A finely tuned universe that points to a God.

[Chriliman]

Why does it take faith to say, "I don't know"?

It doesn't take faith to say "I don't know", however, it's unreasonable to refuse to believe something that makes perfect sense.

If a perfect explanation of why we exist in this universe was clearly stated to you, you would have to say "okay I believe that because it makes sense to me". Unfortunately, you'll gladly consider all theories and accept them as long as the term "God" is nowhere near them. All this tells me, is that the term "God" has far more meaning to you than you lead on. To you, its seems, the term "God" is to be ignored completely and replaced with any other theory or concept, whether or not the theory or concept actually makes good sense. If God isn't in the theory then the theory is worth looking at, regardless if in the end the theory turns out to be completely false.

As a Christian who believes in God, this behavior of constantly denying God in favor of other theories that turn out be wrong is frustrating to say the least, but alas God gives me the faith to persevere

 

[bhsmte]

It doesn't take faith to say "I don't know", however, it's unreasonable to refuse to believe something that makes perfect sense.

If a perfect explanation of why we exist in this universe was clearly stated to you, you would have to say "okay I believe that because it makes sense to me". Unfortunately, you'll gladly consider all theories and accept them as long as the term "God" is nowhere near them. All this tells me, is that the term "God" has far more meaning to you than you lead on. To you, its seems, the term "God" is to be ignored completely and replaced with any other theory or concept, whether or not the theory or concept actually makes good sense. If God isn't in the theory then the theory is worth looking at, regardless if in the end the theory turns out to be completely false.

As a Christian who believes in God, this behavior of constantly denying God in favor of other theories that turn out be wrong is frustrating to say the least, but alas God gives me the faith to persevere

And who determines what a "perfect explanation" is of why we exist?

 

[Davian]

It doesn't take faith to say "I don't know", however, it's unreasonable to refuse to believe something that makes perfect sense.

Do you believe that Sun orbits the Earth?

If a perfect explanation of why we exist in this universe was clearly stated to you, you would have to say "okay I believe that because it makes sense to me". Unfortunately, you'll gladly consider all theories and accept them as long as the term "God" is nowhere near them. All this tells me, is that the term "God" has far more meaning to you than you lead on. To you, its seems, the term "God" is to be ignored completely and replaced with any other theory or concept, whether or not the theory or concept actually makes good sense. If God isn't in the theory then the theory is worth looking at, regardless if in the end the theory turns out to be completely false.

I do not see your relgious opinion as a "perfect explanation". It does not explain anything.

As a Christian who believes in God, this behavior of constantly denying God in favor of other theories that turn out be wrong is frustrating to say the least, but alas God gives me the faith to persevere

Imagine if you had access to a higher power, a greater source of information, something that could provide compelling evidence for your claims? Would that not be cool it that were true?

 

[Loudmouth]

It doesn't take faith to say "I don't know", however, it's unreasonable to refuse to believe something that makes perfect sense.

An argument from common sense is a logical fallacy. Simply asserting that something makes sense does not make it true. What you need to do is present verifiable evidence that backs your explanation.

Unfortunately, you'll gladly consider all theories and accept them as long as the term "God" is nowhere near them.

I will accept theories that are backed by evidence. If there was evidence for God doing anything I would accept it.

I am also curious. From what I have seen, creationists are not. They are usually afraid of what science will find, or has already found. It is that attitude that I speak against the most. I also see creationists twisting themselves into knots trying to invent reasons why they shouldn't have evidence. Their efforts seem to be spent on making God indistinguishable from God not existing.

The last 200 years has shown that scientific explanations hold the best chance of being evidenced. We have seen thousands of supernatural explanations be replaced by scientific explanations, but not once has a supernatural explanation replaced a scientific one. For me, those pursuing a scientific explanation have the best chance of solving the question. However, if people find evidence of a deity creating universes, then I will gladly accept that evidence.

As a Christian who believes in God, this behavior of constantly denying God in favor of other theories that turn out be wrong is frustrating to say the least, but alas God gives me the faith to persevere

Too bad he doesn't give you evidence that you can present here. Don't forget, it is the theists using faith as a pejorative in these threads. When you use "faith" as a reason not to accept something, you only shoot yourself in the foot.

