes in Romans 5. Adam sinned and as a result, sin passed from him to all of us, that is our spiritual inheritance. THANKS ADAM! The one who is stuck in this frame of mind will exhibit all the fruits of the flesh as described by Paul in Galatians 5:19-21, “The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.” But this is not a discussion about our fallen nature that we inherited from Adam so let me get to where I'm going here:

Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Paul doesn't stop writing after he describes our fallen nature and where it comes from and what results from it. Praise God it didn't end there. You see, when we believed in Christ, we received new birth by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3, 16; John 11:26; Acts 16:31). Born into the family of God, with God Himself becoming our Father (Romans 8:15; Gal 4:5-7). As a result of this process, we become co-heirs with Christ of the inheritance of God (Acts 20:32; Romans 8:17; Gal 4:7; Eph 3:6; 2 Tim 2:12; Titus 3:7; Heb 1:2; 1 Peter 1:4; Revelation 21:7). We are literally created brand new by Christ through our faith in Him (2 Cor 5:17). Just as your natural birth resulted in you being born into sin and resulting in condemnation; your spiritual new birth (being born again) results in you receiving the very righteousness of Christ and eternal life. (2 Cor 5:21; John 3:16) So what does this have to do with us outside of another bible post that most here probably already know?

Christians that I have met and known seem to have this one very big problem that I am sure drives Jesus up the wall of New Jerusalem when He hears us talking about it. SIN… When we talk about sin it shows that our minds have been occupied (even if not entirely) with our flesh and our old nature. A nature that we put to death when we believed (Romans 6:1-14) I think Paul brings this out perfectly in Romans 7 when he has an almost amusing conversation with himself about his sin nature and how it came to be. He describes that our sin nature, our flesh, is brought to life through a realization of what the Law says and is. The Law is of course God’s standard of holiness and righteous, something that no one other than Jesus Christ could ever or has ever kept in perfection (Romans 3:10, 23). It is a frame of mind, he said when the commandment came, knowledge of sin came with it for he did not know what coveting was until he heard, Do not covet (Romans 7:7-8). Then he realized just how sinful and dead he was for he knew at that point he could not keep the law for one who keeps the whole law except by one point is guilty of it all (James 2:10). We actually give sin power over us by pondering on it, by dwelling on it, even on its effect on our lives and past. I believe that Paul is describing this almost, for he immediately goes into what our frame of mind should be as believers in Romans 8.

Romans 8:5-8 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.


To walk with the Spirit, the first thing we must do is allow Him to dominate our thoughts. If we think on and ponder our sins we allow our flesh to have power over us. Come out of that way of thinking! Thank God for all He has done for you! Let His praise ever be on your lips. Pray always in the Spirit with known and unknown languages (Ps 34; Ps 103; Jude 20; 1 Thes 5:16-18; Phil 4:4)

Colossians 3:1-4 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Some years later when writing to the Colossians Paul reinterates his point to them that we must set our minds, our thoughts on things above, things in the Spirit. Why? Well here he even gives a reason, because we have died (with Christ Gal 2:20). We have died to our sin nature (Romans 6:1-14) and are not to give it any room to breathe and become re-invigorated (Romans 7). Set your mind on things of the Spirit Christian! Do not give your flesh any opportunity for sin! (Gal 5:13; Eph 4:27)

Those who live in accordance with the Spirit, or as the NLT says “those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit.” Galatians 5:16-18, “So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.” Walk, be controlled by the Spirit, and you will NOT satisfy your flesh. Life or death? We choose, it starts with our mind, our thoughts! Let the Spirit control your thoughts, let Him guide your way of thinking. Let love, joy, patience, peace, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faith, and self-control flow out of you as you set you mind upon the heavenly glory that will be revealed in you when Christ returns to this earth.

