A man achieved Sinless Perfection!

[Grafted In]

I only offered a possible elaboration, and questioned if that's what you actually believe, you're free to clarify.
I've only done that because your statements contain phrases that are vague and can be interpreted one way or another, so it's hard to understand precisely what you're writing about.
Vagueness can turn one thing into something else.

Nothing vague about my last post. You claim to have achieved sinlessness.
I call that self rightiousness because you simply cannot achieve total sinlessness in your mortal body.

Is that clear enough?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Also, this is a real question:
Should we look down on those who are self-righteous?

Jesus did not look down on them. He cursed them with "Woe is you" and
told the disciples to beware their hypocrisy.

 

[Near]

Nothing vague about my last post. You claim to have achieved sinlessness.
I call that self rightiousness because you simply cannot achieve total sinlessness in your mortal body.

Is that clear enough?

Well, you've stated what you believe, but your statements lack substance. There's no reason given so far to actually think a person can't become sinless. I was expecting something that follows a pattern of "X means Y because of Z" ,

When you disagree with someone's position, you should post evidence and supporting statements for your position. This policy, sometimes referred to as "X means Y because of Z", must be followed especially when posting claims that are widely considered to be controversial.

Secondly, you said that it's self righteous to try to become sinless. Where in the bible does it say that trying to abstain from sins(adultery, theft, lying) is a self-righteous act?

I thought you said self-righteousness was when a person denied that God played a part in making them righteous.
I've already explained that I don't deny God as being active throughout all of sanctification. So you're point is irrelevant.
Now you're adding on that something is self-righteous because it simply can't be done.
I can't fly like Superman, but if I tried, that wouldn't make it a self-righteous act.

The thread is not about whether trying to become sinless is self-righteous, it's about whether abstaining from sin, in totality, is possible. So, for the reasons I've explained, whether or not something is self-righteous is completely irrelevant.

Jesus did not look down on them. He cursed them with "Woe is you" and
told the disciples to beware their hypocrisy.

Well, the Pharisees regarded themselves a righteous, but it was really a false righteousness because they were just religious on the outside, and impure on the inside. Grafted In makes the point that it's self-righteous to try to become righteous with human effort, ie. it's self-righteous to try to stop using cocaine. He seems to say that if it's done with human effort, it's done without God. It's a strange type of monergism in which only the man works.

 

[Grafted In]

We went all through this 2 or 3 years ago. At that time you declared me to be unsaved because I had sinned after getting saved. My responce to that is the same today as it was then: man cannot achieve sinlessness in this world. I see no need to rehash it.

 

[Near]

We went all through this 2 or 3 years ago. At that time you declared me to be unsaved because I had sinned after getting saved. My responce to that is the same today as it was then: man cannot achieve sinlessness in this world. I see no need to rehash it.

I don't remember what I said to you 2 or 3 years ago. That was when I was 19, or 20. I've also changed a lot, and have reformulated what I believe. You are mistaken assuming I believe exactly as I had before.
Thank you for sharing your view among many other views;
let's agree to disagree.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Try not to sin for a month? sure, why not. I cans see that as possible...like anything else, practice makes perfect.

Self righteous? Absolutely not...how can it be anything but righteous to go to the extremes to attempt to further fix Gods major complaint with us? Sure, Jesus saves us from the sin we still do but repentance, doing the best we can to stop sinning is a big part of being saved, so just doesn't make sense it would and I honestly don't get how "not sinning" to whatever degree could possibly be wrong, actually it's quite the contrary. If someone is self righteous they are self righteous but trying not to sin far from makes them that.

Can a person not sin to one degree or another on their own, or without God/Christ? of course they can, even if they don't believe in God at all. It's merely a choice to do wrong or not. Most people don't kill others, Christian or not, and that is them not sinning by choice for whatever the reason...simple..happens all the time.

God/Jesus not only sees to it Christians are forgiven sin but other than that, they give us reason, reason not to sin, reason beyond just keeping an order to the world to make it just livable (obeying our laws) so we choose to make that attempt because we simply want Gods blessing/the perks and because we appreciate/love him and choose to give him all the credit for our even being here in the first place, not to mention eternal life.

