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A finely tuned universe that points to a God.

ThinkForYourself

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Because if you were in the casino and you won in a raw so many times you would wonder if the game is staged.

No I wouldn't. Perhaps the numbers have to be what they are.

Do you have any examples of universes where they are different? If so, do tell.

And even if they could be different, and our universe is a one in a bazillion fluke, it still doesn't prove god. Saying it did is a God of the Gaps fallacy.

Finally, even if there was a creator, what makes you think it is your god? Maybe the Australian aborigines had it right.
 
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JimFit

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No I wouldn't. Perhaps the numbers have to be what they are.

Consider the physical necessity.

This alternative seems extraordinarily implausible because the constants and quantities are independent of the laws of nature. The laws of nature are consistent with a wide range of values for these constants and quantities. For example, the most promising candidate for a Theory of Everything (T.O.E.) to date, super-string theory or M-Theory, allows a “cosmic landscape” of around 10500 different universes governed by the present laws of nature, so that it does nothing to render the observed values of the constants and quantities physically necessary.

Do you have any examples of universes where they are different? If so, do tell.

This is the fallacy from possibility. It’s not rational to believe:

1. x is more probable than y
2. y is possible
3. therefore I believe y


What you have is an argument from ignorance:

1. I don’t know what other universes are like
2. Therefore, we are here by chance
It doesn’t follow.


We IDers have an argument from analogy:

1. like causes spawn like effects
2. intelligence is the only thing that can fine-tune
3. the universe is fine-tuned
4. therefore the universe is the result of intelligence


The only argument the atheists have is a mere wish:

1. like causes spawn like effects
2. intelligence is the only thing that can fine-tune
3. the universe is fine-tuned
4. I wish like causes did not spawn like effects or I wish fine-tuning were the result of chance.
5. therefore, we are here by chance.

Of course is Multiverses are real they would need a Universal Constant that creates Universes.

And even if they could be different, and our universe is a one in a bazillion fluke, it still doesn't prove god. Saying it did is a God of the Gaps fallacy.

Chance

The fine-tuning is due to chance? The problem with this alternative is that the odds against the universe’s being life-permitting are so incomprehensibly great that they cannot be reasonably faced. In order to rescue the alternative of chance, its proponents have therefore been forced to adopt the hypothesis that there exists a sort of World Ensemble or multiverse of randomly ordered universes of which our universe is but a part. Now comes the key move: since observers can exist only in finely tuned worlds, of course we observe our universe to be fine-tuned!


So this explanation of fine-tuning relies on (i) the existence of a specific type of World Ensemble and (ii) an observer self-selection effect. Now this explanation, wholly apart from objections to (i), faces a very formidable objection to (ii), namely, the Boltzmann Brain problem. In order to be observable the entire universe need not be fine-tuned for our existence. Indeed, it is vastly more probable that a random fluctuation of mass-energy would yield a universe dominated by Boltzmann Brain observers than one dominated by ordinary observers like ourselves. In other words, the observer self-selection effect is explanatorily vacuous. As Robin Collins has noted, what needs to be explained is not just intelligent life, but embodied, interactive, intelligent agents like ourselves.Appeal to an observer self-selection effect accomplishes nothing because there’s no reason whatever to think that most observable worlds or the most probable observable worlds are worlds in which that kind of observer exists. Indeed, the opposite appears to be true: most observable worlds will be Boltzmann Brain worlds.
Since we presumably are not Boltzmann Brains, that fact strongly disconfirms a naturalistic World Ensemble or multiverse hypothesis.


Design


It seems, then, that the fine-tuning is not plausibly due to physical necessity or chance. Therefore, we ought to prefer the hypothesis of design unless the design hypothesis can be shown to be just as implausible as its rivals.


Finally, even if there was a creator, what makes you think it is your god? Maybe the Australian aborigines had it right.

