a great and balanced view of the Old vs New Calendar

[Gxg (G²)]

Is there any inherent danger if you use one calender over another - as in doing something Christ would look down upon you for?

 

[88Devin07]

Is there any inherent danger if you use one calender over another - as in doing something Christ would look down upon you for?

no

 

[ArmyMatt]

Is there any inherent danger if you use one calender over another - as in doing something Christ would look down upon you for?

both calendars have produced saints. both are in full communion with each other. yes, the Old is more theologically correct in certain areas, but the Apostles were neither on the Old or the New.

 

[88Devin07]

both calendars have produced saints. both are in full communion with each other. yes, the Old is more theologically correct in certain areas, but the Apostles were neither on the Old or the New.

What ArmyMatt refers to are churches like Russia, Ukraine, Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria which are all on the Old Calendar, are in full communion with the churches of Greece, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria and Cyprus, which are all on the New Calendar.

There are some Old Calendarists who are purposely in schism with the other Orthodox Churches, but they are a very small minority. These groups are mainly in Greece, and form a small minority there and elsewhere.

 

[jckstraw72]

it should be noted that Elder Paisios was definitely in support of the Old Calendar and understood that the mess caused by the New Calendar is from the Devil, but, nevertheless, he did not believe it was worth schisming over.

 

[ArmyMatt]

it should be noted that Elder Paisios was definitely in support of the Old Calendar and understood that the mess caused by the New Calendar is from the Devil, but, nevertheless, he did not believe it was worth schisming over.

yep, exactly like Elder Cleopa, Elder Ephraim, Abbot Tryphon, etc

 

[88Devin07]

it should be noted that Elder Paisios was definitely in support of the Old Calendar and understood that the mess caused by the New Calendar is from the Devil, but, nevertheless, he did not believe it was worth schisming over.

But not that the New Calendar itself is from the Devil. There's no doubt that the problems resulting from the imposition of it were from Satan, just as the problems resulting from Patriarch Nikon's reforms. But the New Calendar itself is not evil just as the traditions of the Greeks (which Patriarch Nikon tried to impose on the Russians) weren't evil.

 

[Dorothea]

I am sorry, but I cannot accept the teachings of Father Paisios.
His writings greatly disturb me.

We are to hold to the Ancient Faith and our Holy Tradition.
The New Calendar brought onto us by Freemasons is not of God.

Wow. I best not show this to my husband. He loves Elder Paisios and is in the process of trying to collect all his books. The elder has been a great influence in his spiritual life.

 

[88Devin07]

Wow. I best not show this to my husband. He loves Elder Paisios and is in the process of trying to collect all his books. The elder has been a great influence in his spiritual life.

Elder Paisios is a great and holy man, no doubt a Saint. The Old Calendarist friend I made in Greece even revered him highly. I guess only the most fanatical of Greek Old Calendarists would regard him as also heretical.

Of course, Greek Old Calendarists are so fundamentalist, fanatical and extremist that they'd regard me as a heretic for even standing there while a Protestant family member says grace at a meal. Especially when I'll then cross myself (normally I'll be saying a silent prayer in my head) alongside my Roman Catholic sister-in-law. Heck, I'm probably the vilest of vile ecumenist heretics for living with Protestants, for attending a Protestant Christmas Eve carol service, and for once attending my sister-in-law's mass. (I never once took communion or anything, nor sung any words I felt were heretical, and when it came, I omitted the filioque)

The type of fanaticism seen in Greek Old Calendarists is certainly not of God, they put their ritual and little traditions above the rest of the Orthodox faith and unity with world-wide Orthodox Christianity. Nothing justifies schism, ever, end of story.

 

[buzuxi02]

It's really all nonsense. The reason why there is animosity on both sides is because of poor leadership and hippocritical leadership.

