A finely tuned universe that points to a God.

JimFit

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I think you don't understand what the word "tuning" means.

I know what it means....it means THE DEATH OF MATERIALISTIC PHILOSOPHY

There's so much wrong with that sentence, I don't even know where to begin.

Anyway, ignoring the embedded falsehoods, nobody is going to give you a summary of the past 300 years worth of work by the entire scientific aparatus, in a forum post.

How does this answer my question? On Materialism you don't have free will or purpose because everything is determined by Materialism therefor you are not free, you have the same purpose with a rock since everything breaks down to atoms. The Universe as a whole too doesn't have a purpose because there is a mindless machine that creates and destroys Universes without purpose.
 
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JimFit

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Loudmouth

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Creators have intention and intention is part of conscious beings and not mindless processes.

Those are just empty assertions.

Where is the evidence that God created anything?

That it is not due to chance or necessity?


Chance?

So what about the second alternative, that the fine-tuning is due to chance? The problem with this alternative is that the odds against the universe’s being life-permitting are so incomprehensibly great that they cannot be reasonably faced. In order to rescue the alternative of chance, its proponents have therefore been forced to adopt the hypothesis that there exists a sort of World Ensemble or multiverse of randomly ordered universes of which our universe is but a part. Now comes the key move: since observers can exist only in finely tuned worlds, of course we observe our universe to be fine-tuned!


So this explanation of fine-tuning relies on (i) the existence of a specific type of World Ensemble and (ii) an observer self-selection effect. Now this explanation, wholly apart from objections to (i), faces a very formidable objection to (ii), namely, the Boltzmann Brain problem. In order to be observable the entire universe need not be fine-tuned for our existence. Indeed, it is vastly more probable that a random fluctuation of mass-energy would yield a universe dominated by Boltzmann Brain observers than one dominated by ordinary observers like ourselves. In other words, the observer self-selection effect is explanatorily vacuous. As Robin Collins has noted, what needs to be explained is not just intelligent life, but embodied, interactive, intelligent agents like ourselves.Appeal to an observer self-selection effect accomplishes nothing because there’s no reason whatever to think that most observable worlds or the most probable observable worlds are worlds in which that kind of observer exists. Indeed, the opposite appears to be true: most observable worlds will be Boltzmann Brain worlds.
Since we presumably are not Boltzmann Brains, that fact strongly disconfirms a naturalistic World Ensemble or multiverse hypothesis.

I see a lot of assertions, but zero evidence for your claim that chance could not do it.

The proof is that intelligent life exists. This argument relies on our existence.

You are inserting your conclusion in your premises. You are begging the quesiton.


There is, its called Consciousness, do you imply that rocks are alive?

Begging the question.

Since you are an atheist Design doesn't exist for you so its either chance or physical necessity, i destroyed both.

You destroyed nothing. You simply make a lot of empty assertions, and pretend that you have said something.
 
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Loudmouth

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No it was created by a conscious being,

But not by a deity.

Where is your evidence that anything was created by a supernatural deity?

only conscious beings can create, come back when rocks starting to build houses.

Rocks build mountains, and they do so without a consciousness.

Only Minds can create,

Thunderclouds create lightning, and they do so without a mind.

The problem here is that there is no Randomness, something truly random doesn't have a structure. RNA is a structure.

Then why did you mean by a random sequence?

The argument is that the Universe WAS INTENDED to happen and it is not a random mistake. Fine Tuning proves intention and not chance.

How does fine tuning prove intention?

Each and every lottery result is fine tuned according to your argument. The chances of any specific person winning is 1 in 150 million. That means that every lottery has to be fine tuned so that the specifici person who does win actually does win. The lottery has to be guided by an intelligence for a specific result in order to produce that 1 in 150 million chance occurence to occur, according to your logic.

God didn't had to "Fine Tune" anything. He is Omniscience He knew already what the first cause must be to unfold intelligent life, most of these Scientists believe chance or physical necessity, there is no other way to get rid of the Fine Tuning. They could easily refute it but they didn't.

Evidence for any of these claims?
 
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JimFit

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Those are just empty assertions.

Where is the evidence that God created anything?

How can i show you a physical God that creates something when God is not a Physical Being? The Fine Tuning proves intention and i can show you intention. Asking me to show you God is like asking me to show you my Consciousness, i can't show you my Consciousness as an idol but with intention. The Cosmological Constant alone works in a part of a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion times, if you believe that Luck did it you must prove me luck, i can prove you intention, i have intention, chance and luck are delusional argument since you can't show them. Criminologists can show intention without seeing the human commit the crime.