There is a Creator because chance and necessity can't create Universes. Just like a Mind created the screen you are looking at a Mind created the Universe you are in. To prove me wrong you must prove the Design argument wrong. God is one because He is Eternal, you can't have God of Christianity and God of Aborigines, you can only have two names for the same God, to describe the same entity, God is not a person, if i name the electrons with different name and the aborigines name the electron with a different name it doesn't mean that there are 2 different electrons or that the electrons will behave differently in Australia. Consider this example when there were no microscopes.

Now prove me that you are a Cosmic zombie without purpose or free will that Nothingness or a Cosmic slot machine spewed you.
 
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RichardParker

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We IDers have an argument from analogy:

1. like causes spawn like effects
2. intelligence is the only thing that can fine-tune
3. the universe is fine-tuned
4. therefore the universe is the result of intelligence

1. Like causes spawn like effects
2. things with physical brains are the only things that can fine-tune
3. The universe is fine-tuned
4. Therefore the universe is the result of something with a physical brain.

Your god has a physical brain.
Of course, I reject premisse 3 as unsupported, but yeah...
Your argument leaves you with a physical being with a physical brain.
Not sure, that you have thought your argument through ;)
 
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JimFit

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1. Like causes spawn like effects
2. things with physical brains are the only things that can fine-tune
3. The universe is fine-tuned
4. Therefore the universe is the result of something with a physical brain.

Your god has a physical brain.
Of course, I reject premisse 3 as unsupported, but yeah...
Your argument leaves you with a physical being with a physical brain.
Not sure, that you have thought your argument through ;)

If Brain = Consciousness then why Reductionism is false?

Hawking has a Mind and does science while he can't even move a muscle.
 
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Eudaimonist

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If Brain = Consciousness then why Reductionism is false?

Whoever said that "Brain = Consciousness" except for yourself? All I remember is someone saying that consciousness is a property of a brain.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Michael

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Whoever said that "Brain = Consciousness" except for yourself? All I remember is someone saying that consciousness is a property of a brain.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Either way you look at it, the macroscopic data doesn't preclude the concept of God no matter which comes first, the structure or the consciousness.

exohuman | Brain Structure Mirrors the Universe

neuron-galaxy1.jpg
 
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RichardParker

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If Brain = Consciousness then why Reductionism is false?

Hawking has a Mind and does science while he can't even move a muscle.

Ha...?
Completly besides the point I've made.
I mean... an absolute, 100% miss!
But I understand you: I've just demonstrated how flawed your argument is, so now you want to change the debate from your flawed argument, to something involving consciousness...

It's no shame to be wrong, you know. It would just be better if you admited when a flaw has been pointed out, instead of trying to sneakily (or in your case: rather obviously) change the subject.
 
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ThinkForYourself

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This is the fallacy from possibility. It’s not rational to believe:

1. x is more probable than y
2. y is possible
3. therefore I believe y

Incorrect. Your logic is flawed.

Nobody knows the probability that the constants are what they are. Maybe they have to be what they are. So premise 1 is incorrect

What you have is an argument from ignorance:

1. I don’t know what other universes are like
2. Therefore, we are here by chance
It doesn’t follow.

Again incorrect. Your logic is flawed.

Nobody knows if other universes exist, so premise 1 is wrong.

We IDers have an argument from analogy:

1. like causes spawn like effects
2. intelligence is the only thing that can fine-tune
3. the universe is fine-tuned
4. therefore the universe is the result of intelligence

Wow, you are batting .000. For the third time your logic is flawed.

We don't know if the universe is fine tuned, so premise 3 is wrong.
 
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ThinkForYourself

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This is the fallacy from possibility. It’s not rational to believe:

1. x is more probable than y
2. y is possible
3. therefore I believe y

Incorrect. Your logic is flawed.

Nobody knows the probability that the constants are what they are. Maybe they have to be what they are. So premise 1 is incorrect

What you have is an argument from ignorance:

1. I don’t know what other universes are like
2. Therefore, we are here by chance
It doesn’t follow.

Again incorrect. That is not my argument.

