A new CF, an old vision

[CaDan]

History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies the same defeats
Keep your finger on important issues
With crocodile tears and a pocketful of tissues

Elvis Costello ~ Beyond Belief

 

[Leanna]

Erwin,
I think you will quickly see that a consensus run site is harder to manage than you can imagine. Simple polls will lead to a tyranny of the majority and that is not good. You will find, as I have, that the business of trying to find consensus when the argument is even two sided is daunting but when four, five, or six viewpoints are presented it makes consensus next to impossible. This is the biggest problem you will face with the proposed changes. It will be hard to keep the site from being run by a tyranny of the majority whoever that may be at any given time. I will wait until the dust has settled a bit more and possibly make a suggestion that could help in that matter but I think that right now the static to noise ratio would drown it out.

I agree!

Contrary to what many think the open forums will work wonderfully. You are right about the church aspect on that. Anyone can walk into a church and the church doesn't hold special services where the public isn't welcome (at least no church that I have ever attended) but that is where the analogy to the church ends. For the naysayers on this: You are sorely mistaken. Never once are we told to hide ourselves and our conversations from the world. Paul went to people and spoke on their level. He invited debate. He quoted their pagan philosophers. He was out there getting dirty. If you are so scared of the world then the problem isn't CF becoming open it is your own fear and you need to address that issue.

I agree!

I, much like Bear, would like to see how an adherence to any creed chosen at any time makes one suitable to moderate a website. It just doesn't make sense. In the capacity Erwin describes the staff are not leaders but servants of the community. It is the way it should be. Those who seek to be first shall be last according to scripture and the placement of staff, by staff, as leaders, cops, police, anything but servants is very telling.

I agree!

I applaud the openness Erwin. I think that there will be a very chaotic time while the old guard, members and staff, try to bully their way back into the comfort zone but the dust will settle and CF will be a better place for it.

I have more thoughts but for now those should suffice.

And I look forward to hearing them.... I like you already!

 

[wmc1982]

One thing for sure the peacemakers would NOT rule.

If God doesn't want them to

 

[Leanna]

NO its three warning then its an infraction then once you get three in fractions you get a ban usally just for a month..... its not that bad

Oh huh. Well then I think warnings should stay, but the rules should change. The general "flaming" rule was used too often to delete very muted posts of expressed opinion. I've seen it done for years.

You guys should all shimmy over to Women's Discussion in the life stages.... open threads have been working there for months and months now....

 

[No Swansong]

Why would I do that JT?

You and I don't always agree but I appreciate your POV. Stay, old son, we need you here.

That part was meant as a joke my friend.

Sorry I'm a little punchy right now, stunned and in disbelief that staff could be summarily dismissed without even a thank you.

 

[thiefinthenight]

Brothers and Sisters....

I came to Christian Forums just a few short months ago. There are still many areas of CF that I haven't visited. There are many nuances I haven't explored and much I do not know or understand of the workings of CF. I do not write the following words from a heart that has any CF agenda.

I do write from a heart of grief.... I've spent about a half hour reading Erwin's original post as well as flipping through pages of the posts that have followed. There is no way to read through every one.

Today is my birthday. I have experienced an incredible outpouring of love from my brothers and sisters on this forum. If it had not been for what I've experienced here, I really wouldn't have had much of a birthday. It's been amazing. So, I flip over to see what Erwin has envisioned for CF and what I read is backbiting and jealousy and distrust and murmuring.... we are the Christians who are to be salt and light????? If I were an unbeliever who had stumbled onto this thread I would run for the hills based on the display of emotion one against another in a forum where we are to love one another. I would say we have proven atheistic skeptics correct in their assumptions we are no different than the world....shame on us!!!!

When I first read Erwin's post, I was skeptical as to whether a new "open" forum could possibly work. Not because I feel I need to be protected. But because I fear that just what has happened in this thread will continue and nonbelievers who come for the answers to their questions might be rebuffed and never come into a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Christ never intended for our churches, our houses of worship, our "Christian Forums" to be an escape route. If you're looking for peace and safety, Christianity isn't for you. We are to be a hospital for the sick. The last stop before someone spends an eternity in hell. And, as it pertains to believers, a place where we greet one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs as we live out our faith before a lost and dying world.

