A few things that hold me back from being christian

[Rochir]

1.) If people live good and moral lives and believe in something else, why would God send them to hell? (This is the biggest problem for me. I have a hard time believing in a religion where good people go to hell)

2.) Why does christianity denounce gay love? I mean, if two people love each other, but they're the same sex, why should they be looked down upon for it? What if someone is born gay? How then would it be fair to cast them into eternal damnation for being gay?

Two good and valid points! Lookign around tehse boards, i have found that many people caling themselves Chrisians adhere to those two points which turned you away from Christianity. They do that for me as well. But fortunately there are Christians of various denominations who do not hold those believes about hell, gays and who is right and who is wrong. I tend to associate with those tolerant Christinas who do not want to stuff their believes down my throat. And I thank whichever God there may be that he allows some Christians to be open-minded enough to let them love their fellow (wo)man no matter how s/he lives and loves!

 

[visionary]

1.) If people live good and moral lives and believe in something else, why would God send them to hell? (This is the biggest problem for me. I have a hard time believing in a religion where good people go to hell)

It is a good thing that God is the judge, and looks at the heart.

2.) Why does christianity denounce gay love? I mean, if two people love each other, but they're the same sex, why should they be looked down upon for it? What if someone is born gay? How then would it be fair to cast them into eternal damnation for being gay?

It is a good thing that God is the judge and He judges the heart of the matter.

 

[MinDach]

If you truly want to find God, you need to watch out for false teachers. Read the Bible , then you will know who is telling you the truth.

 

[LilRitt04]

1.) If people live good and moral lives and believe in something else, why would God send them to hell? (This is the biggest problem for me. I have a hard time believing in a religion where good people go to hell)

2.) Why does christianity denounce gay love? I mean, if two people love each other, but they're the same sex, why should they be looked down upon for it? What if someone is born gay? How then would it be fair to cast them into eternal damnation for being gay?

3.) Is it possible when Jesus said things like, "My Father in heaven" or when he referred to himself as the son of God that he just meant he was one of God's children like the entire human race? Is it possible that he was just a prophet and that we twisted his words to make him something he is not?

1. good people dont go to hell because God says "go to hell" they go to hell for there actions. actions speak louder than words. also, some people could claim to be christians but in all actuality they just say it...if you talk the talk but you dont walk the walk...that is a hinderance to everyone around you.

2. you are not born gay first of all...that is a choice you make. you do not pop out of your moms stomach and at the age of three say "mommy im gay or i am a lesbian" no you dont. its something that you choose to do. God created adam and eve not adam and steve. just read Leviticus 18. that is everything that you shouldnt do when it comes to sexual relations.

3. no....Jesus is the son of God.

 

[codenamespivey]

1. good people dont go to hell because God says "go to hell" they go to hell for there actions. actions speak louder than words. also, some people could claim to be christians but in all actuality they just say it...if you talk the talk but you dont walk the walk...that is a hinderance to everyone around you.

2. you are not born gay first of all...that is a choice you make. you do not pop out of your moms stomach and at the age of three say "mommy im gay or i am a lesbian" no you dont. its something that you choose to do. God created adam and eve not adam and steve. just read Leviticus 18. that is everything that you shouldnt do when it comes to sexual relations.

3. no....Jesus is the son of God.

1. So you're saying that actions send people to hell, not God. So, let's say a person lives a decent and moral life, but is not Christian. It doesn't matter that the person leads a good and moral life because by Christian standards that person is going to hell for the sheer fact that they aren't Christian. So, their actions were definitely not what sent them to hell.

2. I read the verse you gave me to read that you said explained it. That verse discussed incest, but nothing about homosexualtiy. Actually, if you could find me a verse where the Bible comes right out and says "Homosexuality is wrong" or that "People of the same sex are not allowed to love each other in a more than platonic way" or that "Gay people should not be allowed to be married in a church or otherwise" that would be great. I might be thinking the Bible actually says something it doesn't. Some of the verses talk about lustful encounters between men, but I don't think the Bible tackles the issue of gay love. I don't think God would denounce love so long as it didn't harm anyone else. So far the verses that I have read about homosexuality just tackle the issue of lustful relations. Furthermore, since you aren't gay, how do you know if people are born gay or not? You say it's a choice. Ok... so you chose to be attracted to the opposite sex? I don't think you do. It is a natural attraction that you were born with. Maybe some people are born naturally attracted to the same sex. I have many gay friends, all of which have been attracted to the same sex since a young age.