Nobody knows if other universes exist.

We IDers have an argument from analogy:

1. like causes spawn like effects
2. intelligence is the only thing that can fine-tune
3. the universe is fine-tuned
4. therefore the universe is the result of intelligence

Wow, you are batting .000. For the third time your logic is flawed.

We don't know if the universe is fine tuned, so premise 3 is wrong.
 
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RichardParker

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@ThinkForYourself:

You know what:
Go back, and read his response to my objections. They are the exaclty the same.
And I don't mean "the same content"... I mean, word by word.
He even used the same "What you have hear is an argument from ignorance..." phrasing (even though my argument wasn't even close to an argument from ignorance) as he does here.

You know why his response doesn't match with what you've said?
Because if you go here:

Is fine-tuning a fallacy? | Uncommon Descent

you'll find the EXACT SAME response AGAIN in the comment section.

I don't know where this text originally came from, and originally it might have adressed an actual argument from ignorance... but here it doesn't. It never has.

JimFit isn't interessted in an honest exchange. He doesn't even care if his responses matches the answer you've originally given him, because if he did he couldn't just copy paste it.

There is no point in trying to adress what he said. He won't do the same either, and therefore you are bound to just talk past each other.
Do with that information what you want, I just thought you should know how demonstrable his unwillingness to actually engage is.
 
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JimFit

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Incorrect. Your logic is flawed.

Nobody knows the probability that the constants are what they are. Maybe they have to be what they are. So premise 1 is incorrect

That's the argument from necessity, the laws of the Universe are what they are from necessity in what? Nothingness? If the Physical Universe had a beginning as BVG Theorem proved and the laws demand something physical to exist there would also be something "before" the Universe which gives them necessity! How can the physical laws exist from necessity to something beyond this physical world?



Again incorrect. That is not my argument.

Nobody knows if other universes exist.

Again, debating with a Multiverse is like debating with a Unicorn.



Wow, you are batting .000. For the third time your logic is flawed.

We don't know if the universe is fine tuned, so premise 3 is wrong.

Really? Then why Susskind and other scientists try to solve it? If there was no Fine Tuning why they propose a Theory of Everything? You are in denial because the Fine Tuning destroys your mumbo jumbo unproven chance. If Atheists have a God that is the Slot Machine but as you know Casinos always win.
 
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JimFit

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@ThinkForYourself:

You know what:
Go back, and read his response to my objections. They are the exaclty the same.
And I don't mean "the same content"... I mean, word by word.
He even used the same "What you have hear is an argument from ignorance..." phrasing (even though my argument wasn't even close to an argument from ignorance) as he does here.

You know why his response doesn't match with what you've said?
Because if you go here:

Is fine-tuning a fallacy? | Uncommon Descent

you'll find the EXACT SAME response AGAIN in the comment section.

I don't know where this text originally came from, and originally it might have adressed an actual argument from ignorance... but here it doesn't. It never has.

JimFit isn't interessted in an honest exchange. He doesn't even care if his responses matches the answer you've originally given him, because if he did he couldn't just copy paste it.

There is no point in trying to adress what he said. He won't do the same either, and therefore you are bound to just talk past each other.
Do with that information what you want, I just thought you should know how demonstrable his unwillingness to actually engage is.


Again, the atheists are like robots, they have the same stupid arguments against the Fine Tuning, gamblers fallacy, delusional Universes that floating inside soap bubbles and quantum woo. Therefor i can copy and paste the same answers for the same questions. If something has been proven is that atheists have the same arguments like fundamental Christians.
 
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RichardParker

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Again, the atheists are like robots, they have the same stupid arguments against the Fine Tuning, gamblers fallacy, delusional Universes that floating inside soap bubbles and quantum woo. Therefor i can copy and paste the same answers for the same questions. If something has been proven is that atheists have the same arguments like fundamental Christians.

