A middle ages question.

[Fervent]

If you want an academic history then you'll need to find one for yourself.

I've read my share of academic histories, which is a major part of why I don't find the Roman claims of "Sacred Tradition" compelling. They just don't seem to line up with the actual events of history, and many of them are medeival developments(such as a lot of penance theology).

 

[Lukaris]

There have been people in most Christian confessions who have committed abuses. Probably the Amish, Quakers, Mennonites etc. are innocent

There were Orthodox pogroms against Jews in Russia, the English Protestants abused the Irish Catholics, the French Catholics abused the French Hugenots etc etc.

 

[Aaron112]

Who can we trust, if anyone?

In the Bible, when did the prophets, or the teachers, or the messengers of God (apostles),
learn and understand the truth ? (specifically not from man/men)

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

In the Bible, when did the prophets, or the teachers, or the messengers of God (apostles),
learn and understand the truth ? (specifically not from man/men)

who among us is a prophet?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I've read my share of academic histories, which is a major part of why I don't find the Roman claims of "Sacred Tradition" compelling. They just don't seem to line up with the actual events of history, and many of them are medeival developments(such as a lot of penance theology).

Were we discussing the line of popes?

 

[Fervent]

Were we discussing the line of popes?

the legitimacy of the Catholic magisterium depends on it, so yes indirectly.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

the legitimacy of the Catholic magisterium depends on it, so yes indirectly.

Well, as far as apostolic succession goes it is linked to the last of the attributes of the Church mentioned in the Creed; specifically, that the Church is apostolic.

IV. THE CHURCH IS APOSTOLIC​

​

857 The Church is apostolic because she is founded on the apostles, in three ways:
- she was and remains built on "the foundation of the Apostles,"362 The witnesses chosen and sent on mission by Christ himself;363
- with the help of the Spirit dwelling in her, the Church keeps and hands on the teaching,364 The "good deposit," the salutary words she has heard from the apostles;365
- she continues to be taught, sanctified, and guided by the apostles until Christ's return, through their successors in pastoral office: the college of bishops, "assisted by priests, in union with the successor of Peter, the Church's supreme pastor":366​

​

You are the eternal Shepherd​

​

who never leaves his flock untended.​

​

Through the apostles you watch over us and protect us always.​

​

You made them shepherds of the flock​

​

to share in the work of your Son....367​

...

The apostolate​

​

863 The whole Church is apostolic, in that she remains, through the successors of St. Peter and the other apostles, in communion of faith and life with her origin: and in that she is "sent out" into the whole world. All members of the Church share in this mission, though in various ways. "The Christian vocation is, of its nature, a vocation to the apostolate as well." Indeed, we call an apostolate "every activity of the Mystical Body" that aims "to spread the Kingdom of Christ over all the earth."377​

​

864 "Christ, sent by the Father, is the source of the Church's whole apostolate"; thus the fruitfulness of apostolate for ordained ministers as well as for lay people clearly depends on their vital union with Christ.378 In keeping with their vocations, the demands of the times and the various gifts of the Holy Spirit, the apostolate assumes the most varied forms. But charity, drawn from the Eucharist above all, is always "as it were, the soul of the whole apostolate."379​

​

865 The Church is ultimately one, holy, catholic, and apostolic in her deepest and ultimate identity, because it is in her that "the Kingdom of heaven," the "Reign of God,"380 already exists and will be fulfilled at the end of time. the kingdom has come in the person of Christ and grows mysteriously in the hearts of those incorporated into him, until its full eschatological manifestation. Then all those he has redeemed and made "holy and blameless before him in love,"381 will be gathered together as the one People of God, the
"Bride of the Lamb,"382 "the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God."383 For "the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."384​

So, as can be seen from these sections in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church has always depended on apostolic succession as fundamental to the meaning of the Church, just as she as always depended on Unity, Holiness, and Catholicity. Do you doubt these too?