Both sides bash each other but when a particular bishop or priest or parish is looking to defect, then they become wonderful people. I can think of plenty of examples from both sides. There have been strong bishops in the past who never had to bash the other side and were able to hold onto their convictions. The worst part is the laity and some naive priests actually buy into the hypocrisy, and actually think their bishops really mean it when they hold a hardline position.

The strong bishops which come along once inawhile can see through the muck. These bishops viewed the situation as a suspension of Communion with the final chapter yet to be written.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

What ArmyMatt refers to are churches like Russia, Ukraine, Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria which are all on the Old Calendar, are in full communion with the churches of Greece, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria and Cyprus, which are all on the New Calendar..

Thanks for sharing....although to be clear, I aleady know what Army Matt is referring to/talking on - as I wasn't asking from the perspective of a seeker since I go with the Gregorian calender as do most other Coptic Orthodox (more here, here, and here).

• The Glorious Feast of Nativity: 7 January? 29 Kiahk? 25 December? - Coptic Orthodox Calender"

Perhaps I should've been more clear in that I was asking a question from the perspective that I don't really see anything inherently wrong either way in how you celebrate it. ..but if others tend to see it as a sin to do one above the other, I'm curious as to why that is the case. Where I'm at, they don't take it to be a matter worth fighting over...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

both calendars have produced saints. both are in full communion with each other. yes, the Old is more theologically correct in certain areas, but the Apostles were neither on the Old or the New.

Thank you for noting that, as that's pretty much what I was thinking and I have been perplexed as to why there are so many choosing to go to war on the issue as if it's central to the Gospel of Christ.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I try to ignore that kind of stuff, too, 88. My kids go to a Lutheran school here in town since there obviously is not an Orthodox one! Some people on here probably think I'm "confusing" them or leading them down the path to sheol. I attend their field trips, Christmas shows, spelling bees, and other events. My kids are doing GREAT!

There are people who think home-schooling, hating Santa Claus, following old calendars, and never entering a temple with pews are somehow the ONLY way to Truth with a capital T. You know you're ok, you know what's up, so folks like us just have to roll some eyes and smile...

Elder Paisios is a great and holy man, no doubt a Saint. The Old Calendarist friend I made in Greece even revered him highly. I guess only the most fanatical of Greek Old Calendarists would regard him as also heretical.

Of course, Greek Old Calendarists are so fundamentalist, fanatical and extremist that they'd regard me as a heretic for even standing there while a Protestant family member says grace at a meal. Especially when I'll then cross myself (normally I'll be saying a silent prayer in my head) alongside my Roman Catholic sister-in-law. Heck, I'm probably the vilest of vile ecumenist heretics for living with Protestants, for attending a Protestant Christmas Eve carol service, and for once attending my sister-in-law's mass. (I never once took communion or anything, nor sung any words I felt were heretical, and when it came, I omitted the filioque)

The type of fanaticism seen in Greek Old Calendarists is certainly not of God, they put their ritual and little traditions above the rest of the Orthodox faith and unity with world-wide Orthodox Christianity. Nothing justifies schism, ever, end of story.

 

[buzuxi02]

I'm curious though - I know the state and the Church are fairly closely connected in Greece. Is that why they were involved in enforcing the change?

Everything you read on the issue is an oversimplification. There just the talking points and no side wants to really discuss the historical situation of Greece which lead to this problem.

From the time of WW1 to the greek civil war in the late 1940's the nation was bitterly divided over royalists and republicans. This was so severe that its known as the 'National Schism" in greek history books. There was so much political polarization that there was bitter fighting over calendars, over which form of the greek langage should be used, to what architecture pubic buildings should have.

The animosity and rift between the royalists and the Venezelists lead to the defeat of the greek army in Turkey which resulted in the Smyrna Genocide. During these early years (before and after Smyrna) everytime there was a regime change between the two factions they would also oust the archbishop and replace him with one loyal to their regime. So one archbishop would be exiled then brought back after the regime change, and once that regime fell again to their predecessor, the returning government would reinstate the former bishop while exiling the latter non-loyal one .