It starts with a paradigm shift. Perhaps you’ve tried to model your life after Christ but just can’t seem to make it work. Well perhaps, this was meant for you! Sin seems to come at all times, even when we say we don’t want it. But make no mistake about it Christian, we decide to sin, it is not something that just happens. We sin because we take our eyes, our MIND off Christ and upon our fleshly desires, for holiness and sin can NOT cohabitate together. I beg you dear brothers and sisters, if this is you, ask the Holy Spirit to forgive you of allowing your thoughts to be dominated by your flesh and it’s desires. Ask Him then to take control then let Him! As I said, thank God always for His goodness and mercy! Praise Him always and forever! Pray at all times under the Spirit’s promptings in known and unknown languages! See how quickly the Holy Spirit will turn what you thought was a hopeless situation into a glorious exhibition of God’s power! All because you thought He was able.

Oh Holy Spirit, forgive me of setting my mind upon my sinful desires! Wash me thoroughly from my iniquities and forgive my sins. I ask You to do what You were sent for. Remind me of Christ. Remind me that I am righteous in Him and Him alone! Fill me with joy and gladness! Help me set my mind upon You and the things that are above that I have in Christ! Amen.
 
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turned around

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Hi,
Paul explains things in Romans that no else could, because Christ revealed it to him. He not only shows the effect of Adam's transgression. He shows the effect of Christ's obedience. Adam's disobedience met its match, by Christ's obedience. Adam's transgression reigned through death. Christ's obedience reigns today as we receive the abundance of grace, and the gift of righteousness provided. He is glorified as we receive his gift.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Because sin in the Bible is both a verb and a noun, a proper definition that covers both is “missing the mark” because the presence of sin that is a noun still living in us will always cause us to miss the mark that is perfection seen in holiness that is without any sin. This is the sin that no man (or woman) can say they are without but does not mean that they are guilty of a transgression they did not commit. However all sin is of the devil whose purpose in their lives is not to stop them from what they have already done (come to the Cross) but stopping the power to become a son of God given through the baptism of the Holy Spirit from completing its purpose in them.

Going by some conversations here it seems as if some have found a way to live their lives without the temptation of sin? If this is true the unfortunate side effect of this is their life and process of sanctification has become stagnant. In this case the "sin in them" has already won because they are no longer a threat to Satan by them becoming a vessel of truth campaigning against lies and false doctrines in the church. These persons may not accept this as true but the fact is the apostles continued to have to deal with the temptations of sin way beyond Ro.7 all the way to the end. For that matter Paul makes it very clear in 2Corr, 12 he prayed asking God three times to remove this temptation removed from to no avail. So unless these Christians have progressed "in Christ" beyond the level of the sanctification of the apostles (despite their own missing signs and wonders) the reason they are not being tempted with sin is not because they have figured out how to beat it, but because sin has at least temporarily stopped their walk towards becoming holy through the fulness of Christ formed in them.

1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


The entire purpose of God in salvation is not just for us to have forgiveness of sins and be able to go to heaven when we die, but in this life to go from being sons (and daughters) of Adam whose nature is to disobey God to become the sons of God whose walk on earth should no less than that of the first century apostles who were a prophecy of a ministry that would appear at a later date in time.

The apostles and others of the first century church became “sons of God” who understood the truth of God's plan for man that allowed them to be in harmony with God. These were the elders of the first century church whether they were apostles, or those chosen by the apostles. It is these persons whom the laypeople of the first century church could go to when they were sick to be prayed over and healed through God answering the prayers of these elders who had become “sons of God”. These are the signs and wonders that Jesus said would follow those who believed in him and are the necessary witness needed for one to pass the litmus test of whether or not God's approval is upon a person's ministry as one of His sons (or daughters)

So to those who say they have overcome sin and temptation, they need to read again what James says to you in the words show me your “works of faith” that are not works that can be done by man but only by God.

John 3:2
The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know

Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


God's approval of a person's ministry is shown through signs and wonders following, and without them here is no proof that a person's ministry is approved of by God. It was signs and wonders that distinguished Jesus as being the Son of God, as well as the apostles as being “sons of God” and not just “babes in Christ” who have yet to learn the truth and overcome sin.