 

[TLK Valentine]

It doesn't take faith to say "I don't know", however, it's unreasonable to refuse to believe something that makes perfect sense.

If a perfect explanation of why we exist in this universe was clearly stated to you, you would have to say "okay I believe that because it makes sense to me". Unfortunately, you'll gladly consider all theories and accept them as long as the term "God" is nowhere near them.

Because once you start tossing in gods, it no longer makes perfect sense.

 

[KCfromNC]

It doesn't take faith to say "I don't know", however, it's unreasonable to refuse to believe something that makes perfect sense.

I just flipped a coin, it came up heads. That claim makes perfect sense - does it mean it accurately reflects reality? Not in this case, since not only didn't it come up head but I didn't even flip a coin.

It is easy to make claims that maybe could be true. Demonstrating that they are is the hard part.

 

[ananda]

Some of the evidence that supports my certainty that God produced and sustains the universe is that it is finely tuned all over to allow even the existence of atomic matter, let alone life and consciousness. If one of the fundamental constants (the weak atomic force for example) was off by a scale of a hair, molecular existence would not form at all.

... perhaps a better way to put it is "if one of the fundamental constants was off by a scale of a hair, existence as we know it now would not form at all," but perhaps another reality which accounts for different constants would be realized.

 

[TLK Valentine]

... perhaps a better way to put it is "if one of the fundamental constants was off by a scale of a hair, existence as we know it now would not form at all," but perhaps another reality which accounts for different constants would be realized.

Pretty much -- if things weren't the way they are, they'd be... something else.

 

[Heissonear]

And who determines what a "perfect explanation" is of why we exist?

He has been at the door to your innermost on many occasions, but since He is not detected by your ears/eyes/smell/taste/touch you stay unaware. Your dust man calls His work within you "not around", that is why the dust man needs faith. The innermost obtains the evidence, the substance. Things become new. His Kingdom is in our midst, and consists of power (I Corinthians 4:20). Is your soul ready to check out the other direction, or will it stay in bondage to carnal life?

 

[TLK Valentine]

He has been at the door to your innermost on many occasions, but since He is not detected by your ears/eyes/smell/taste/touch you stay unaware. Your dust man calls His work within you "not around", that is why the dust man needs faith. The innermost obtains the evidence, the substance. Things become new. His Kingdom is in our midst, and consists of power (I Corinthians 4:20). Is your soul ready to check out the other direction, or will it stay in bondage to carnal life?

That's nice.

 

[bhsmte]

He has been at the door to your innermost on many occasions, but since He is not detected by your ears/eyes/smell/taste/touch you stay unaware. Your dust man calls His work within you "not around", that is why the dust man needs faith. The innermost obtains the evidence, the substance. Things become new. His Kingdom is in our midst, and consists of power (I Corinthians 4:20). Is your soul ready to check out the other direction, or will it stay in bondage to carnal life?

Doesn't address my question.

 

[pmb]

There are too many posts here for me to read them all before I reply so I'm starting from scratch from the first one, i.e.
[QUOTE="Usus Vox Tractus]
Some of the evidence that supports my certainty that God produced and sustains the universe is that it is finely tuned all over to allow even the existence of atomic matter, let alone life and consciousness. If one of the fundamental constants (the weak atomic force for example) was off by a scale of a hair, molecular existence would not form at all.
[/QUOTE]
That doesn't imply the existence of God though. You mentioned that Paul Davies agrees that the universe is sort of "tuned" for life. I agree. Does that imply the existence of a creator? No. To make that assumption you'd have to demonstrate that it couldn't have happened any other way. However that's not true. Paul Davies also published a paper on Multiverse Cosmological models which I read some years back. If I recall correctly in these models there are various universes each of which has different possible values of all the parameters found in the laws of nature. An example is the existence of regions of space so large that they are too far away for use to detect them and in those regions the parameters aren't right for life. Life would therefore only occur in those regions of he universe for which the natural parameters are just right for life. In such a case one need not invoke the existence of God to make it work.

