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I only offered a possible elaboration, and questioned if that's what you actually believe, you're free to clarify.
I've only done that because your statements contain phrases that are vague and can be interpreted one way or another, so it's hard to understand precisely what you're writing about.
Vagueness can turn one thing into something else.
Also, this is a real question:
Should we look down on those who are self-righteous?
Well, you've stated what you believe, but your statements lack substance. There's no reason given so far to actually think a person can't become sinless. I was expecting something that follows a pattern of "X means Y because of Z" ,Nothing vague about my last post. You claim to have achieved sinlessness.
I call that self rightiousness because you simply cannot achieve total sinlessness in your mortal body.
Is that clear enough?
When you disagree with someone's position, you should post evidence and supporting statements for your position. This policy, sometimes referred to as "X means Y because of Z", must be followed especially when posting claims that are widely considered to be controversial.
Well, the Pharisees regarded themselves a righteous, but it was really a false righteousness because they were just religious on the outside, and impure on the inside. Grafted In makes the point that it's self-righteous to try to become righteous with human effort, ie. it's self-righteous to try to stop using cocaine. He seems to say that if it's done with human effort, it's done without God. It's a strange type of monergism in which only the man works.Jesus did not look down on them. He cursed them with "Woe is you" and
told the disciples to beware their hypocrisy.
I don't remember what I said to you 2 or 3 years ago. That was when I was 19, or 20. I've also changed a lot, and have reformulated what I believe. You are mistaken assuming I believe exactly as I had before.We went all through this 2 or 3 years ago. At that time you declared me to be unsaved because I had sinned after getting saved. My responce to that is the same today as it was then: man cannot achieve sinlessness in this world. I see no need to rehash it.
Self-righteousness is a heart condition. As such, striving to live in total sinlessness (actions) need not be self-righteous. The call to personal holiness is basically this, except you are not wrong about people for whom it has become an idolotry (or even worse, strive to get others to stop sinning, which is usually a mess of sins).Striving to live in total sinlessness is selfrightiousness.
This is revealed as true in many passages. People often look for ways to understand them that doesn't mean they have to acknowledge that they don't know of anyone who has stopped sinning. But people who have stopped sinning probably aren't going to acknowledge it. They realize that they only are not sinning by the grace of God. They know that they may sin if God allows it for some reason (such as a way to turn aside growing self-righteousness...
6. We can overcome any sin.
Christendom agrees and holds it to be true that Christ was and is sinless.
He came in the form of a man, and lived a sinless life.
However, as for the rest of us, can we ever become sinless too?
By that I mean, from a certain point in life, is it possible to abstain from sin for a decent amount of time. Let's say, a month, but we can say any long period of time for the sake of discussion.
(Not even "small" sins. Some mention, gossip, jealously over a car, etc.)
So, do you think it's possible, and if so, how can one become sinless for a month or more?
If you don't think it's possible, please explain why.
Edit:
Perhaps I should add this in a signature, but I'll just say,
be warned, I like to pick apart claims, and find out exactly what a person is saying. I also like to challenge claims, so if I challenge one of your claims, don't be too surprised.
Striving to live in total sinlessness is selfrightiousness.
We are not called to serve the law but to good works as God reveals to us. If we do the thing He places in our heart to do ( and it is He who gives us the desire to do that which He lays on our hearts) we are storing up treasures in heaven.
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. Philippians 3:9
Whether or not a person overcomes sin through human strength is irrelevant.
It seems very odd to me that anyone who is a Christian would deny that God played a part in helping a man to overcome sin. What Christian has ever said, "I overcame sin, no thanks to God". It strikes me as odd that anyone who's not joking would suggest that they believe such. Only an unbeliever would suggest that. I am no unbeliever, and for the thread, we are not talking about non-Christians overcoming sin, but instead Christians overcoming sin.
Secondly, if a person overcomes sin through human strength, that does not negate the fact that God would play a role in the process. In fact, it necessarily implies that God has actively worked in that persons life, and the righteous behavior that is attained by a Christian, is due to God having worked on man to guide him. So can we can dismiss any notion of a christian who says that God plays no role in sanctification?
As for the works of flesh, what you and I think about these two things seem to be very different.
It seems that you believe the works of the flesh are described as trying to overcome sin through human effort.
What had lead you to believe that?
I believe the works of the flesh are sin. Think about it, what is sin like? All sin is derived for the most part from the lust of the flesh, and that includes adultery, gluttony, homosexual acts, theft, and so on.
In fact, Paul describes the works of the flesh.
Galatians 5
His mentions in Romans, in regards to the works of the flesh, should be interpreted in light of the above passage.
There is nothing wrong with a believer, attempting to overcome an addiction through his own effort. Or should we shame those who attempt to stop their own sins, and label them as "self-righteous" people who are to be looked down on?
I've described the way I interpret that verse, and that deals with the Torah. If we're both talking about different things, iot seems that we're talking past each other, on entirely different paradigms.
From what I understand, you believe Christ's righteous is like a status, and that is put into your account, and it's as if God views you as righteous, and that is true even if you had continued in the addiction? Am I understanding you correctly?
So it seems to me what you're saying is Jesus, once we believe in him, we no longer have to fight temptation. It seems to me that you describe your own experience as such. But I ask, have you sinned since being saved? I have, and I believe it's my responsibility tasked by God to continue to try with my human effort to battle daily against sin.
I have never had the experience you've had in which all your desires for sin somehow without practice and diligence just vanish in a split second and remain that way for decades. I've had to deal with sin many times, and I've found myself in repentance, with despair and self-loathing as a Christian because of the sins I've committed.
Tell me, as a Christian should I expect God just to somehow make me stop desiring the things which I've struggled with; the things of sin? If so, why hasn't he taken away my heterosexuality, and made a desire no woman. Why hasn't he made me void of sin? Does it please him to see me try to fight sin, while he has taken away your sin without any effort on your part. I've asked God to simply take away temptation from me, and to make me stop sinning. I've done that multiple times, and later on I had fallen due to temptation and a lack of diligence. If I should be expecting the experience of the Christian life like you, who's behavior is transformed effortlessly, perhaps God is not in my life at all since I have been having to try to resist sin with failures at times.
This would be worth pondering about.
Sin causes death.
Christian believes he is saved.
Christian sins.
If Christian is saved, what is the point of the devil using his power to get the Christian to sin? Makes no sense whatsoever unless the devil believes that getting the Christian to sin can destroy the Christian.
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