In the liturgy of the Eucharist we are taught to pray

In communion with those whose memory we venerate,​

especially the glorious ever-Virgin Mary,​

Mother of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ,​

and blessed Joseph, her Spouse,​

your blessed Apostles and Martyrs,​

Peter and Paul, Andrew, [Apostles in Rome]​

(James, John,​

Thomas, James, Philip,​

Bartholomew, Matthew,​

Simon and Jude;​

Linus, Cletus, Clement, Sixtus, [the first popes in Rome after saint Peter.]​

Cornelius, Cyprian,​

Lawrence, Chrysogonus,​

John and Paul,​

Cosmas and Damian)​

and all your Saints;​

we ask that through their merits and prayers,​

in all things we may be defended​

by your protecting help.​

This is part of the Canon of the Mass, the most ancient part of the text of the mass, It has been suggested that the present Canon was a compromise between the older Greek Anaphoras and variable Latin Eucharistic prayers formerly used in Rome, and that it was ordered in the fourth century, possibly by Pope Damasus I (366–84).

So, it seems that the first several popes in the current list of popes goes back to the fourth century at least.

 

[Fervent]

Well, as far as apostolic succession goes it is linked to the last of the attributes of the Church mentioned in the Creed; specifically, that the Church is apostolic.

IV. THE CHURCH IS APOSTOLIC​

​

857 The Church is apostolic because she is founded on the apostles, in three ways:​

- she was and remains built on "the foundation of the Apostles,"362 The witnesses chosen and sent on mission by Christ himself;363​

- with the help of the Spirit dwelling in her, the Church keeps and hands on the teaching,364 The "good deposit," the salutary words she has heard from the apostles;365​

- she continues to be taught, sanctified, and guided by the apostles until Christ's return, through their successors in pastoral office: the college of bishops, "assisted by priests, in union with the successor of Peter, the Church's supreme pastor":366​

​

You are the eternal Shepherd​

​

who never leaves his flock untended.​

​

Through the apostles you watch over us and protect us always.​

​

You made them shepherds of the flock​

​

to share in the work of your Son....367​

...

The apostolate​

​

863 The whole Church is apostolic, in that she remains, through the successors of St. Peter and the other apostles, in communion of faith and life with her origin: and in that she is "sent out" into the whole world. All members of the Church share in this mission, though in various ways. "The Christian vocation is, of its nature, a vocation to the apostolate as well." Indeed, we call an apostolate "every activity of the Mystical Body" that aims "to spread the Kingdom of Christ over all the earth."377​

​

864 "Christ, sent by the Father, is the source of the Church's whole apostolate"; thus the fruitfulness of apostolate for ordained ministers as well as for lay people clearly depends on their vital union with Christ.378 In keeping with their vocations, the demands of the times and the various gifts of the Holy Spirit, the apostolate assumes the most varied forms. But charity, drawn from the Eucharist above all, is always "as it were, the soul of the whole apostolate."379​

​

865 The Church is ultimately one, holy, catholic, and apostolic in her deepest and ultimate identity, because it is in her that "the Kingdom of heaven," the "Reign of God,"380 already exists and will be fulfilled at the end of time. the kingdom has come in the person of Christ and grows mysteriously in the hearts of those incorporated into him, until its full eschatological manifestation. Then all those he has redeemed and made "holy and blameless before him in love,"381 will be gathered together as the one People of God, the​

"Bride of the Lamb,"382 "the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God."383 For "the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."384​

So, as can be seen from these sections in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church has always depended on apostolic succession as fundamental to the meaning of the Church, just as she as always depended on Unity, Holiness, and Catholicity. Do you doubt these too?

In the liturgy of the Eucharist we are taught to pray

In communion with those whose memory we venerate,​

especially the glorious ever-Virgin Mary,​

Mother of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ,​

and blessed Joseph, her Spouse,​

your blessed Apostles and Martyrs,​

Peter and Paul, Andrew, [Apostles in Rome]​

(James, John,​

Thomas, James, Philip,​

Bartholomew, Matthew,​

Simon and Jude;​

Linus, Cletus, Clement, Sixtus, [the first popes in Rome after saint Peter.]​

Cornelius, Cyprian,​

Lawrence, Chrysogonus,​

John and Paul,​

Cosmas and Damian)​

and all your Saints;​

we ask that through their merits and prayers,​

in all things we may be defended​

by your protecting help.​

This is part of the Canon of the Mass, the most ancient part of the text of the mass, It has been suggested that the present Canon was a compromise between the older Greek Anaphoras and variable Latin Eucharistic prayers formerly used in Rome, and that it was ordered in the fourth century, possibly by Pope Damasus I (366–84).