Christians whose ministry does not have signs and wonders following them but are no longer tempted by sin themselves, is not because they have overcome sin, but because "sin in them" (either weakness of their flesh or false beliefs in the foundational doctrines of Christ He.6:1-2) has already overcome them.

What does this have to do with my OP? I'm not following....

As far as those last two paragraphs, I can't disagree with you more, but that is not what this OP is about so we can discuss it in another...
 
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1livelystone

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Seemed to me your OP has to do with going from someone fighting against sin to overcoming sin as in their christian life becoming a walk in the park

I disagree with anyone who thinks the daily fight to overcome sin is ever going to become a walk in the park

If I have misunderstood you I apologize and will remove my post and make a different thread where you can contend with what I have said

I am going out for awhile so if you would like this done ask a mod to delete it and I will take care of reposting it in a new thread when I get home

Hope that makes things better by you

Doug
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Seemed to me your OP has to do with going from someone fighting against sin to overcoming sin as in their christian life becoming a walk in the park

I disagree with anyone who thinks the daily fight to overcome sin is ever going to become a walk in the park

If I have misunderstood you I apologize and will remove my post and make a different thread where you can contend with what I have said

I am going out for awhile so if you would like this done ask a mod to delete it and I will take care of reposting it in a new thread when I get home

Hope that makes things better by you

Doug

Nothing of the sort. I was saying that when we focus our thoughts upon ourselves, our flesh and old nature we welcome sin into our reality for that is what we were before Christ. Instead we need to focus on things of the Spirit, the new birth, our new nature that we inherited from Christ. His righteousness, His holiness. We once were characterized by sin and death for we were in Adam, but now are in Christ and have righteousness and life. Nothing walk in the park about it, it's a struggle as Paul described in Romans 7, but EVERY CHRISTIAN can live this way with some discipline (Galatians 5:16-25) and should strive, but it starts with our thoughts and frame of mind. Just as Paul said in Romans 8 and Colossians 3.

It seems too many believers just accept that sin is going to happen and do nothing about it but ask forgiveness and repeat as necessary. Sure that is enough, but no fire will ever get blazing with a constant dousing. Soon the wood gets so wet that fire can not consume it anymore. That's like in the Spirit, we sin and put out the Spirit's fire. But we have a way out. Perhaps many believers just need to be made aware of the ease in which sin can be overcome. We don't overcome sin because we have the ability, we overcome sin because Christ does it through us. Who is more powerful? Christ or sin? So we need to focus our thoughts, our intentions, our entire being, upon Him, upon the Spirit. For when we are in the Spirit, we can not be in sin.

It comes down to the two natures, sin which is the old nature that we are to "reckon as dead" because we were baptized into Christ and His death; or life which is the new nature in the Spirit that we are "children of God" who considers us righteous and holy because He has placed us in Christ His Son. When we focus upon our old nature, sin follows, when we focus upon the new nature, righteousness follows.

But again, nothing easy about it it's a struggle (Romans 7)
 
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K2K

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It starts with a paradigm shift????

I don't know about that! For me it started with a voice telling me "Read Your Bible" and it continued with a relationship with the One who told me those words. He keeps talking to me.

Sometimes I listen (or read) what other Christians write, and it just doesn't make sense to me. My relationship with the Lord is not like a paragigm shift at all, it is like a relationship. We walk together, we talk together. He is wierd, to be sure, but that is because His thoughts are not my thoughts.

For example; Last night I asked Him what His heart was for me. He told me, "Ally, Ally, Oxen, free, free, free"

By which I understand that even if I am working for Him, He wants me free, free, free.

And He told me "Red rover, red rover, send Karl (my name) on over"

By which I understood that though I am covered by the blood I tend to roam around, and He would like me to come over to Him more.

Then He said, "If you don't be come like this little child?"

