A hopeless theology?

[holo]

The punishment was laid on Him.

 

[Sojourner<><]

2. There's a distinction (however difficult philosphically) between PERMITTING something (even empowering it) and DESIRING or CAUSING that to happen. Does God allow (even empower) the earthquake to happen? Okay. Does He specially will and desire it to happen? Maybe not.

This is more or less what I've been trying to say and its hardly a worthless thought!

 

[OldWiseGuy]

But that means that he authorized it, like he ordains pastors or marriage. Somehow I don't think that's quite it.

This is what the Bible teaches: 1) God creates man. 2)God commands man not to sin. 3) Man sins and suffers the consequence.

If god authorized disobedience then why did he tell man not to sin? Was he misleading man? Definately not.

Perhaps His apparent allowance of sin, disobedience and evil extends from His mercy. If God was not merciful wouldn't He have destroyed this earth already?

Somewhere between the original rebellion of (the one known as) Lucifer, and , 'the restitution of all things' (damaged by that rebellion) God is working out his anger and revenge. We humans are his whipping boys. If not none of this suffering would be happening. He would have restored his kingdom immediately. He has chosen not to, thus the suffering that we see throughout our history.

 

[Sojourner<><]

Somewhere between the original rebellion of (the one known as) Lucifer, and , 'the restitution of all things' (damaged by that rebellion) God is working out his anger and revenge. We humans are his whipping boys. If not none of this suffering would be happening. He would have restored his kingdom immediately. He has chosen not to, thus the suffering that we see throughout our history.

From Psalm 146: "Happy [is he] that [hath] the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope [is] in the LORD his God: Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein [is]: which keepeth truth for ever: Which executeth judgment for the oppressed: which giveth food to the hungry. The LORD looseth the prisoners: The LORD openeth [the eyes of] the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous: The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down. The LORD shall reign for ever, [even] thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD."

I think the Bible disagrees with you here.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

From Psalm 146: "Happy [is he] that [hath] the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope [is] in the LORD his God: Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein [is]: which keepeth truth for ever: Which executeth judgment for the oppressed: which giveth food to the hungry. The LORD looseth the prisoners: The LORD openeth [the eyes of] the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous: The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down. The LORD shall reign for ever, [even] thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD."

I think the Bible disagrees with you here.

What I said doesn't disagree with this at all. Remember that it is God who creates the conditions for failure as well as success (He sets before us blessings and/or cursings). It is God's original will that we fail so that he can save (certain of) us.

 

[Sojourner<><]

What I said doesn't disagree with this at all. Remember that it is God who creates the conditions for failure as well as success (He sets before us blessings and/or cursings). It is God's original will that we fail so that he can save (certain of) us.

So the God that is described in Psalm 146 is the same God that treats us as his 'whipping boys'? Please qualify.

 

[Sojourner<><]

The punishment was laid on Him.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So the God that is described in Psalm 146 is the same God that treats us as his 'whipping boys'? Please qualify.

God allowed Adam to sin, and punished him for it, and all others since. He did not have to do this. He chose to do it.

 

[Sojourner<><]

God allowed Adam to sin, and punished him for it, and all others since. He did not have to do this. He chose to do it.

He also commanded Adam not to sin. Do you think God secretly wanted Adam to sin?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

He also commanded Adam not to sin. Do you think God secretly wanted Adam to sin?

Only the indwelling of God's spirit could have prevented Adam from sinning.

 

[deshadow]

"Furthermore, if you do please consider these 3 questions: If you have a child that disobeys you, would it be your will to spank that child? (I would answer yes). Do you want to spank that child? (I hope not). And would it have been your will for the child to disobey so that you could spank that child? (if you answer yes to this question please provide your name, address, and names of your children so I can report you.)"



i dunno. what about gods approach?

(wait until your disobeying child has led a life fill of joy and wonder, trials, tribulations, love and hate, happiness ad utter misery, humility, grace, anger, stuidity and experience, wait until he has helped and touched some, and scared and damaged others, wait until the right moment, kill him, and then slap him forever in hell!)