 

[Heissonear]

There are too many posts here for me to read them all before I reply so I'm starting from scratch from the first one, i.e.
[QUOTE="Usus Vox Tractus]
Some of the evidence that supports my certainty that God produced and sustains the universe is that it is finely tuned all over to allow even the existence of atomic matter, let alone life and consciousness. If one of the fundamental constants (the weak atomic force for example) was off by a scale of a hair, molecular existence would not form at all.

That doesn't imply the existence of God though. You mentioned that Paul Davies agrees that the universe is sort of "tuned" for life. I agree. Does that imply the existence of a creator? No. To make that assumption you'd have to demonstrate that it couldn't have happened any other way. However that's not true. Paul Davies also published a paper on Multiverse Cosmological models which I read some years back. If I recall correctly in these models there are various universes each of which has different possible values of all the parameters found in the laws of nature. An example is the existence of regions of space so large that they are too far away for use to detect them and in those regions the parameters aren't right for life. Life would therefore only occur in those regions of he universe for which the natural parameters are just right for life. In such a case one need not invoke the existence of God to make it work.[/QUOTE]
A little slow to learn about the Spiritual Realm. It is in our midst and in power (I Corinthians 4 : 20).

Provoke such to existense? Too late and ignorant. And slow to learn its reality.

 

[Loudmouth]

He has been at the door to your innermost on many occasions, but since He is not detected by your ears/eyes/smell/taste/touch you stay unaware.

IOW, God is indistinguishable from something made up.

 

[Oafman]

He has been at the door to your innermost on many occasions, but since He is not detected by your ears/eyes/smell/taste/touch you stay unaware. Your dust man calls His work within you "not around", that is why the dust man needs faith. The innermost obtains the evidence, the substance. Things become new. His Kingdom is in our midst, and consists of power (I Corinthians 4:20). Is your soul ready to check out the other direction, or will it stay in bondage to carnal life?

Every single word of that says just one thing to me - that God exists only in peoples' imaginations.

 

[TLK Valentine]

IOW, God is indistinguishable from something made up.

But of course -- Every "god" is a cultural symbol of an unattainable perfection.

 

[Viren]

... perhaps a better way to put it is "if one of the fundamental constants was off by a scale of a hair, existence as we know it now would not form at all," but perhaps another reality which accounts for different constants would be realized.

Yep, that's why the fine tuning argument never made sense to me. It assumes there would be no other possible outcome.

 

[Kylie]

It doesn't take faith to say "I don't know", however, it's unreasonable to refuse to believe something that makes perfect sense.

If a perfect explanation of why we exist in this universe was clearly stated to you, you would have to say "okay I believe that because it makes sense to me". Unfortunately, you'll gladly consider all theories and accept them as long as the term "God" is nowhere near them. All this tells me, is that the term "God" has far more meaning to you than you lead on. To you, its seems, the term "God" is to be ignored completely and replaced with any other theory or concept, whether or not the theory or concept actually makes good sense. If God isn't in the theory then the theory is worth looking at, regardless if in the end the theory turns out to be completely false.

As a Christian who believes in God, this behavior of constantly denying God in favor of other theories that turn out be wrong is frustrating to say the least, but alas God gives me the faith to persevere

But the thing is, there is no definition of God. So, how can we claim that anything is explained if one of the required parts is something that can mean anything?

 

[AV1611VET]

But the thing is, there is no definition of God. So, how can we claim that anything is explained if one of the required parts is something that can mean anything?

QV please:

The existence of God is taken for granted in the Bible. There is nowhere any argument to prove it. He who disbelieves this truth is spoken of as one devoid of understanding (Psalm 14:1).

SOURCE

 

[TLK Valentine]

QV please:SOURCE

"The existence of God is taken for granted in the Bible."

The existence of Captain Ahab is taken for granted in Moby-Dick.

The existence of Dorothy Gale is taken for granted in The Wizard of Oz.

The existence of Rodion Raskolnikov is taken for granted in Crime and Punishment.

It's called "willing suspension of disbelief."