 

[SPALATIN]

1. So you're saying that actions send people to hell, not God. So, let's say a person lives a decent and moral life, but is not Christian. It doesn't matter that the person leads a good and moral life because by Christian standards that person is going to hell for the sheer fact that they aren't Christian. So, their actions were definitely not what sent them to hell.

2. I read the verse you gave me to read that you said explained it. That verse discussed incest, but nothing about homosexualtiy. Actually, if you could find me a verse where the Bible comes right out and says "Homosexuality is wrong" or that "People of the same sex are not allowed to love each other in a more than platonic way" or that "Gay people should not be allowed to be married in a church or otherwise" that would be great. I might be thinking the Bible actually says something it doesn't. Some of the verses talk about lustful encounters between men, but I don't think the Bible tackles the issue of gay love. I don't think God would denounce love so long as it didn't harm anyone else. So far the verses that I have read about homosexuality just tackle the issue of lustful relations. Furthermore, since you aren't gay, how do you know if people are born gay or not? You say it's a choice. Ok... so you chose to be attracted to the opposite sex? I don't think you do. It is a natural attraction that you were born with. Maybe some people are born naturally attracted to the same sex. I have many gay friends, all of which have been attracted to the same sex since a young age.

First of all you don't go to hell because of just your actions. One goes to hell for rejecting Christ and his saving work on the Cross.

Regarding Homosexuality I would look into Romans 1:18-32 and in particular verses 26-27.which says

God's Wrath Against Mankind

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

The main point I wanted to get to was that we are all sinners whether we believe God or not. Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

So if the verse above is true than we can say that lack of faith will therefore condemn us since we are all sinners whether we believe or not.

 

[codenamespivey]

First of all you don't go to hell because of just your actions. One goes to hell for rejecting Christ and his saving work on the Cross.

Regarding Homosexuality I would look into Romans 1:18-32 and in particular verses 26-27.which says


The main point I wanted to get to was that we are all sinners whether we believe God or not. Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

So if the verse above is true than we can say that lack of faith will therefore condemn us since we are all sinners whether we believe or not.

The quotes you gave involved lust not love. It does not speak of love but lustful fornication. I understand that most people think it is lack of faith is what sends one to hell. However, the post I was replying to said it was not God, but our actions that send us to hell. I was just exploring that a little.

By the way no offense or disrespect meant to anyone. Sorry if I come off in the wrong way.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Funny. All the gay people I know (including the celibate ones) discovered they were gay. They didn't wake up one morning and say "I'm going to start being attracted to the same sex".

Some of them would give a lot to be able to choose to be straight. It just doesn't happen.

All of which is quite apart from the point of the thread, which is that believing that gay people are evil sinners who all go to Hell is not an essential of Christianity, and therefore needn't be something that keeps someone from it.

 

[LilRitt04]

Codenamespivey,
Read 1 Corinthians 6:9...its says it right there. its wrong. God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Why do I bother?

 

[LilRitt04]

Ok... so you chose to be attracted to the opposite sex? I don't think you do. It is a natural attraction that you were born with. Maybe some people are born naturally attracted to the same sex. I have many gay friends, all of which have been attracted to the same sex since a young age.

How can you be born gay? God created you. God would not create a gay person. Why would he do that? Did he create Adam and Eve to be gay...NO...So there is no way you can be born gay. Maybe as a older child you can start to distinguish it. But to me i dont understand why someone would want to be gay. its nasty

 

[SPALATIN]

The quotes you gave involved lust not love. It does not speak of love but lustful fornication. I understand that most people think it is lack of faith is what sends one to hell. However, the post I was replying to said it was not God, but our actions that send us to hell. I was just exploring that a little.