 

[epistemaniac]

"Furthermore, if you do please consider these 3 questions: If you have a child that disobeys you, would it be your will to spank that child? (I would answer yes). Do you want to spank that child? (I hope not). And would it have been your will for the child to disobey so that you could spank that child? (if you answer yes to this question please provide your name, address, and names of your children so I can report you.)"



i dunno. what about gods approach?

(wait until your disobeying child has led a life fill of joy and wonder, trials, tribulations, love and hate, happiness ad utter misery, humility, grace, anger, stuidity and experience, wait until he has helped and touched some, and scared and damaged others, wait until the right moment, kill him, and then slap him forever in hell!)

I am not taking anything away from your querstions and/or concerns.... but if you continue to ask the same question... make the same sorts of statements in multiple places on the forum, you may find yourself in trouble for spamming....



blessings,
Ken

 

[deshadow]

sorry for posting the same question in three forums in this site with scores of forums. i just wanted to see where the best one for answers was. and what i posted in this thread is not spam. thats like calling a beleiver in the unlimited power of jesus a spammer for saying that praying to jesus will solve answers in every thread where someone has problems. im just applying my beleifs and questions to this thread. i do concede that my wacky ideas thread being triple posted was spam and i wont do stuff like that any more.

 

[Sojourner<><]

i dunno. what about gods approach?

(wait until your disobeying child has led a life fill of joy and wonder, trials, tribulations, love and hate, happiness ad utter misery, humility, grace, anger, stuidity and experience, wait until he has helped and touched some, and scared and damaged others, wait until the right moment, kill him, and then slap him forever in hell!)

That seems a little harsh. How did you come up with it?

 

[Sojourner<><]

Only the indwelling of God's spirit could have prevented Adam from sinning.

Ok I can agree with that.

 

[Teke]

This morning on my way to school I tuned in to a Bible radio broadcast. The program was on a lesson of God's sovereignty and His involvement in natural disasters. The preacher made the statement that we must consider God to have directly willed for all natural tragedies that have occurred. My own position on the subject is that God specifically causes some tragedies since He is sovereign but that some tragedies (and not all) are an indirect effect of the curse on this world. The preacher I listened to then commented on this view and stated that it is a "hopeless theology", but he failed to qualify his statment, at least in my own opinion. In doing so he attempted to assert that the Bible is not as concerned with defending God's character as much as some theologians (like me) are and that God can be very harsh in punishing us when He judges us. I agree about the judgement bit but I don't believe that He wants to judge the world because He loves the world (please note that I am not saying that God is a big softy and that He will forgive all sin and not punish anybody).

If you agree with him in that it is in fact a hopeless theology, can you explain why?

Furthermore, if you do please consider these 3 questions: If you have a child that disobeys you, would it be your will to spank that child? (I would answer yes). Do you want to spank that child? (I hope not). And would it have been your will for the child to disobey so that you could spank that child? (if you answer yes to this question please provide your name, address, and names of your children so I can report you.)

My point is that if any one person answered yes to all three of those questions, I think we could safely assume that his/her character is more than slightly flawed when it comes to parenting. Yet this is precisely the kind of theology I hear coming from someone who holds the view of the preacher I listened to this morning.

Any thoughts?

I haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if someone has brought this up already. But it sounds like this poster is relating more on the subject of contending, since children and discipline has been brought up.

As a parent and grandparent, I can tell you that God need not contend with His children. And scripture clearly states we are not to be contentious as christians.

1Cr 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

So, do I need to spank my child for obedience, no. What wisdom would there be in that.

Pro 13:10 Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised [is] wisdom.

Pro 17:14 The beginning of strife [is as] when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention, before it be meddled with.


Contention breeds strife and discord. I, along with the rest of the world, have given them (children) advice. By their decisions they will work out their salvation with God. They know He is always there for them, whatever they decide. Grant it, its a given there will be things they will also repent of, but either way He is there.

