A man achieved Sinless Perfection!

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Doesn't attacking Christians hamper the spredding The Gospel?

I didn't see your 'context' for this.
However, in the Bible, and in history,
when true christians are attacked, it results in more people being saved,
and more christians BEING saved themselves.

 

[Grafted In]

I didn't see your 'context' for this.


It was a responce to "why does the devil attack Christian.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Thanks.

 

[Grafted In]

You be welcome

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

God made me do it.

 

[Grafted In]

Our sanctification is about being made to be more like Christ in following his perfect example of doing what God has revealed in his law as holy, righteous, and good, and avoiding what God has revealed as sin. When he who began a good work in us is faithful to complete in on the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6), we will be made completely sinless, so it is a life-long process that won't be completed until then. As we continue to grow in our love for God, we will also continue to grow in our hatred of what He has revealed as sin, which will lead us to sin less and eventually to be made sinless.

If you are trying to prove that man can become perfect in these mortal bodies you picked the perfect portion of Scripture to prove yourself wrong.
Read it again carefully:

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Scripture is saying we may strive for perfection...total sinlessness, but did you catch the last few words?
Until the day of Jesus Christ.....when we will take on imortaltity and incorrupt, when we are changed whe He comes for His bride. Not before. XYZ

 

[Soyeong]

If you are trying to prove that man can become perfect in these mortal bodies you picked the perfect portion of Scripture to prove yourself wrong.
Read it again carefully:

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Scripture is saying we may strive for perfection...total sinlessness, but did you catch the last few words?
Until the day of Jesus Christ.....when we will take on imortaltity and incorrupt, when we are changed whe He comes for His bride. Not before. XYZ

I didn't say that we could become perfect in these mortal bodies, but that we are on a journey towards perfection that won't be complete until the day of Christ.

 

[Grafted In]

I didn't say that we could become perfect in these mortal bodies, but that we are on a journey towards perfection that won't be complete until the day of Christ.

Ok, wrong poster. I'm having a hard time distinquishing who is for/against what.
i mistook you for the hardline "I have achieved sinlessness". My appologies,

 

[Grafted In]

I didn't see your 'context' for this.
However, in the Bible, and in history,
when true christians are attacked, it results in more people being saved,
and more christians BEING saved themselves.

Yes, I don't think satan understands the cross.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes, I don't think satan understands the cross.

Correct. That's what God says in the Bible. If satan understood, he would not have crucified the Messiah Jesus. Satan wanted to STOP GOD, not to help Him.

Likewise, if believers and unbelievers, basically anyone / everyone in the whole world,
understood the cross (with all God's Plan of Redemption and Salvation for men),
then
they wouldn't attack anyone else, ever.
As it is, as Jesus was and is attacked,
so also are all those who follow Jesus today being attacked,
as God said would happen.

 

[Grafted In]

Correct. That's what God says in the Bible. If satan understood, he would not have crucified the Messiah Jesus. Satan wanted to STOP GOD, not to help Him.



Likewise, if believers and unbelievers, basically anyone / everyone in the whole world,
understood the cross (with all God's Plan of Redemption and Salvation for men),
then
they wouldn't attack anyone else, ever.
As it is, as Jesus was and is attacked,
so also are all those who follow Jesus today being attacked,
as God said would happen.

I'll give you a "like" on that one.

 

[Near]

Stopping sinning altogether for any given period of time would be an interesting experiment to say the least. How bout you, OP? a week? month? you up for it?

That's the goal. I don't know if I will end up doing that with certainty, but it's a good goal, and the bar should be set high, which is til death. Intent has to be there too.

But people who have stopped sinning probably aren't going to acknowledge it.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. They could just be humble about it. It's only another's perception that judges the claim, "hey guys, I don't sin", as unacceptable. There is a type of sin police going around saying, "yes you, do you're dirty, just like the rest of us".

Near, are you living in total sinlessness?

Well, it's a question that requires more than a yes or no. What do you think it means to do that?
Context is everything. I've sinned in the recent past, and I regret my sins, and try not to commit sin.
According to my belief, when I repent of a sin, it's as if I'm asserting that I'll stop doing that specific sin. I've failed many times, but if I don't have it in me to turn towards Christ, and say I'll follow him, I can't call that repentance. So, the goal is to live sinless from the point of repentance, even though there may be stumbling during the course of a christian's life several several times. The hope is to die in Christ, without guile in the heart, without the will to commit sin, no plotting or scheming to sin, no wicked intents, but rather the intent to follow Christ.

Near, if you are quoting me you have taken my words out of context and you know it

It only looks that way because that's how I'm interpreting your view. I take it that you're a protestant, who believes in some form of OSAS? You're free to correct me where I'm wrong pertaining to interpreting your words. I don't read minds. Words can be taken to mean one thing or another, phrases tend to be vague, or subject to different interpretations especially across different denominations.

 

[Grafted In]

You sin= loss of salvation. You repent= get back your salvation. And so forth on and on.
i understand from your words that if you sin just prior to death, having not repented again that you will go to hell, am I correct?

This discussion has become tiresome.

 

[Kenny'sID]

i understand from your words that if you sin just prior to death, having not repented again that you will go to hell, am I correct?

You didn't ask me but, if I may...I doubt that is necessarily the case, at least with a single slip up. On the other hand, if one chooses to life a lifestyle of general or a particular sin, and is doing that when they die or the lord returns, that is very likely a different story. We need to stop those things, get forgiveness and get back on the right path.

Then there is the "who really knows" side of that. Take the man/woman that was a saint most of their life and just happens to have a weak time in their life just before their demise and doesn't get back to God in time. Not something I would chance with the expectation I'd get away with it but with a fair and just God, who's to say he won't make that or other acceptations, all depending on circumstance.