So, it seems that the first several popes in the current list of popes goes back to the fourth century at least.A

This is question begging, though, since it depends on the authority of statements from the Catholic church to support the authority of the Catholic church. And such statements are late arising, and not in keeping with the available historical evidence which seems to indicate things like the single bishop and the idea of a succession of bishops are developments rather than being original to the nascent church. Which if the claim of apostolic succession via office is not true, which appears to be the case, then the entire basis of the authority of the Roman church vanishes.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

This is question begging, though, since it depends on the authority of statements from the Catholic church to support the authority of the Catholic church.

Well, doesn't that apply to any question regarding authority in religion? One depends on holy scripture for claims about the authority of holy scripture.

And such statements are late arising, and not in keeping with the available historical evidence

Isn't this also true of 'sola scriptura', it arose in the 16th century, apostolic succession arose at least 1,000 year earlier.

 

[Fervent]

Well, doesn't that apply to any question regarding authority in religion? One depends on holy scripture for claims about the authority of holy scripture.

Isn't this also true of 'sola scriptura', it arose in the 16th century, apostolic succession arose at least 1,000 year earlier.

Not necessarily, no. Scripture's authority doesn't necessarily come from Scripture but from it's basis as apostolic witness. The problem with what you posted is that what we are discussing is whether or not the "apostolic succession" is actually true or not, especially with regard to Rome. Ini the Bible the word for elder and the word for bishop or overseer were used interchangeably, and early sources like Clement and Hermas seem to imply a college of elders as the leadership in Rome. The earliest source for a monarchical bishop is Ignatius, but it seems to be something he is arguing should take place rather than something that is in place. So while the Roman Catholic church claims an apostolic succession of monarchical bishops, the earliest sources don't seem to support the existence of such a thing.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

from it's basis as apostolic witness

Yeah, in apostolic succession.

 

[Fervent]

Yeah, in apostolic succession.

There need not be apostolic succession for there to exist an authoritative apostolic tradition, nor do we need to depend on such a claim since we have primary documents from the canonization process that authenticate their historic use.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

There need not be apostolic succession for there to exist an authoritative apostolic tradition

But for me there is apostolic succession and that is how I receive the faith of the gospel and of the Lord, Jesus Christ. I speak for myself in this. Others can speak for themselves.

 

[Fervent]

But for me there is apostolic succession and that is how I receive the faith of the gospel and of the Lord, Jesus Christ. I speak for myself in this. Others can speak for themselves.

I'm don't think it works like that, and I haven't seen compelling evidence that claims of apostolic succession as the Roman and Orthodox churches understand it happened. There's simply too many reasons to think that the triparite structure of bishop-presbyter-deacon is a development of the 2nd century rather than being a feature of the original church, and if that's true then the claim of a succession of bishops can't be true.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I'm don't think it works like that, and I haven't seen compelling evidence that claims of apostolic succession as the Roman and Orthodox churches understand it happened. There's simply too many reasons to think that the triparite structure of bishop-presbyter-deacon is a development of the 2nd century rather than being a feature of the original church, and if that's true then the claim of a succession of bishops can't be true.

I am attempting to disengage from this conversation with you.

 

[Fervent]

I am attempting to disengage from this conversation with you.

May it be well with your soul.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

May it be well with your soul.

No ill feelings, but the topic of the conversation between us on this specific matter of apostolic succession and Catholic Church authority seems to be exhausted. I want to make that clear, I intend no personal reflections upon you.

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

I'm don't think it works like that, and I haven't seen compelling evidence that claims of apostolic succession as the Roman and Orthodox churches understand it happened. There's simply too many reasons to think that the triparite structure of bishop-presbyter-deacon is a development of the 2nd century rather than being a feature of the original church, and if that's true then the claim of a succession of bishops can't be true.

is there a difference between Eastern Orthodox vs ACNA apostolic succession?

 

[Fervent]

is there a difference between Eastern Orthodox vs ACNA apostolic succession?

From what I can tell, there's a significant difference in that the EO view the succession as without error in an unbroken line of bishops within the apostolic churches, while the ACNA recognizes that the succession of bishops has erred in places requiring correction from outside of the episcopate. Though as I am neither Orthodox or ACNA you'd probably be better served asking one of their members for the finer points of difference and similarity.

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

From what I can tell, there's a significant difference in that the EO view the succession as without error in an unbroken line of bishops within the apostolic churches, while the ACNA recognizes that the succession of bishops has erred in places requiring correction from outside of the episcopate. Though as I am neither Orthodox or ACNA you'd probably be better served asking one of their members for the finer points of difference and similarity.

thanks