A wise adult does not contend with children. We love them. We suffer them in suffering with them thru the trials we know they must face in life. And in that we develop relationships with them. There are many dysfunctional people that are not even able to develop relationships or function in relationships ( we all know people like this).

Do you think God should contend with His children? Perhaps you meant something else.

Everything is His will. But then I suppose that depends on how one sees the metaphysics of it all.

"It depends on what one understands by metaphysics. If one means the projection of an ideal world behind or above the one in which we live — a sort of rationalized mythology — then metaphysics is indeed an unreal discussion, having not even the revealing character of myth. If one means the rationalizing of mystery, then it is even less serviceable for theology.

Metaphysics can, however, also be the expression of the mystery that our real world does not conceal behind it, but is itself."
Piet Schoonenberg

 

[Sojourner<><]

I haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if someone has brought this up already. But it sounds like this poster is relating more on the subject of contending, since children and discipline has been brought up.

As a parent and grandparent, I can tell you that God need not contend with His children. And scripture clearly states we are not to be contentious as christians.

1Cr 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

So, do I need to spank my child for obedience, no. What wisdom would there be in that.

Pro 13:10 Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised [is] wisdom.

Pro 17:14 The beginning of strife [is as] when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention, before it be meddled with.


Contention breeds strife and discord. I, along with the rest of the world, have given them (children) advice. By their decisions they will work out their salvation with God. They know He is always there for them, whatever they decide. Grant it, its a given there will be things they will also repent of, but either way He is there.

A wise adult does not contend with children. We love them. We suffer them in suffering with them thru the trials we know they must face in life. And in that we develop relationships with them. There are many dysfunctional people that are not even able to develop relationships or function in relationships ( we all know people like this).

Do you think God should contend with His children? Perhaps you meant something else.

Everything is His will. But then I suppose that depends on how one sees the metaphysics of it all.

"It depends on what one understands by metaphysics. If one means the projection of an ideal world behind or above the one in which we live &#8212; a sort of rationalized mythology &#8212; then metaphysics is indeed an unreal discussion, having not even the revealing character of myth. If one means the rationalizing of mystery, then it is even less serviceable for theology.

Metaphysics can, however, also be the expression of the mystery that our real world does not conceal behind it, but is itself."
Piet Schoonenberg

What its really about is God's sovereignty and motives behind what He does or does not allow.

Since I first started this thread, I have found a good verse that pretty much proves my point...

Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly, nor grieve the children of men


Ok so we know that He does allow sufferings, and they fit within His will, but it is not His desire for this to happen.

 

[Zeena]

God will not superceed the will of man, for He is not a man like us to lie!

Far be it from God to do evil!

He will, however, keep man in line with His will, through the man's own will!

A good example of this is set forth in Pharoh, when God hardened His heart to not let the people of God go free..But this was still Pharoh's intention all along! LOL!

 

[bliz]

But Pharoh desired to bring the Hebrews back into captivity, and God put a stop to that. God superceeded the will of Pharoh.

I believe that anything that happens is directly caused by God or is allowed by God. God is never out of control, and He has the ability to step in and change anything anytime He wishes. Why he does or does not act is beyond our understanding.

 

[Teke]

What its really about is God's sovereignty and motives behind what He does or does not allow.

Since God doesn't change, He doesn't have motives. The same plan from the beginning doesn't change.

Since I first started this thread, I have found a good verse that pretty much proves my point...

Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly, nor grieve the children of men


Ok so we know that He does allow sufferings, and they fit within His will, but it is not His desire for this to happen.

He created everything good (Gen. 1). It is satan who seeks to take what is good that God created, and create evil from it. God created from nothing, but that which is created, seeks to do evil with that good that God created.

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.
I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
Is. 34:18,19


The Eternal Purpose
And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Eph. 3:9-11

We are perfected in suffering.

Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Phl. 3:8-11

So yeah, everything happens according to His will. It is up to each one of us how we respond to that.