Of course He was referencing a verse in the Scriptures

And He followed that up by saying. "More than anything, I need you to be like a little child before Me."

I think phrases like - paradigm shift - might have to be thrown out.

And He finised by saying "And it is when you are like that, that I can use you."

Yeah - I meditate on the things He tells me, and even the things I read in the Bible, but it's not a complicated thing. It's not like a paraigm shift, it is like a relationship. A bit of a strange relationship, I admit, but isn't that because His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways not our ways?

So getting all ridge, formal, religeous, or overly mature, doesn't get me anywhere with Him. I have to just come before Him like a child. What else can you do since He is so much beyound us?
 
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ByTheSpirit

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So how do you interpret verses that say, "Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace."

Yes, read the Bible, listen to the voice of God. But what happens when people with a secular mind read the Bible? They get it out of context and misinterpret it... ALL THE TIME... How can we hear the voice of God without being of Him and in Him?

John 8:47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.

John 10:3 ...the sheep listen to his voice.

John 10:4 ...his sheep follow him because they know his voice.

John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

We must walk with the Spirit to bear the fruit of the Spirit, I almost think this is Paul's way of describing the Abiding in Christ relationship of John 15 (both describe bearing fruit) But I could be wrong on that account, but it is true that we can not bear spiritual fruit without walking with the Spirit and Paul says in Romans 8 that to do that we MUST occupy our minds on things of the Spirit...

So again, how does a person who thinks about the flesh and old nature live in the Spirit? They can't the two are against each other. (Romans 7) We either occupy our minds and thoughts on the flesh and give sin an opportunity to reign in us, or we occupy our minds on the Spirit and put our old nature to death.
 
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1livelystone

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The Holy Spirit does not have to be taught how to become "Christ like" and live a sinless life........ it already does this the same as a fish knows how to swim from the time it is born

Therefore, if the HOly Spirit is the spirit in a person's heart they will live a life God approves of and will not sin!!!

On the other hand if the unclean spirit of man is the spirit in the hear sin is bot matter of if but when.

To try to get the spirit (soul) of man to behave like the Holy Spirit is not possible because the mind of man will never become the mind of Christ

Only the Holy Spirit in us can lead us in a life without sin ..........

What one needs to do is figure how He can increase (increase our faith) because beside being the seed of the tree of life in us, the Holy Spirit in us is also the seed of the vine that is Christ in us who is continually killing the host tree the same way vines do in real life....... eventually all the nourishment goes to them and the host tree (the spirit/soul of man) living in our physical flesh starves to death while we live our lives in the flesh yet not us but Christ who died for us :thumbsup:



Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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I mean this as kindly as I can over the internet, what are you talking about?

"To try to get the spirit (soul) of man to behave like the Holy Spirit is not possible because the mind of man will never become the mind of Christ"

FACT CHECK... Uh oh!

For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:16

We had minds of flesh in the old nature but were transformed (hopefully) by the renewing of OUR MINDS (Romans 12:2) and now we have the mind of Christ when we are in that frame of mind (in the Spirit that is Romans 8:5-6 and Colossians 3:1-4)

The Holy Spirit is in us, but He doesn't take over and control us like we are mindless zombie freaks with no will or decision making ability... We have to obey and obedience comes from the heart yes but there is a major element of the mind as well... What's the greatest commandment as quoted from the Lord Himself?

Matthew 22:37

Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment.

Heart, soul, mind... If any one of those is lacking we are sinning. So can a mind focused on the old nature and flesh love God completely? NO because the two are against each other! (Romans 7, Romans 8:7) So take your mind off yourself, off your flesh and old nature. Think about things of the Spirit and you will walk with Him accordingly just as Paul said in Romans 8. I didn't say it, he did, I'm just reemphasizing it.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Here is the problem, at least as I see it. We are told to have our minds renewed AFTER we put off the old man for the old nature CANNOT have a true life-altering paradigm shift and "think better", LOL.

