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A Foreigner's Question

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Oneofthediaspora

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Even though I am British and live in Britain; like many, many people here I am very interested in the US presidential election and have been following it closely in the media. I have also been very interested in the many threads in this and other fora of CF on the subject.

One question keeps coming to my mind. It is completely hypothetical obviously, but here goes...

If McCain and Obama were both pro-life/anti-abortion; which candidate/party would then represent the most Christian choice?
 

Oneofthediaspora

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To a European, your representation of Obama as an extreme socialist/borderline Marxist actually seems like a joke. Don't take that the wrong way, it's just that we have actual socialists here and Obama's politics really don't fit the bill. Over here he would be regarded as somewhere in the centre.

I know I'm not qualified to say, not being an American and all; but I think you're "Neither, really" just about sums it up. Which is a real shame.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Even though I am British and live in Britain; like many, many people here I am very interested in the US presidential election and have been following it closely in the media. I have also been very interested in the many threads in this and other fora of CF on the subject.

One question keeps coming to my mind. It is completely hypothetical obviously, but here goes...

If McCain and Obama were both pro-life/anti-abortion; which candidate/party would then represent the most Christian choice?


Obama is more aligned with the Church. Ironically, when Obama worked as an organizer in Chicago, they operated out of the basement of a Catholic Church. I believe it was St. Teresa's.

McCain's war mongerism, bad temperament and lack of intellectual understanding of other cultures, especially in the Middle East, makes him a disaster.

McCain is much like Bush in many respects.

Jim
 
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InTheCloud

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Getting sexuall politics out of the way some would say Obama but I really do not see it.
In my opinion he is just to vage. Obama is like those south american populist that are what people what them to be because they are like a mirror. I have yet to see the real Obama.
And I'm a foreginer too.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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McCain would still be the more "Christian" choice, because he will help the economy while Obama will just raise taxes, i know he said he will only raise taxes for the "rich" but I do not trust him


But you trust McCain who voted against the Bush tax cut. :D


Jim
 
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benedictaoo

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To a European, your representation of Obama as an extreme socialist/borderline Marxist actually seems like a joke. Don't take that the wrong way, it's just that we have actual socialists here and Obama's politics really don't fit the bill. Over here he would be regarded as somewhere in the centre.

I know I'm not qualified to say, not being an American and all; but I think you're "Neither, really" just about sums it up. Which is a real shame.

Yeah it is, but as an American, this is America and we just ain't down with this is socialism stuff because it's not what made America the great country she is.

Obama wants to "fundamentally change" that and that is what the real shame is. Now he's saying he won't raise taxes on ppl under 120,000$. First it was 250, then it was 200, then it was 150, and now it's 120. But I digress.

Like I said, I'm no capitalist, I think that does create the haves and the have nots but the answer to capitalism she as heck is not socialism.
 
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benedictaoo

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McCain would still be the more "Christian" choice, because he will help the economy while Obama will just raise taxes, i know he said he will only raise taxes for the "rich" but I do not trust him

The rich went from 250 down to 120 just this morning. By Tuesday, it will be at 42... just what he and Biden voted for last year.
 
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SolomonVII

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To a European, your representation of Obama as an extreme socialist/borderline Marxist actually seems like a joke. Don't take that the wrong way, it's just that we have actual socialists here and Obama's politics really don't fit the bill. Over here he would be regarded as somewhere in the centre.

I know I'm not qualified to say, not being an American and all; but I think you're "Neither, really" just about sums it up. Which is a real shame.

Compared to what the American system has been, Europe (and Canada) itself is more socialist. What Obama wants, the appeal he made in Berlin really, is for America to become more "world citizen" along the European line of fraternity. He wants more government money being spent on semi-socialized health care, more money going to a government approved education, and along with the Democrats like Pelosi, he would be more amendable to more government regulations on free speech. Namely they would want right wing talk radio shut down in the name of 'fairness'.
this is something that Europe already has. Europeans and Canadians too are more used to having more goverment in our lives. This is the change that the democrats are looking for.