Erwin, I will continue in my support of CF. Brothers and Sisters, I love you and pray God will fill you with His conviction and a refreshed love one for another and for those He intends to bring to us for His purposes and glory!!!

AMEN!!!

You go girl!!!!!!!!!

 

[joyshirley]

Erwin,

First of all I want to thank you for the realization that CF needed drastic change. As you know this is my first post here in a long time and I am only posting because of the changes. I applaud the direction you are taking CF. I have some concerns though and I think that they valid. I know I will likely be shouted down by some who come from my side of the fence but that is not important right now.

I think you will quickly see that a consensus run site is harder to manage than you can imagine. Simple polls will lead to a tyranny of the majority and that is not good. You will find, as I have, that the business of trying to find consensus when the argument is even two sided is daunting but when four, five, or six viewpoints are presented it makes consensus next to impossible. This is the biggest problem you will face with the proposed changes. It will be hard to keep the site from being run by a tyranny of the majority whoever that may be at any given time. I will wait until the dust has settled a bit more and possibly make a suggestion that could help in that matter but I think that right now the static to noise ratio would drown it out.

Contrary to what many think the open forums will work wonderfully. You are right about the church aspect on that. Anyone can walk into a church and the church doesn't hold special services where the public isn't welcome (at least no church that I have ever attended) but that is where the analogy to the church ends. For the naysayers on this: You are sorely mistaken. Never once are we told to hide ourselves and our conversations from the world. Paul went to people and spoke on their level. He invited debate. He quoted their pagan philosophers. He was out there getting dirty. If you are so scared of the world then the problem isn't CF becoming open it is your own fear and you need to address that issue.

I, much like Bear, would like to see how an adherence to any creed chosen at any time makes one suitable to moderate a website. It just doesn't make sense. In the capacity Erwin describes the staff are not leaders but servants of the community. It is the way it should be. Those who seek to be first shall be last according to scripture and the placement of staff, by staff, as leaders, cops, police, anything but servants is very telling.

I applaud the openness Erwin. I think that there will be a very chaotic time while the old guard, members and staff, try to bully their way back into the comfort zone but the dust will settle and CF will be a better place for it.

I have more thoughts but for now those should suffice.

 

[sparklecat]

I think you will quickly see that a consensus run site is harder to manage than you can imagine. Simple polls will lead to a tyranny of the majority and that is not good. You will find, as I have, that the business of trying to find consensus when the argument is even two sided is daunting but when four, five, or six viewpoints are presented it makes consensus next to impossible. This is the biggest problem you will face with the proposed changes. It will be hard to keep the site from being run by a tyranny of the majority whoever that may be at any given time. I will wait until the dust has settled a bit more and possibly make a suggestion that could help in that matter but I think that right now the static to noise ratio would drown it out.

I'll actually agree with this. At UC, I think it was barely workable. Here, it would be absolute chaos. This site is simply too big unless it was implemented via a representation system.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

If God doesn't want them to

And God wanted Hitler in or just allow it b/c of human will?

 

[Leanna]

Sorry I'm a little punchy right now, stunned and in disbelief that staff could be summarily dismissed without even a thank you.

You are not dismissed!!

 

[synger]

I don't like this idea of voting on people to join staff... there are some pretty sick puppies on this forum, whose offenses are only known in private staff fora, and if they managed to finagle enough votes to get on staff, they could do so much damage. You would make those victims choose between being quietly stalked or openly humiliated.

My understanding from what Erwin posted earlier is that each forum will have its own wiki for rules discussion, and a forum where reports on posts in that forum will go (much like they currently go to a forum for the staff team that moderates that forum). So mods probably will still review reports and comment and stuff.. but it will be readable by anyone who cares. I think it will be just as hard for "sick puppies" who are reported numerous times to slip into the ranks of mods as it will be for "tyrannical mods" to keep their positions.

What will be interesting is confidentiality issues. Currently, anything pertaining to a report goes into the report thread as part of the record, including any PMs between posters and mods, since this can have an impact on actions and appeals. Will this continue when the report threads are public-access? Or if we're doing away with all punitive measures except for trolling and spamming (which "no more warnings" suggests to me), I'm not really sure what exactly a mod could DO when someone does report something.