Until we are desperate to be freed from our old nature, and to leave forever the land of Romans 7, and hate our old life, and do not fight to save it but consider losing it a small price to pay for the joy of gaining His life in us, we simply cannot think as a new creature until we believe that we ARE.

Paul told us:

"Now are you children of light in the Lord. Walk as children of light."

Not that he did not tell us "Walk long enough and hard enough and diligently enough as light beings and eventually you will become one".

If we follow that path, as milions have mistakenly done, we find ourselves back to cleaning the outside of our cup as the starting point, and try to defeat our outer visible sins first, and then begin to move inward to our thoughts and finally to the intents of our hearts.

But such is not our amazing gospel, is it? We are told to get our inside clean first...by faith alone, believing that we ARE new, that our old man IS dead, and it is this inner cleansing of our hearts and natures that becomes our shield of faith to allow us to grow IN grace, not into it.

We have ended up wandering in the wilderness, falling to the same unbelief in the promises of God that they did. But it is a new day dawning and the church is being awakened to who we really are. It is our day to choose who we will serve, either ourselves or our God. It is time we lit our lamps and came back into agreement with our God.

Blessings,

Gideon


I really want to focus on the part I highlighted in red above...

Do we believe that we have changed or do we believe that Christ changed us? For Paul says that if any man is in Christ they are a new creation... nothing about that suggests (to me atleast) that we have to agree with that statement first before we can change. The change happens because the Holy Spirit comes upon us at conversion (Ephesians 1:13-14) That is not something we have to agree with to be a new creation, the new creation happens because we believe in Christ. I believe Paul's statements and dictation in Romans 6-7 are largely affected by his statements in Romans 8:5-8 and even Colossians 3:1-4... That we are to be heavenly minded, full of the Holy Spirit, not just in belief but in thought and deed too. Spirit filled people think upon things of the Spirit, not just believe in some doctrine that says if you really ask Jesus for the Spirit He'll give it to you. Sure that is a part, but that is not the end of it. Being mindful of the Spirit and things of the Spirit is possible as I told another poster here because "we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor 2:16) The Corinthians were a carnal Church and yet Paul still tells them this, so surely even mere infants in Christ can be taught they need to be mindful of Christ. In fact, those are the ones we should be striving for the most with such teaching, because only by shifting our thoughts from our old nature to the new nature, reflecting on the change that has occured as a result of our belief in Christ can individuals walk with the Spirit. Those are Paul's words, not mine. I may have rehashed a bit, but I believe I kept the spirit of what he was saying.

Here is the emphasis of what I'm saying here to you dear brother:

Individuals who have put of the old nature and are living fully in the new do not need to shift their "paradigm" or thoughts to the Spirit because they already have. It is those who have to grow still that need this teaching.
 
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gideons300

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Here is the problem, at least as I see it. We are told to have our minds renewed AFTER we put off the old man for the old nature CANNOT have a true life-altering paradigm shift and "think better", LOL.

Until we are desperate to be freed from our old nature, and to leave forever the land of Romans 7, and hate our old life, and do not fight to save it but consider losing it a small price to pay for the joy of gaining His life in us, we simply cannot think as a new creature until we believe that we ARE.

Paul told us:

"Now are you children of light in the Lord. Walk as children of light."

Not that he did not tell us "Walk long enough and hard enough and diligently enough as light beings and eventually you will become one".

If we follow that path, as milions have mistakenly done, we find ourselves back to cleaning the outside of our cup as the starting point, and try to defeat our outer visible sins first, and then begin to move inward to our thoughts and finally to the intents of our hearts.

But such is not our amazing gospel, is it? We are told to get our inside clean first...by faith alone, believing that we ARE new, that our old man IS dead, and it is this inner cleansing of our hearts and natures that becomes our shield of faith to allow us to grow IN grace, not into it.

We have ended up wandering in the wilderness, falling to the same unbelief in the promises of God that they did. But it is a new day dawning and the church is being awakened to who we really are. It is our day to choose who we will serve, either ourselves or our God. It is time we lit our lamps and came back into agreement with our God.