Stopping sinning altogether for any given period of time would be an interesting experiment to say the least. How bout you, OP? a week? month? you up for it?

 

[Gabriel Anton]

21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

It can be done. The trick is How.

 

[Greg J.]

Striving to live in total sinlessness is selfrightiousness.

Self-righteousness is a heart condition. As such, striving to live in total sinlessness (actions) need not be self-righteous. The call to personal holiness is basically this, except you are not wrong about people for whom it has become an idolotry (or even worse, strive to get others to stop sinning, which is usually a mess of sins).

...
6. We can overcome any sin.

This is revealed as true in many passages. People often look for ways to understand them that doesn't mean they have to acknowledge that they don't know of anyone who has stopped sinning. But people who have stopped sinning probably aren't going to acknowledge it. They realize that they only are not sinning by the grace of God. They know that they may sin if God allows it for some reason (such as a way to turn aside growing self-righteousness ).

God certainly grants people to stop intentionally sinning in this life. The idea of doing it without a conscious knowledge of his help is the only thing that might be examined.

We can't be free from being sin-tainted in this life, since we have a sinful nature.

Interestingly, if we don't know something we did was a sin, God doesn't count it as a sin, but the consequences (the wages of sin) still come upon us. (Romans 5:13-14)

 

[Grafted In]

I'm with you to a point. The result of sin in this life is most likely going to take away God's best from, but man cannot achieve sinlessness in this life.
if you think otherwise, read Phelipians 3:9.

Sinless perfection is not something one can achieve in these earthen vessels. To say otherwise comes from man's ego.
Near, are you living in total sinlessness?

 

[Grafted In]

GregJ, are you living in total sinlessness?

 

[Soyeong]

Christendom agrees and holds it to be true that Christ was and is sinless.
He came in the form of a man, and lived a sinless life.

However, as for the rest of us, can we ever become sinless too?

By that I mean, from a certain point in life, is it possible to abstain from sin for a decent amount of time. Let's say, a month, but we can say any long period of time for the sake of discussion.

(Not even "small" sins. Some mention, gossip, jealously over a car, etc.)

So, do you think it's possible, and if so, how can one become sinless for a month or more?

If you don't think it's possible, please explain why.

Edit:
Perhaps I should add this in a signature, but I'll just say,
be warned, I like to pick apart claims, and find out exactly what a person is saying. I also like to challenge claims, so if I challenge one of your claims, don't be too surprised.

Our sanctification is about being made to be more like Christ in following his perfect example of doing what God has revealed in his law as holy, righteous, and good, and avoiding what God has revealed as sin. When he who began a good work in us is faithful to complete in on the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6), we will be made completely sinless, so it is a life-long process that won't be completed until then. As we continue to grow in our love for God, we will also continue to grow in our hatred of what He has revealed as sin, which will lead us to sin less and eventually to be made sinless.

 

[Soyeong]

Striving to live in total sinlessness is selfrightiousness.
We are not called to serve the law but to good works as God reveals to us. If we do the thing He places in our heart to do ( and it is He who gives us the desire to do that which He lays on our hearts) we are storing up treasures in heaven.

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. Philippians 3:9

The difference between God's righteousness and self-righteousness isn't in a particular action, but in who gets the glory for the action. So if someone is trying to become righteous by doing what the law says is righteous, then it is self-righteousness, but if someone seeks to do what the law says is righteous because God has made them righteous and they seek to demonstrate their love for God by obeying His commands and to demonstrate their faith in Him by depending on His commands for how they should live rightly in a way that pleases Him, then it is not self-righteousness. God's law equips us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16), or in other words, it is the good works that God has revealed to us.

 

[Grafted In]

You, me and everyone else who believes on Christ will, indeed, achieve sinlessness......when we are changed from mortality to imortaltity. When we are changed fron corrupt to incorruptible.