Maybe the hope is that it will become almost like shunning. If it's a matter of public record who is being reported and for what, the peer pressure and shame of it may help people be more polite in their posts. I'm not sure if that's the goal, but I'm sure we'll hear more in the next few weeks about how he plans to work it out.

All in all, it should be an interesting summer at CF as we work this all out.

The idea would be that individual forums have membership that can form their own rules through a wiki/collaborative process. If the current congregational forum wants to ban debate, and if the members of that congregational forum vote to agree, then it is so. Why should a person from another section care? They can request and form their own forums for their own group. Moderation will be decentralised according to each forum/category - members that the forum members respect get voted to be their mods. Mods usually only have power to moderate their own forums. Reports go into forums that are subforums of these forums/categories. It's a massive restructure that I need to embark on.

The aim is to make this a true community where people have the power to ultimately moderate themselves.

 

[TheBear]

Shake it up, Erwin! That's exactly what this place needs.

 

[futuredoc]

Brothers and Sisters....

I came to Christian Forums just a few short months ago. There are still many areas of CF that I haven't visited. There are many nuances I haven't explored and much I do not know or understand of the workings of CF. I do not write the following words from a heart that has any CF agenda.

I do write from a heart of grief.... I've spent about a half hour reading Erwin's original post as well as flipping through pages of the posts that have followed. There is no way to read through every one.

Today is my birthday. I have experienced an incredible outpouring of love from my brothers and sisters on this forum. If it had not been for what I've experienced here, I really wouldn't have had much of a birthday. It's been amazing. So, I flip over to see what Erwin has envisioned for CF and what I read is backbiting and jealousy and distrust and murmuring.... we are the Christians who are to be salt and light????? If I were an unbeliever who had stumbled onto this thread I would run for the hills based on the display of emotion one against another in a forum where we are to love one another. I would say we have proven atheistic skeptics correct in their assumptions we are no different than the world....shame on us!!!!

When I first read Erwin's post, I was skeptical as to whether a new "open" forum could possibly work. Not because I feel I need to be protected. But because I fear that just what has happened in this thread will continue and nonbelievers who come for the answers to their questions might be rebuffed and never come into a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Christ never intended for our churches, our houses of worship, our "Christian Forums" to be an escape route. If you're looking for peace and safety, Christianity isn't for you. We are to be a hospital for the sick. The last stop before someone spends an eternity in hell. And, as it pertains to believers, a place where we greet one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs as we live out our faith before a lost and dying world.

Erwin, I will continue in my support of CF. Brothers and Sisters, I love you and pray God will fill you with His conviction and a refreshed love one for another and for those He intends to bring to us for His purposes and glory!!!

I would rep you a million times for this post if I could....it is people like you that keep me optomistic

 

[meant4worship]

That part was meant as a joke my friend.

Sorry I'm a little punchy right now, stunned and in disbelief that staff could be summarily dismissed without even a thank you.

Thankfully the work we do for Christ is not in vain and the reward you seek will be found when you lay your crown at His feet!!!

God bless you, Brother for the time and effort you have put into CF... don't let the enemy steal the jewel you've earned by filling you with offense at change. It wouldn't be worth the exchange.

 

[openup4christ]

You are not dismissed!!

Its hard to under stand what staff feels right now unless your on staff. We have work so hard to make this site as safe and comfortable for memebers.... some people have been modding for years, and most of us love to Mod. It feels like were getting thrown out in the cold. You know like a guy has been working for a big corporation for years sadly with out warning he is fired and all he gets is a cheap watch.. thats kinda how staff feels.

 

[Erwin]

Too many posts here to catch up now.

Stage 1 is to be honest intimately linked with Stage 2 as a lot of what is being proposed requires recoding.

I am looking at that issue now as we speak, hence the lack of progress. In the meantime, this is an opportunity for the community to digest the news.

 

[kiwimac]

That part was meant as a joke my friend.

Sorry I'm a little punchy right now, stunned and in disbelief that staff could be summarily dismissed without even a thank you.

Even I thank you! And you KNOW how difficult I am!

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Thankfully the work we do for Christ is not in vain and the reward you seek will be found when you lay your crown at His feet!!!