Nope. You can't.
And this is the major flaw of your... "thinking" (if it can be called that).
You see certain key words (like multiverse, probabilities, etc...) and then just copy paste some answer that in some way adresses vaguely the key-word you've just heard.
If you did, what most people here try to do, which is actually encaging with arguments and read (and espeically TRY TO UNDERSTAND) what they are trying to say... then you would notice how far from actually adressing the arguments your copy-pasted catch-phrases are.

Not to forget: Your catch-phrases have been adressed and many flaws with them have been pointed out by many people before, without you ever giving a proper defence for it.

That's why I'm starting to assume that any discourse with you is pointless, because you don't think along or try to understand, you just repeat mantras.
That's not any sort of appropriate behavior, and it's not usefull for anybody (not even for you... because you simply can't convince anybody if you just leave a trace of failure behind you, that you refuse to clean up).

I, for example, think at this point that your position is indefensible. Because I've posted many objections, and you never replied to them. You've copy pasted some mantras, sure, but since they don't adress my points, I can only assume that you simply CAN'T adress my points, and therefore I have to conclude that your position doesn't hold up.

If you want to actually convince anybody of the validity of your position or defend your position (and if you don't... why are you even here?), then you HAVE to actually talk to people. Adress their points and respond to their positions. NOT just throw around buzz-words and memorized responses.

Maybe you'll learn for the future... although I have my doubts about that, because I hardly doubt that you are even going to read this comment or try to understand it.
 
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Belk

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Nope. You can't.
And this is the major flaw of your... "thinking" (if it can be called that).
You see certain key words (like multiverse, probabilities, etc...) and then just copy paste some answer that in some way adresses vaguely the key-word you've just heard.
If you did, what most people here try to do, which is actually encaging with arguments and read (and espeically TRY TO UNDERSTAND) what they are trying to say... then you would notice how far from actually adressing the arguments your copy-pasted catch-phrases are.

Not to forget: Your catch-phrases have been adressed and many flaws with them have been pointed out by many people before, without you ever giving a proper defence for it.

That's why I'm starting to assume that any discourse with you is pointless, because you don't think along or try to understand, you just repeat mantras.
That's not any sort of appropriate behavior, and it's not usefull for anybody (not even for you... because you simply can't convince anybody if you just leave a trace of failure behind you, that you refuse to clean up).

I, for example, think at this point that your position is indefensible. Because I've posted many objections, and you never replied to them. You've copy pasted some mantras, sure, but since they don't adress my points, I can only assume that you simply CAN'T adress my points, and therefore I have to conclude that your position doesn't hold up.

If you want to actually convince anybody of the validity of your position or defend your position (and if you don't... why are you even here?), then you HAVE to actually talk to people. Adress their points and respond to their positions. NOT just throw around buzz-words and memorized responses.

Maybe you'll learn for the future... although I have my doubts about that, because I hardly doubt that you are even going to read this comment or try to understand it.

I think you mistake his purpose for being here.
 
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RichardParker

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I think you mistake his purpose for being here.

"If you want to actually convince anybody of the validity of your position or defend your position..."

I gave two options...
And I can't see a third one. Either you are trying to defend your position, or your are trying to convince people... or both.
Why else would you be here?
 
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Eudaimonist

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There is quite a difference between saying "Consciousness = Brain" and that consciousness is a property of a brain. That isn't the same claim.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Belk

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"If you want to actually convince anybody of the validity of your position or defend your position..."

I gave two options...
And I can't see a third one. Either you are trying to defend your position, or your are trying to convince people... or both.
Why else would you be here?


To re-enforce to yourself that you are correct and do not need to re-evaluate your position. Some do this openly and honestly. Others ...
 
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Loudmouth

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But somehow you have a "sure winner" on your hands in spite of the fact your inflation entity is "fine tuned" to the tune of 10 to the 100th power!

10 to the 100th power is very debateable to begin with. Second, you are only counting the winners instead of all who played.
 
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