 

[Grafted In]

Whether or not a person overcomes sin through human strength is irrelevant.
It seems very odd to me that anyone who is a Christian would deny that God played a part in helping a man to overcome sin. What Christian has ever said, "I overcame sin, no thanks to God". It strikes me as odd that anyone who's not joking would suggest that they believe such. Only an unbeliever would suggest that. I am no unbeliever, and for the thread, we are not talking about non-Christians overcoming sin, but instead Christians overcoming sin.

Secondly, if a person overcomes sin through human strength, that does not negate the fact that God would play a role in the process. In fact, it necessarily implies that God has actively worked in that persons life, and the righteous behavior that is attained by a Christian, is due to God having worked on man to guide him. So can we can dismiss any notion of a christian who says that God plays no role in sanctification?

As for the works of flesh, what you and I think about these two things seem to be very different.
It seems that you believe the works of the flesh are described as trying to overcome sin through human effort.
What had lead you to believe that?

I believe the works of the flesh are sin. Think about it, what is sin like? All sin is derived for the most part from the lust of the flesh, and that includes adultery, gluttony, homosexual acts, theft, and so on.
In fact, Paul describes the works of the flesh.

Galatians 5


His mentions in Romans, in regards to the works of the flesh, should be interpreted in light of the above passage.
There is nothing wrong with a believer, attempting to overcome an addiction through his own effort. Or should we shame those who attempt to stop their own sins, and label them as "self-righteous" people who are to be looked down on?


I've described the way I interpret that verse, and that deals with the Torah. If we're both talking about different things, iot seems that we're talking past each other, on entirely different paradigms.
From what I understand, you believe Christ's righteous is like a status, and that is put into your account, and it's as if God views you as righteous, and that is true even if you had continued in the addiction? Am I understanding you correctly?


So it seems to me what you're saying is Jesus, once we believe in him, we no longer have to fight temptation. It seems to me that you describe your own experience as such. But I ask, have you sinned since being saved? I have, and I believe it's my responsibility tasked by God to continue to try with my human effort to battle daily against sin.
I have never had the experience you've had in which all your desires for sin somehow without practice and diligence just vanish in a split second and remain that way for decades. I've had to deal with sin many times, and I've found myself in repentance, with despair and self-loathing as a Christian because of the sins I've committed.
Tell me, as a Christian should I expect God just to somehow make me stop desiring the things which I've struggled with; the things of sin? If so, why hasn't he taken away my heterosexuality, and made a desire no woman. Why hasn't he made me void of sin? Does it please him to see me try to fight sin, while he has taken away your sin without any effort on your part. I've asked God to simply take away temptation from me, and to make me stop sinning. I've done that multiple times, and later on I had fallen due to temptation and a lack of diligence. If I should be expecting the experience of the Christian life like you, who's behavior is transformed effortlessly, perhaps God is not in my life at all since I have been having to try to resist sin with failures at times.

Near, if you are quoting me you have taken my words out of context and you know it

 

[Soyeong]

This would be worth pondering about.

Sin causes death.

Christian believes he is saved.

Christian sins.

If Christian is saved, what is the point of the devil using his power to get the Christian to sin? Makes no sense whatsoever unless the devil believes that getting the Christian to sin can destroy the Christian.

Sin is lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so the issue is that our salvation from sin takes the form of being saved from the penalty of our lawless actions and from doing what what is lawless. Everything that grace brings here is part of what our salvation looks like:

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

 

[Greg J.]

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. A student once asked a seminary professor if it was possible to stop sinning in this life. He hesitated, but said "yes." When I was a newish Christian I used to think this was impossible, not only for me, but also for others, but I failed to consider that (1) man can do nothing apart from the Lord, including draw a breath, and (2) with God all things are possible. As I said, God does grant people to stop intentionally sinning in this life. If you take this as a challenge to try harder, you will fail, and are missing the point I am making (which requires faith in God).

 

[Grafted In]

Doesn't attacking Christians hamper the spredding The Gospel?
Why, then, would the father of lies not attack Christiand?

 

[Grafted In]

Then what is your point?

 

[Grafted In]

GregJ, your flesh will war against The Holy Spirit until you breath your last breath.

 

[Grafted In]

Gabriel Anton, it appears that you have blocked pms. Will.you allow me to pm you one time?