Where is your proof about chance luck randomness and nothingness?


I see a lot of assertions, but zero evidence for your claim that chance could not do it.

Not at all. BVG Theorem destroyed physical necessity and Boltzmann Brain problem attacks Multiverse.

You are inserting your conclusion in your premises. You are begging the quesiton.

I proved that we are here because of Design, you haven't proved that Chance even exists.
I think it can be shown that the probability of a universe capable of supporting ANY form of complex life is one out of infinity (or in comprehensible terms: exactly zero). This sounds like a grandiose claim, but it seems to me to be obvious, once you consider any fine tuned constant. Consider, for example, the fine tuning of gravity. The fine tuning of it is 1 part in 10^40. That is +/- 1 part away from that value would be life prohibiting (at least for any complex life). Though it should be enough to reasonably infer design. That is only looking at how sensitive that value is to change. It doesn’t really address what that value could have been. That is, when you also consider what the range of possible values could have been outside of the life permitting range, then you are looking at the probability that the value you have would even be what it is. There could be possibly be an infinite number of possible values for the gravitational constant.
For example, suppose the gravitational constant was increased +1. The fine-tuning argument would suggest gravity would be so great, that the universe would collapse in on itself before life had any chance to evolve (insomuch as any macro-evolution can occur in the first place). Ok. We added +1 to what the gravitational constant could have been. What if it was +2. Then we don’t need to do the math to know that it would be even more life prohibitive. How about +3? Still no life. Why stop there….How about +4? +5? …..etc… to.+infinity? The same goes in the opposite direction. -1 and the universe can’t form heavy elements, and stars would not form (insomuch as stars could form from a big bang in the first place). If you go -2 from fine tuning, you obviously don’t help the prospects, you logically hurt the prospects of any form of life. This would go all the way that possible range will go (probably to 0). But you still have an infinite number of possibilities.
So, I’d content, if it can be shown that the range of possibilities could be infinite, then it necessarily means that our universe is infinitely fine tuned.
And that’s just looking at one fine tuned constant.
One might attempt to counter act the problem, but let’s be honest. ANY possible way one might think of to increase the range can be met with an infinite number of ways to break it. Breaking is easy…fixing, is not.
Design is the only rational conclusion.

Begging the question.

Is Consciousness a property of the brain?

You destroyed nothing. You simply make a lot of empty assertions, and pretend that you have said something.

blah blah prove me that Chance exists.
 
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JimFit

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But not by a deity.

Where is your evidence that anything was created by a supernatural deity?

Straw man, God is not a supernatural deity, God is a conscious being just like us, the only different you have with God is that He is perfect.
The fact that i look the Universe its proof that God created the Universe, you must prove me that chance did it, no proof of chance? Then proof of necessity, no proof of necessity? The only reasonable conclusion is intention.

Universe without God

<--- Eternal physical chain of cause and effect->Universe->Eternity

DEBUNKED, BVG THeorem proved that the Universe had a beggining even if it was quantum fluctuations.

Multiverse Machine->Our Universe->Eternity/Finite end

DEBUNKED, BVG THeorem proved that the Multiverse had a beggining even if it was quantum fluctuations.

Rocks build mountains, and they do so without a consciousness.

Rocks don't have intention, they are controlled by physical necessity, the Universe couldn't be created by Physical necessity when there was nothing Physical before.

Thunderclouds create lightning, and they do so without a mind.

Thunderclouds don't have intention, they are controlled by physical necessity, the Universe couldn't be created by Physical necessity when there was nothing Physical before.


Then why did you mean by a random sequence?

Show me something random.


How does fine tuning prove intention?

There was nothing random in the process. Am i intended to hit you in the face when i punch the empty air or when i punch you directly in the face? The Constants hit bull's eye in a row without missing.


Each and every lottery result is fine tuned according to your argument. The chances of any specific person winning is 1 in 150 million. That means that every lottery has to be fine tuned so that the specifici person who does win actually does win. The lottery has to be guided by an intelligence for a specific result in order to produce that 1 in 150 million chance occurence to occur, according to your logic.

The lottery machine is tuned to draw only numbers, not letters, not hieroglyphics, not kitties, you must first determine a process to have a deterministic result.

Evidence for any of these claims?

For what exactly? I am still waiting evidence for Chance, Eternal past causes, Nothingness, Randomness, Nihilism and the other beliefs you keep. If you are Omniscience you could cause a tsunami by flipping your fingers in the right time with the right conditions and the right place.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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For what exactly? I am still waiting evidence for Chance, Eternal past causes, Nothingness, Randomness, Nihilism and the other beliefs you keep. If you are Omniscience you could cause a tsunami by flipping your fingers in the right time with the right conditions and the right place.