God bless you, Brother for the time and effort you have put into CF... don't let the enemy steal the jewel you've earned by filling you with offense at change. It wouldn't be worth the exchange.

obsolete talk

 

[No Swansong]

You are not dismissed!!

Actually that is precisely what happened.

I'm sure that it would be appreciated if we stuck around through the reform but I for one refuse to take part in a popularity contest in order to continue to serve a forum I have worked, sacrificed, prayed for and over, and shed tears for.

 

[Q]

Wow.... I'm utterly speechless!! THANK YOU ERWIN!! This is JUST what we need

2 questions though in regards to no hidden forums- what will happen with the now private staff forums, as well as reports? Will those all be open too?

I don't think it could ,but I can see a lot of editing happening starting from now,just in case.
I hope the lot will be deleted.

I'm not about to just make all the staff forums OPEN as of now because of all sorts of confidential information in it. I will close the current ones. New ones that are public will be made. Members can post in them.

Report forums will be public. Members can post in them and comment - why not.

The Wiki will be totally OPEN to all members to edit.

The idea is for more openness, not less.

Radical it may be, but it will work.

It will work,I am worried about a few other changes (I love them anyway),but this one will definitely work.

Ok, this answers my only question...happy I don't have to go do a ton of editing

God Bless you for this Erwin, it's a breath of fresh air and I truly think it's going to work well

LOL...

How about a freedom of information act, where we can look at all of those forums to see what was really going on?

I personaly don't think that would be wise,for may reasons,one of them,to protect the former staff,another reason,to protect members who were discussed and proded excesively..main reason,not to cause massive deconversion

Mods have always been pretty lenient. You had to do/say something pretty out of line to get points. A warning meant nothing, so no one should base that on anything, they were just reminders.

sure...if you come from a police state poliical prison,it may look that way

Well, I can vouch for one thing: I'll be leaving. I don't see these changes as being positive by any stretch of the imagination. I see this entirely as caving into the postmodern trends of society, and it really upsets me to see this happen to such a wonderful site.

Maybe you will try -people can surprise you,once you give them a chance.

I think that if CF is to be governed by members we should have a CF wide vote to see if we really want this change.

Counting on the members who play games ad don't care,and without thinking will nod in a Jesus poster direction?
Again,you may be in for a surprise

Erwin,

First of all I want to thank you for the realization that CF needed drastic change. As you know this is my first post here in a long time and I am only posting because of the changes. I applaud the direction you are taking CF. I have some concerns though and I think that they valid. I know I will likely be shouted down by some who come from my side of the fence but that is not important right now.

I think you will quickly see that a consensus run site is harder to manage than you can imagine. Simple polls will lead to a tyranny of the majority and that is not good. You will find, as I have, that the business of trying to find consensus when the argument is even two sided is daunting but when four, five, or six viewpoints are presented it makes consensus next to impossible. This is the biggest problem you will face with the proposed changes. It will be hard to keep the site from being run by a tyranny of the majority whoever that may be at any given time. I will wait until the dust has settled a bit more and possibly make a suggestion that could help in that matter but I think that right now the static to noise ratio would drown it out.

Contrary to what many think the open forums will work wonderfully. You are right about the church aspect on that. Anyone can walk into a church and the church doesn't hold special services where the public isn't welcome (at least no church that I have ever attended) but that is where the analogy to the church ends. For the naysayers on this: You are sorely mistaken. Never once are we told to hide ourselves and our conversations from the world. Paul went to people and spoke on their level. He invited debate. He quoted their pagan philosophers. He was out there getting dirty. If you are so scared of the world then the problem isn't CF becoming open it is your own fear and you need to address that issue.

I, much like Bear, would like to see how an adherence to any creed chosen at any time makes one suitable to moderate a website. It just doesn't make sense. In the capacity Erwin describes the staff are not leaders but servants of the community. It is the way it should be. Those who seek to be first shall be last according to scripture and the placement of staff, by staff, as leaders, cops, police, anything but servants is very telling.

I applaud the openness Erwin. I think that there will be a very chaotic time while the old guard, members and staff, try to bully their way back into the comfort zone but the dust will settle and CF will be a better place for it.

I have more thoughts but for now those should suffice.

good post

NO its three warning then its an infraction then once you get three in fractions you get a ban usally just for a month..... its not that bad

Is it any good?