Blessings,

Gideon


I really want to focus on the part I highlighted in red above...

Do we believe that we have changed or do we believe that Christ changed us? For Paul says that if any man is in Christ they are a new creation... nothing about that suggests (to me atleast) that we have to agree with that statement first before we can change. The change happens because the Holy Spirit comes upon us at conversion (Ephesians 1:13-14) That is not something we have to agree with to be a new creation, the new creation happens because we believe in Christ. I believe Paul's statements and dictation in Romans 6-7 are largely affected by his statements in Romans 8:5-8 and even Colossians 3:1-4... That we are to be heavenly minded, full of the Holy Spirit, not just in belief but in thought and deed too. Spirit filled people think upon things of the Spirit, not just believe in some doctrine that says if you really ask Jesus for the Spirit He'll give it to you. Sure that is a part, but that is not the end of it. Being mindful of the Spirit and things of the Spirit is possible as I told another poster here because "we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor 2:16) The Corinthians were a carnal Church and yet Paul still tells them this, so surely even mere infants in Christ can be taught they need to be mindful of Christ. In fact, those are the ones we should be striving for the most with such teaching, because only by shifting our thoughts from our old nature to the new nature, reflecting on the change that has occured as a result of our belief in Christ can individuals walk with the Spirit. Those are Paul's words, not mine. I may have rehashed a bit, but I believe I kept the spirit of what he was saying.

Here is the emphasis of what I'm saying here to you dear brother:

Individuals who have put of the old nature and are living fully in the new do not need to shift their "paradigm" or thoughts to the Spirit because they already have. It is those who have to grow still that need this teaching.

You bring up good discussion points. Let me see if I can explain.

God has ordained that the truths He has brought about to set us free....they ARE true. but there is a caveat... He wants us to believe them and it is according to our faith that we "put them on" and enjoy those truths.

Thus, we enter into our "good fight of faith" with the goal that we become "established" in the truths of our new nature. As we walk in faith, we are changed from glory to glory. As Christ dwells in our ours by faith, we overcome the world, the flesh and the devil...by that same faith. The more we believe, and the larger and more powerful our shield and sword become, the greater we walk in victory.

But even with the Holy Spirit within us, there are no "automatics", no slam dunks. It is always....always.... according to our faith be it unto us. And so what if we plainly do not believe the promises, just as the Israelites did not? Do we enter into the rest promised us? If we willingly or even unwillingly refuse to go into the land of promise and take that land....possess it, will it profit us?

No, brother, it will not. Even though we ARE new creatures, that truth may even be a witness against us, not for us, if we fail to see that we must BELIEVE the promises of God to enjoy walking in them. Let us consider what Hebrews tells us in chapter 4:

"Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also (the children of Israel); but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not mixed with faith in those who heard."


We have an active part in our salvation, yet it is NOT a work. It is cooperating with the Spirit of truth by believing and yielding to the God of all comfort to change us into who we really are, new creatures. Let none of us come short of what God is calling each of us to....becoming brand new creatures, full of the fruits of the Spirit, abiding all day, every day in the son of God. It is what we are destined for, but it must come from desiring it greatly. As Paul said....

"....if by ANY MEANS I might apprehend that for which I was apprehended."

Blessings,

Gideon
 
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ByTheSpirit

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You bring up good discussion points. Let me see if I can explain.

God has ordained that the truths He has brought about to set us free....they ARE true. but there is a caveat... He wants us to believe them and it is according to our faith that we "put them on" and enjoy those truths.

Thus, we enter into our "good fight of faith" with the goal that we become "established" in the truths of our new nature. As we walk in faith, we are changed from glory to glory. As Christ dwells in our ours by faith, we overcome the world, the flesh and the devil...by that same faith. The more we believe, and the larger and more powerful our shield and sword become, the greater we walk in victory.