There is no crisp, clear lines of demarcation between America and Europe of course, but Obama and the Democrats are much more interested in equality of results where the rich are taxed down closer to the level of the poor, and disparity is thereby reduced. They want a strong central government capable of controlling all aspects of society, not so much against the capitalists, but in cooperation with the big business and big labor. This is not to say that they are against the capitalists of course and that they want the state to run the economy like in capitalism. Rather there are more into a cooperative venture with the capitalists, like Warren Buffet, for example, who fully supports Obama, as do many other capitalists.
Contrary to popular opinion, the typical Republican voter is not a sleek Wall Street banker, but as often as not he is rural working poor who is just not interested in what big government has to offer.

This is not to say that Republicans are not in the back pocket of capitalists either, btw. What is more true to say though, is that there is still a strong wing of the Republican base, energized by Palin, who have a strong distrust of government and who want government power limited. This Republican base is almost wholly missing in Canada and Europe too I think, but it is still very much alive in America.
In terms of Catholic doctrine, as laid out by Leo XIII and the doctrine of subsidiarity that arose from his teachings, people should be enabled to control their lives as much as possible. More than either Obama or McCain, or Biden too, Palin's approach to government in my mind captures the essence of this doctrine.

It is her that has captivated the Republican base for the Republicans and not McCain.
 
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Caedmon

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To a European, your representation of Obama as an extreme socialist/borderline Marxist actually seems like a joke. Don't take that the wrong way, it's just that we have actual socialists here and Obama's politics really don't fit the bill. Over here he would be regarded as somewhere in the centre.
THANK YOU. That's real proof that Obama's not a socialist, much less a Marxist or Communist.
 
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Rhamiel

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yeah by Euro standards Obama is centre-left
but I feel that if he could get away with it he would be a lot more left wing, in America you can not be a hardcore socislist and get power, and ohhhhh some people are just power hungry, that they will say anything to get elected
 
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Caedmon

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yeah by Euro standards Obama is centre-left
but I feel that if he could get away with it he would be a lot more left wing, in America you can not be a hardcore socislist and get power, and ohhhhh some people are just power hungry, that they will say anything to get elected
Yeah, hey, I don't care if people want McCain in there, but to say that Obama is a socialist is bunk. We have a real European's opinion to back that one up. I just think it's intellectually dishonest to call him something that he's not. Oppose your opponent for what he is, not for what he isn't. And I think it's still a little conjectural, if not dishonest, to say he's a power-hungry socialist-in-the-closet too. Number one, the American people aren't going to elect a socialist as President; that much is true from the pathetic number of socialist candidate votes, if any. And number two, Congress would never let him swing that far; they'd do everything in their power to put him on ice politically.
 
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fated

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Even though I am British and live in Britain; like many, many people here I am very interested in the US presidential election and have been following it closely in the media. I have also been very interested in the many threads in this and other fora of CF on the subject.

One question keeps coming to my mind. It is completely hypothetical obviously, but here goes...

If McCain and Obama were both pro-life/anti-abortion; which candidate/party would then represent the most Christian choice?
McCain is a bit closer because he doesn't want to do everything with the federal government. I suppose people could reasonably disagree with me on that, but the problem is what needs to happen is some system that insists that peoples non-death dealing needs are met to the best ability of the local community, and then assistance offered if that is impossible. Thus, some kind of unfunded mandates would be fine. Although you often get problems with lazy states and cities refusing to pay for their own stuff with their own tax money.

But that is beside the point. To have a more substantive discussion, read about subsidiarity in the Catechism:
1883 Socialization also presents dangers. Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative. The teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity, according to which "a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to co- ordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good."7
1884 God has not willed to reserve to himself all exercise of power. He entrusts to every creature the functions it is capable of performing, according to the capacities of its own nature. This mode of governance ought to be followed in social life. The way God acts in governing the world, which bears witness to such great regard for human freedom, should inspire the wisdom of those who govern human communities. They should behave as ministers of divine providence.
1885 The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism. It sets limits for state intervention. It aims at harmonizing the relationships between individuals and societies. It tends toward the establishment of true international order.




http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c2a1.htm

It makes a lot of sense, considering it would call for the use of local human resources and the product would be their own success or failure. Several tiers of reviewers could be used to assist with problems that arise.