By the way no offense or disrespect meant to anyone. Sorry if I come off in the wrong way.

I am sorry but any Homosexual relationship is based on lust alone and not true love.

 

[codenamespivey]

Codenamespivey,
Read 1 Corinthians 6:9...its says it right there. its wrong. God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.

The only thing it says is "sodomites", but that refers to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. Anyway, this not the point of the thread.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

How can you be born gay? God created you. God would not create a gay person. Why would he do that? Did he create Adam and Eve to be gay...NO...So there is no way you can be born gay. Maybe as a older child you can start to distinguish it. But to me i dont understand why someone would want to be gay. its nasty

No-one does. As I said, none of the gay people I know wanted to be gay, they just found, as they approached puberty, that whilst their peers found the opposite sex attractive, they were attracted to the same sex.

 

[J-Tron]

codenamespivey,

What do you hope to get from these replies? We could debate ideology all day but I don't know how it would help you. What do hope that we can provide you with?

 

[codenamespivey]

How can you be born gay? God created you. God would not create a gay person. Why would he do that? Did he create Adam and Eve to be gay...NO...So there is no way you can be born gay. Maybe as a older child you can start to distinguish it. But to me i dont understand why someone would want to be gay. its nasty

So God personally impregnates each and every mother? I don't think so. God may have created Adam and Eve, but God does not create people when they are born. People create other people. Therefore, your whole argument is wrong. People can be born gay just as you were born heterosexual. Why would people choose to be gay when they have people like you out there discriminating against them? That makes no sense. When you say why would God create people to be gay... that's like saying, "Why did God create people who are born with mental disorders." God didn't create people that way, they were born and produced by people that way. By the way the whole Adam and Steve line only proves how sophomoric you are. Anyway, we should agree to disagree. I didn't want this thread to become ugly like it has.

 

[codenamespivey]

codenamespivey,

What do you hope to get from these replies? We could debate ideology all day but I don't know how it would help you. What do hope that we can provide you with?

I was simply looking for different ways people explain it in hopes that there would be one that would ring true to me and maybe help me understand. I didn't even plan on replying until I saw some things that truly disgusted me. This thread was not meant to start debate.

 

[codenamespivey]

I am sorry but any Homosexual relationship is based on lust alone and not true love.

That is a truly ignorant thing to say.

 

[JMRE5150]

/MOD HAT ON


These forums are NOT debate forums.

Cease and desist any further debating/attacks on one another, or I will be forced to take action.

Thank You.

/MOD HAT OFF

 

[eirwen]

hello

i just would like to address the whole walking on water thing right now

1) if the premise your working from is that Jesus is the Son of God, he created all water molecules and so its not really tha tbig a leap to believe that he could control those water molecules

if your not working from that premise then Jesus was either a fraud or crazy, in which case i dont know if any other christianly stuff is all that important coz the whole basis of our belief is a lie.

regarding the good vs bad issue (and someone else has probably answered this already, but i will add my two cents if thats ok) i suppose the question is - what constitutes good and bad? there has to be some divine scale of goodness and badness, and if the 'god' who makes it doesnt tell us of this scale then that doesnt seem like a very loving god - also, do the good deeds cancel out the bad?

i myself like christianity's answer - its not 'do what you think is good and hope that in the end its enough' (i wouldnt like that pressure!), the bible gives us way clear guidelines. basically, we are all imperfect - its not really about our level of 'goodness' or 'badness' because the basic thing is we've all said 'God, i can do it better so i'm being my own boss' which is sin. and thats why people who are 'good' can go to hell as well as 'bad' people like murderers etc. its not about racing to be as good as we can to win favour - in fact, we already have access to God's favour without having to be good. thats called 'grace' - and how we get that undeserved favour is through and because of Jesus.

i hope that was helpful - i dont know what your doubts were, but i get doubts about stuff all the time. but when i do, i just remember some facts - that Jesus was a real historical figure, who was crucified (thus being dead), and that there was no way his body was getting out of that tomb without a ressurection

luv e