But even with the Holy Spirit within us, there are no "automatics", no slam dunks. It is always....always.... according to our faith be it unto us. And so what if we plainly do not believe the promises, just as the Israelites did not? Do we enter into the rest promised us? If we willingly or even unwillingly refuse to go into the land of promise and take that land....possess it, will it profit us?

No, brother, it will not. Even though we ARE new creatures, that truth may even be a witness against us, not for us, if we fail to see that we must BELIEVE the promises of God to enjoy walking in them. Let us consider what Hebrews tells us in chapter 4:

"Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also (the children of Israel); but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not mixed with faith in those who heard."


We have an active part in our salvation, yet it is NOT a work. It is cooperating with the Spirit of truth by believing and yielding to the God of all comfort to change us into who we really are, new creatures. Let none of us come short of what God is calling each of us to....becoming brand new creatures, full of the fruits of the Spirit, abiding all day, every day in the son of God. It is what we are destined for, but it must come from desiring it greatly. As Paul said....

"....if by ANY MEANS I might apprehend that for which I was apprehended."

Blessings,

Gideon

I didn't think I called it "a work" and if it came across that way I apologize. I vehemently reject the idea of salvation or even sanctification by works. The ENTIRE walk with Christ is a miracle of grace that far exceeds any amount of comprehension we may ever achieve in this life. BUT there is an aspect that can not be denied. Otherwise Jesus would not have said, Deny yourself, take up your cross, abide in Me.... Those are all action words are they not? So I present to you, we should "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12) but not with the attitude of we are doing anything to improve our standing with God, instead the works come out of an attitude of thankfulness to the Father for what He has done for us, putting us in Christ and imputing His righteousness to us in Him. There is a vast degree of difference between the two. It's all a matter of the heart, but that is not for this discussion...

This discussion is about our frame of mind as it affects our walk with the Spirit. Of course we "walk by faith and not sight." (2 Cor 5:7) I never said we didn't... Let me use a familiar Bible story to illustrate...

Matthew 14:22-33
22 Immediately he made the disciples get into the boat and go before him to the other side, while he dismissed the crowds. 23 And after he had dismissed the crowds, he went up on the mountain by himself to pray. When evening came, he was there alone, 24 but the boat by this time was a long way from the land, beaten by the waves, for the wind was against them. 25 And in the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. 26 But when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, “It is a ghost!” and they cried out in fear. 27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Take heart; it is I. Do not be afraid.”

28 And Peter answered him, “Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water.” 29 He said, “Come.” So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out, “Lord, save me.” 31 Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?” 32 And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. 33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

We all know this story. But what does it have to do with our thoughts? Peter before he even tried to jump on the water rightfully ensured Christ was approving. What happened when he took his eyes off Christ? He sank like a rock (as Peter in the movie, "Apostle Peter and the Last Supper" says). Christ pulls him up to safety and immediately asks him why he had so little faith? I think this correlation to the object of our focus and our faith is paramount. When Peter focused himself on Christ, he walked on water in complete safety despite the storm and waves. When he feared and lacked faith and focused on the wind and waves and not Christ he sank and nearly died. When we take our focus off things of the Spirit, we live in righteousness, when we take our focus off the Spirit and onto ourselves we open the door for Satan to enter.

I'm not saying that keeping our thoughts trained on the Spirit will make us immune to temptation, but I am saying that if we focus on the Spirit we will overcome sin. It has to do with the two natures:

The old nature in the flesh is sin and death; the new nature in Christ is righteousness and life.

Surely you know this! And as I emphasized at the end of my last post, those who have overcome and reckoned themselves dead to sin and alive to Christ (Romans 6:11) have no need of this teaching if only as a refresher of sorts because they have already learned the lesson, even if unknowingly. Those who need most to hear that they must "renew their minds" (Romans 12:2) and think on things of the Spirit (Romans 8:5-6) and things from above (Colossians 3:1-2) are those whose walk in Christ has either just begun or is lacking.