After the Smyrna catastrophe, the royalists who were in power during the fiasco were ousted once again. The new government came back to power and the church implemented the calendar change, this government is known as the Second Hellenic Republic and lasted from 1924-1935. The majority of the old calendarists tended to be royalists and heavy handed approaches were used to squash them. Some of the bishops of Greece either sided with the regime, while others were sympathetic to the old calendarists but kept silent not to draw the wrath of the regime.

By 1935 the pendulum began to swing the other way (an ongoing great depression and the absorption of 1.5 million refugees will do that) and the president became a royalist sympathizer. This allegiance change lead to the 1935 Venezelist coup to rid the government of royalists. The Venezelists were unsuccessful, the ywere crushed and the monarchy was reinstated. The venezelist sympathizers in the military were convicted of treason and put to death. There was a purge of the venezelists from the government. At that time, the bishops sympathetic to the old calendar felt free to return their diocese back to the old calendar without persecution.

This is how the old calendarists recieved there bishops. This is why the 1935 old calendarists declaration speaks of dividing the church between 'two opposing camps'. They reallly had in mind the National Schism, (though obviously sympathetic to the royalist position).

At that time there was a belief the old calendar would be returned as the bishops loyal to the previous government would either capitulate, be replaced, or whatever. Unfortunately WW2 came along and then the civil war broke out against the emergent communists and everything was put on the back burner. Thats how we went from there to here.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you for noting that, as that's pretty much what I was thinking and I have been perplexed as to why there are so many choosing to go to war on the issue as if it's central to the Gospel of Christ.

yeah, it's the trick of the devil to try to turn something godly into a problem.

 

[MKJ]

Everything you read on the issue is an oversimplification. There just the talking points and no side wants to really discuss the historical situation of Greece which lead to this problem.

From the time of WW1 to the greek civil war in the late 1940's the nation was bitterly divided over royalists and republicans. This was so severe that its known as the 'National Schism" in greek history books. There was so much political polarization that there was bitter fighting over calendars, over which form of the greek langage should be used, to what architecture pubic buildings should have.

The animosity and rift between the royalists and the Venezelists lead to the defeat of the greek army in Turkey which resulted in the Smyrna Genocide. During these early years (before and after Smyrna) everytime there was a regime change between the two factions they would also oust the archbishop and replace him with one loyal to their regime. So one archbishop would be exiled then brought back after the regime change, and once that regime fell again to their predecessor, the returning government would reinstate the former bishop while exiling the latter non-loyal one .

After the Smyrna catastrophe, the royalists who were in power during the fiasco were ousted once again. The new government came back to power and the church implemented the calendar change, this government is known as the Second Hellenic Republic and lasted from 1924-1935. The majority of the old calendarists tended to be royalists and heavy handed approaches were used to squash them. Some of the bishops of Greece either sided with the regime, while others were sympathetic to the old calendarists but kept silent not to draw the wrath of the regime.

By 1935 the pendulum began to swing the other way (an ongoing great depression and the absorption of 1.5 million refugees will do that) and the president became a royalist sympathizer. This allegiance change lead to the 1935 Venezelist coup to rid the government of royalists. The Venezelists were unsuccessful, the ywere crushed and the monarchy was reinstated. The venezelist sympathizers in the military were convicted of treason and put to death. There was a purge of the venezelists from the government. At that time, the bishops sympathetic to the old calendar felt free to return their diocese back to the old calendar without persecution.

This is how the old calendarists recieved there bishops. This is why the 1935 old calendarists declaration speaks of dividing the church between 'two opposing camps'. They reallly had in mind the National Schism, (though obviously sympathetic to the royalist position).

At that time there was a belief the old calendar would be returned as the bishops loyal to the previous government would either capitulate, be replaced, or whatever. Unfortunately WW2 came along and then the civil war broke out against the emergent communists and everything was put on the back burner. Thats how we went from there to here.

Wow, what a mess!

Almost enough to make one appreciate the separation of church and state!