Ah, there's the problem... you are waiting for people to respond to a strawman.
 
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Mainframes

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Please prove that the universe is fine tuned. It is widely agreed that the settings are just right for life but that is not fine tuning. Tuning is a process by which something is adjusted.

So prove to me that the universe had to be adjusted to its preset settings.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I know what it means....it means THE DEATH OF MATERIALISTIC PHILOSOPHY

I don't think that someone who tunes cars or musical instruments agrees with your definition.

How does this answer my question?

Your question is invalid because it implies falsehoods and assumes them as valid premises.

It's like me asking you "why do you hit your wife since the purple sky is made out of cheese?".


On Materialism you don't have free will or purpose because everything is determined by Materialism therefor you are not free, you have the same purpose with a rock since everything breaks down to atoms. The Universe as a whole too doesn't have a purpose because there is a mindless machine that creates and destroys Universes without purpose.

If you say so. I guess I'm not a materialist then.
 
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DogmaHunter

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What does this have to do with what i said?

You said that atheists believe in a past eternal chain of cause and effect.

I'm an atheist. I don't believe that.
Causality is a phenomena of the universe. The past chain of cause and effect has the same age as the universe. With our current knowledge of cosmology, the universe seems to be 13.7 billion years old.

That's not "past eternal".

He is Eternal.

1. what does that mean?
2. how do you know?
 
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Loudmouth

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How can i show you a physical God that creates something when God is not a Physical Being?

Why can't you back your claims? You are claiming that God created stuff. Where is your evidence?

The Fine Tuning proves intention and i can show you intention. Asking me to show you God is like asking me to show you my Consciousness, i can't show you my Consciousness as an idol but with intention. The Cosmological Constant alone works in a part of a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion times, if you believe that Luck did it you must prove me luck,

Funny how you want everyone else to present evidence, but you refuse to present any yourself.

Where is your evidence that God has created anything?

Where is your proof about chance luck randomness and nothingness?

We don't know how universes are created, how many there are, nor the chances that a universe like ours will appear. All you are doing is inserting God into the gaps in our knowledge. That is an argument from ignorance.

Not at all. BVG Theorem destroyed physical necessity and Boltzmann Brain problem attacks Multiverse.

Yet more science you don't understand.

I proved that we are here because of Design,

All you did was use an argument from ignorance.
 
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Loudmouth

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Straw man, God is not a supernatural deity, God is a conscious being just like us, the only different you have with God is that He is perfect.

Show us evidence that God has created anything.

The fact that i look the Universe its proof that God created the Universe, you must prove me that chance did it, no proof of chance?

You are begging the question by putting your conclusion in the premises.

Then proof of necessity, no proof of necessity? The only reasonable conclusion is intention.

We don't know if there is necessity or not. All you are doing is arguing for a God of the Gaps.

Rocks don't have intention, they are controlled by physical necessity, the Universe couldn't be created by Physical necessity when there was nothing Physical before.

Where is the evidence that the universe could not be created by natural processes?

Also, I have just shown that objects without intention can build.


Thunderclouds don't have intention,

And yet they can create, contrary to your claims.

Show me something random.

The decay of isotopes.


There was nothing random in the process. Am i intended to hit you in the face when i punch the empty air or when i punch you directly in the face? The Constants hit bull's eye in a row without missing.

You are painting the bullseye around the arrow. You have never shown that life was the intended outcome. You are just assuming it.

The lottery machine is tuned to draw only numbers, not letters, not hieroglyphics, not kitties, you must first determine a process to have a deterministic result.

You still can't understand how analogies are used. Why is that?


For what exactly? I am still waiting evidence for Chance, Eternal past causes, Nothingness, Randomness, Nihilism and the other beliefs you keep. If you are Omniscience you could cause a tsunami by flipping your fingers in the right time with the right conditions and the right place.

We are still waiting for you to honestly address the evidence.
 
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Eudaimonist

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We don't know how universes are created, how many there are, nor the chances that a universe like ours will appear. All you are doing is inserting God into the gaps in our knowledge. That is an argument from ignorance.

[/endthread]
 
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JimFit

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Please prove that the universe is fine tuned. It is widely agreed that the settings are just right for life but that is not fine tuning. Tuning is a process by which something is adjusted.

So prove to me that the universe had to be adjusted to its preset settings.

I can adjust something indirectly, Scientists do this all the time in the lab.
 
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