Best to take no chances, and watch therefore.....

 

[Near]

You sin= loss of salvation. You repent= get back your salvation. And so forth on and on.
i understand from your words that if you sin just prior to death, having not repented again that you will go to hell, am I correct?
This discussion has become tiresome.

Matthew 5:22“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell

If I murder, or even hate a brother, without repentance, prior to death without repenting then yes, I would go to hell.

1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that eternal life does not reside in a murderer.

This isn't what some think of as works-salvation, since it's God who decides on whether he wants to grant us repentance, and mercy.

Romans 9:
15For He says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

I also want to add, it's not ideal to live in a constant pattern of sinning followed by repentance, for the same specific sins, over and over again through out the life of a christian. What's preferred is one time of repentance, followed by never going back to a certain sin. For example, if a man is an adulterer, he may repent, but what if he keeps going back to the other woman? What does that say about him, and how long would God tolerate that? God knows.

You didn't ask me but, if I may...I doubt that is necessarily the case, at least with a single slip up. On the other hand, if one chooses to life a lifestyle of general or a particular sin, and is doing that when they die or the lord returns, that is very likely a different story. We need to stop those things, get forgiveness and get back on the right path.

Then there is the "who really knows" side of that. Take the man/woman that was a saint most of their life and just happens to have a weak time in their life just before their demise and doesn't get back to God in time. Not something I would chance with the expectation I'd get away with it but with a fair and just God, who's to say he won't make that or other acceptations, all depending on circumstance.

Best to take no chances, and watch therefore.....

I don't think we have to worry too much when it comes to one slip up. Perhaps I'm wrong, and this is just what I feel is true. It seems that God would have mercy on such a person, and grant them time to repent and continue to live righteously before they die. I don't think he would let the saints who've been practicing righteous living for decades commit an act of adultery out of the blue prior to death. So either I'd say that the scenario you described wouldn't happen, or God would not forgive such a person. What comes to mind is the account of Ananias and Sapphira. God basically killed them right after they lied. I don't feel confident in saying they went to heaven. However, one could also argue they were false-brethren, not really saved to begin with.

What surprises me is Matthew 5:22, which I quoted above. It describes that calling a brother a fool, perhaps out of hate, will put us in danger of hellfire. I think that's an accurate way to rephrase, "loss of salvation", because it doesn't seem quite right to say anyone has lost their salvation because salvation isn't an object, it's an act or process.
So to better address Grafted In, sin=being put in danger of hellfire, and repentance=being secured in Christ.

Taking that into consideration, it seems like we're expected to try to live without sinning from the time we repent. If sin is such a danger, something to be avoided, something that God himself wants us to stay away from, surely we would be able to do so, and live without sin.

 

[Grafted In]

You didn't ask me but, if I may...I doubt that is necessarily the case, at least with a single slip up. On the other hand, if one chooses to life a lifestyle of general or a particular sin, and is doing that when they die or the lord returns, that is very likely a different story. We need to stop those things, get forgiveness and get back on the right path.

Then there is the "who really knows" side of that. Take the man/woman that was a saint most of their life and just happens to have a weak time in their life just before their demise and doesn't get back to God in time. Not something I would chance with the expectation I'd get away with it but with a fair and just God, who's to say he won't make that or other acceptations, all depending on circumstance.

Best to take no chances, and watch therefore.....

I agree with you that we shouldn't take any chances, but, if I may, I am fairly convinced that a person who gets save....really saved, their sin simply means no rewards in Heaven. It is my understanding that no matter what, if we have The Holy Ghost dwelling in us Jesus will make us perfect at the rapture.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I agree with you that we shouldn't take any chances, but, if I may, I am fairly convinced that a person who gets save....really saved, their sin simply means no rewards in Heaven. It is my understanding that no matter what, if we have The Holy Ghost dwelling in us Jesus will make us perfect at the rapture.

I'm on the opposing side of that, but we won't hash it out here, especially since it's been done to death already.

 

[Near]

I'm on the opposing side of that, but we won't hash it out here, especially since it's been done to death already.

Yeah, and a few of the things mentioned are going off topic on the thread.
I'm trying to tie things back in with the original post, but I can only write so much about it, trying to do that...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm trying to tie things back in with the original post, but I can only write so much about it, trying to do that...

Good. For instance, was anyone called blameless, holy , set apart,
what was said (especially by Jesus and King David) about men whose sin was forgiven (men right away on earth, not by and by some day),
and ultimately, on earth, in the assembly,
how many believers/ ekklesia LIVED IN UNION WITH MESSIAH (day after day after day, all the time),
in answer to the Savior's prayer to the Creator in heaven that we (ekklesia) all be one exactly as He and the Sovereign Creator are one, so we ARE ....
i.e.
IN the NT , (OT also), there are MANY examples of men (examples of women too)
living holy lives, expected to live holy lives,
told to live holy lives. (by God no less).
So, if no one except Jesus is perfectly sinless, so what ? What difference does it make ?

 

[Near]

Good. For instance, was anyone called blameless, holy , set apart,
what was said (especially by Jesus and King David) about men whose sin was forgiven (men right away on earth, not by and by some day),
and ultimately, on earth, in the assembly,
how many believers/ ekklesia LIVED IN UNION WITH MESSIAH (day after day after day, all the time),
in answer to the Savior's prayer to the Creator in heaven that we (ekklesia) all be one exactly as He and the Sovereign Creator are one, so we ARE ....
i.e.
IN the NT , (OT also), there are MANY examples of men (examples of women too)
living holy lives, expected to live holy lives,
told to live holy lives. (by God no less).
So, if no one except Jesus is perfectly sinless, so what ? What difference does it make ?

Here's a real example of such people in the NT:

Luke 1:5In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

So, it looks like they were doing quite well.