Now to be sure, shifting our thoughts is not a magical thing that frees us from sin as I've already stated many times, rather it is a reality that must be done to experience true freedom in the Spirit, to walk with the Spirit and be fruitful in Christ (Galatians 5:16-25; John 15:1-12) But the object of our focus does significantly increase who we obey and the fruits of that, either the flesh and sin or the Spirit and righteousness...
 
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ByTheSpirit

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These are the very words of Paul (with English translation of course)

Romans 8:5-8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Everyone, how can that be misconstrued? It really is that plain!

Those who live by the flesh have their minds set on the flesh! Those in this condition can not please God and are hostile to Him!

Those who live by the Spirit have their minds set on the Spirit! Those in this condition have life and peace!

How is this an improper or wrong teaching? How can this be improved upon? I am simply re-emphasizing something I felt strongly the Lord wanted me to.

Colossians 3:1-3
3 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

This is possible for all who believe! We have the mind of Christ in us! That is a birth right of the Spirit! (1 Corinthians 2:16)

You must believe this! It really is that simple! Immerse yourself in the Spirit, in the heavenly, in the Father and Son! Be consumed with Him! It is that simple not because our minds accomplish it, but the focus of our thoughts does.
 
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Frogster

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I mean this as kindly as I can over the internet, what are you talking about?

"To try to get the spirit (soul) of man to behave like the Holy Spirit is not possible because the mind of man will never become the mind of Christ"

FACT CHECK... Uh oh!

For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:16

We had minds of flesh in the old nature but were transformed (hopefully) by the renewing of OUR MINDS (Romans 12:2) and now we have the mind of Christ when we are in that frame of mind (in the Spirit that is Romans 8:5-6 and Colossians 3:1-4)

The Holy Spirit is in us, but He doesn't take over and control us like we are mindless zombie freaks with no will or decision making ability... We have to obey and obedience comes from the heart yes but there is a major element of the mind as well... What's the greatest commandment as quoted from the Lord Himself?

Matthew 22:37

Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment.

Heart, soul, mind... If any one of those is lacking we are sinning. So can a mind focused on the old nature and flesh love God completely? NO because the two are against each other! (Romans 7, Romans 8:7) So take your mind off yourself, off your flesh and old nature. Think about things of the Spirit and you will walk with Him accordingly just as Paul said in Romans 8. I didn't say it, he did, I'm just reemphasizing it.

hmmmmm...but, it also says he writes on the heart, so that would mean he is the originator and sustainer of our inward parts. He imputes, he keeps us, to me it's all in the Him of it all.

2 Cor 1:21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us,

even with loving the bro's, he does that in us..:)


1 Thess 3:12 and may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all, as we do for you, 13 so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.

Same here, He does it all. He equips.


Heb 13:21 equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us[a] that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.


In other words, to me, reading the text, even the imperatives, must be read in grace, or else setting my mind on Him, can backfire and fail if it is all about me, but if it's the power of an endless life, Heb 7, it won't fail, that is why he is the forrunner that went behind the curtain, he opened that up, so again, to me it's all about perspective.
:)
 
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ByTheSpirit

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But I'm not saying it's about us... I'm saying the exact opposite of that...

Read my reply in #17... Those are the very words of scripture, no twisting or contorting or changing about it...

Paul said those who are in the flesh are mindful of the flesh and those who are in the Spirit are mindful of the Spirit...

When we focus on us, we fail... when we focus on Christ, our place in Christ, we succeed...
 
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But I'm not saying it's about us... I'm saying the exact opposite of that...

Read my reply in #17... Those are the very words of scripture, no twisting or contorting or changing about it...

Paul said those who are in the flesh are mindful of the flesh and those who are in the Spirit are mindful of the Spirit...

When we focus on us, we fail... when we focus on Christ, our place in Christ, we succeed...

well again, you put it all on you, when you said we focus...

so what happens if we don't focus, no growth?

se what I mean? if your focussing is the center, that is your will at the steering wheel.
 
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