That's my philosophy, and its closer to restrained government size, though I don't want the government to be weak, but rather strong, without doing much in the day to day lives of people. Normally its intervention should be effective and strong... and not because it wants to enable murder.
 
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benedictaoo

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THANK YOU. That's real proof that Obama's not a socialist, much less a Marxist or Communist.

Umm, it's a foot in the door... it's the road we will beginning to head down on becoming like Europe... it's the beginning of the end of our democracy and freedoms and free market. Just sayin'.

You want to open that door to becoming a socialist society where the government no longer works for you, where they are no longer public servants, but we are their servant, where we work for them. Not them working for us?

I'm not willing willing to open that door and go there with Obama and that is exactly what we will be doing, opening that door.
 
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benedictaoo

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Yeah, hey, I don't care if people want McCain in there, but to say that Obama is a socialist is bunk. We have a real European's opinion to back that one up. I just think it's intellectually dishonest to call him something that he's not. Oppose your opponent for what he is, not for what he isn't. And I think it's still a little conjectural, if not dishonest, to say he's a power-hungry socialist-in-the-closet too. Number one, the American people aren't going to elect a socialist as President; that much is true from the pathetic number of socialist candidate votes, if any. And number two, Congress would never let him swing that far; they'd do everything in their power to put him on ice politically.

I don't think you know what the definition of socialism really is. And the Democrats are that far left now... where have you been? Ever here of Polosi?

And Congress is on the verge of being a single party congress... we may not even have enough Republicans in there to do a filibuster. The Democrats will not serve, they will rule.

Obama is definitely wanting to do some social engineering with our tax money and denying that blows my mind.

But here is the gist of the problem, he can't do it because the government is broke, spending is out of control, so he will roll back spending on things like military which is what our tax system was initially set up to pay for mind you, it was never set up to bank roll socialist programs but he will spend it on social programs and welfare checks for ppl who has not earned that income.

This is NOT how America got to be the great country she is and slowing becoming the country she was. I'm not interested in telling my great grandchildren about an America that use to be.

But the real problem here is there just isn't going to be enough revenue coming from the "rich" to do this, so the middle class will be hit and now we are hearing from Richardson that middle class is belwo 120$ a year, not 250.

So who's going to be receiving these welfare checks? It does not take a rocket genius to figure it out especially since we have heard that Bams is taking the civil rights economic (settlement) issue to the Supreme Court.

So what that means is everyone who earns pay will be taxed to pay for social programs, like heath care. They will take our money and decided how they will spend it on us and give us what they claim we are in need of.

And did you hear? The latest stimulus package that might be given out may just be in food stamps, it's beginning already.

This is not remotely American but socialist and if we cut our defense to create this socialist government then the whole world is at risk.
 
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AMDG

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To a European, your representation of Obama as an extreme socialist/borderline Marxist actually seems like a joke. Don't take that the wrong way, it's just that we have actual socialists here and Obama's politics really don't fit the bill. Over here he would be regarded as somewhere in the centre.

Well, according to Gary L. Bauer in his October 27th speech in the Campaign for Working Families, Obama = Socialist. (And as far as I know, the Church is not for Socialism. It's neither fair nor does it work.) But the question is about life.
 
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Oneofthediaspora

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Gary L. Bauer ... the ultra right wing American neo-conservative Gary L. Bauer?

Now I could be wrong here but I think there might be just the smallest possibility that Gary would not like Obama to be President and so would perhaps like to caricature him as "socialist" because Americans have a visceral rather than cerebral reaction to this word and view it very negatively.

I think maybe the word "socialism" means something different in America then it does in the US.

What's the view of the general American public of Sarah Palin?
 
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