A few questions...

[ZooMom]

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
You know its occured to me from time to time... if Mary did not have other young ones to preoccupy her, chances are pretty slim she would also not have overlooked her one and only son Jesus, and the fact that he was missing from the crew... something peroccupied her to overlook his presence that day, and if any of you are mothers, well you should also know that your children are the closet thing to your heart... my feeling is that the brothers and sisters mentioned are very much Mary and Joseph's own... no mention of them is made during the filght to Egypt either, so they had to come afterward, neither is any mention of them made at Jesus' birth in Bethlehem. And something peroccupied Mary when the forgot him at the temple, the only thing I know of that can draw a mothers attention away from her oldest child, is a younger one or two as the case may be... just a thought...

In many cases I would agree with that. Children have gone missing however, while their moms stand engrossed in a sale rack at WalMart. If Mary and Joseph were traveling in a caravan of their relatives and friends, I imagine that Mary had her own set of duties to see to re: packing, etc...
Christ was also 12 years old, more than old enough to be 'turned loose' so to speak, and be trusted to remain nearby while amusing Himself or seeing to His own chores. Do you not think it a possibility that no 'children' are mentioned because the children of Joseph were already grown and not 'children' anymore? The Scriptures never mention the 'children' of Mary, and while they do mention 'brothers and sisters' of Jesus, He is always refered to as 'the son of Mary'. Just a few thoughts that I would like to see your take on.

Peace be with you!

 

[Miss Shelby]

You know its occured to me from time to time... if Mary did not have other young ones to preoccupy her, chances are pretty slim she would also not have overlooked her one and only son Jesus, and the fact that he was missing from the crew... something peroccupied her to overlook his presence that day, and if any of you are mothers, well you should also know that your children are the closet thing to your heart... my feeling is that the brothers and sisters mentioned are very much Mary and Joseph's own... no mention of them is made during the filght to Egypt either, so they had to come afterward, neither is any mention of them made at Jesus' birth in Bethlehem. And something peroccupied Mary when the forgot him at the temple, the only thing I know of that can draw a mothers attention away from her oldest child, is a younger one or two as the case may be... just a thought...

I would be able to see your point if it were likely that it was just Mary and Joseph and Jesus on a donkey... but that isn't the way they traveled. They traveled in groups. He was also an adolescent and probably knew when the crew was leaving. Also, we don't know exactly when they discovered that he wasn't there. When I consider this scenario, as a mother I cannot imagine the panic she must have felt. But that was a different day and age.

Michelle

 

[Live4Jesus]

Originally posted by ZooMom
In many cases I would agree with that. Children have gone missing however, while their moms stand engrossed in a sale rack at WalMart. If Mary and Joseph were traveling in a caravan of their relatives and friends, I imagine that Mary had her own set of duties to see to re: packing, etc...
Christ was also 12 years old, more than old enough to be 'turned loose' so to speak, and be trusted to remain nearby while amusing Himself or seeing to His own chores. Do you not think it a possibility that no 'children' are mentioned because the children of Joseph were already grown and not 'children' anymore? The Scriptures never mention the 'children' of Mary, and while they do mention 'brothers and sisters' of Jesus, He is always refered to as 'the son of Mary'. Just a few thoughts that I would like to see your take on.

Peace be with you!

No, because of the way that the Jews were so meticulous in their accounting of geneology i really think it would have been mentioned somewhere... like where the geneology of Joseph is given a couple times, it would have said joseph the father of ''da da da'.. whoever in there..

I've read lot of the different versions of this stuff, books you know, indeed it is a confusing issue... there is some truth to the way the bible denotes 'brethren' as cousins... thing is Mary only had one cousin that we know of, which was elizabeth, and the only son we know of from her is John the baptist...

Here this passage clearly separates 'brethren' from disciples for what its worth:

John 2:12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.

It's not likely Mary was at walmart or anything like that either, even so she wouldn't have overlooked her son without a very very good reason... shopping doesn't cut it for me... though of course one time when shopping for sheets which were pleasantly on sale when kmart went down last year I got so into it I missed picking up my own daughter at school for 20 minutes but still only 20 minutes late I was... and boy oh boy did I drive quickly home!!! pulling my hair as I went...

and actually if she were shopping, she would have gotten something for her only son indeed, and been looking for him to show him... no not shopping...

 

[Andrew]

Just to add something that came to mind for what it's worth:

I believe Joseph obeyed fully what the angel told him to do -- to take Mary as his wife, not just before Jesus was born, but even after that. ie they did what husbands and wives do after their obligations were fulfilled.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

 

[Live4Jesus]

ZooMom, Mary is mentioned as the mother of other children in quite a few places, it's just that all of christianity doesn't accept it so it's left up in the air I guess.

like here:
Matthew 13:55 - Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

that one is pretty direct, stated by the pharisees i think, to show that he came from a normal family. Why would they have mentioned cousins there it would have worked against them no? John the baptist isn't in there if they did intend that.

Matthew 27:56 - Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.

Mark 15:40 - There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Mark 15:47 - And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.

Mark 16:1 - And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Then after the crucifixion, one of those Marys definitly has to be mom,,, she would have been one of the first there obviusly, her son... and she is always mentioned as someones' mother far as i can tell.

I don't know the fact that it's argued is really the only thing that seems to set a precedent far as I can tell, if we all read the scripture without the influence of any churches ideas whatsoever we would all probably come to the conclusion from the info given that Mary was the mother of James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas as well as Jesus because thats what the bible says. I mean if we read it as a true history book we would draw a completely different conclusion than the Mary 'virgin forever' theory because of whats written there.

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by ZooMom
And Mary was definitely one of those.

Most definitely!

Originally posted by ZooMom

And I will maintain that Jesus merely shifted the woman's focus from common attributes to Godly ones, and that this doesn't take the focus from Mary at all, but merely lets us see her in a clearer light. As one who heard the word of God and kept it. Would that the same could be said of me with such conviction.

I think I'm skirting the edges of a debate with my answers to this, so I will say no more on this particular verse. God bless you, Auntie.

Peace!

You're a sweetheart, ZooMom. I wasn't really trying to debate, but explain why non-Catholics seem to underemphasize Mary. We feel like Jesus always points to God, the same way that Mary always points to Jesus.

God bless you too, my beloved ZooMomma!

 

[Andrew]

Good points Live4Jesus, and I wld use your same reasoning for the "until" arguments.

 

[nodrog]

Does that mean that you are open to the idea that Joseph could have been a widower with grown children at the time of his engagement to Mary?

  It's possible.

 

[sklippstein]

ZooMom.......i read through this thread last night, this has been a great thread. Nice to see everyone get along even though opinions differ!

 

[ZooMom]

Yesterday at 11:17 PM Live4Jesus said this in Post #65 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=643444#post643444)

ZooMom, Mary is mentioned as the mother of other children in quite a few places, it's just that all of christianity doesn't accept it so it's left up in the air I guess.

like here:
Matthew 13:55 - Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

that one is pretty direct, stated by the pharisees i think, to show that he came from a normal family. Why would they have mentioned cousins there it would have worked against them no? John the baptist isn't in there if they did intend that.

If the Pharisees thought that Joseph was Jesus' father, wouldn't it be a natural assumption on their part to also call any children of Joseph, older or younger, brothers and sisters of Jesus?

Matthew 27:56 - Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.

Mark 15:40 - There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Mark 15:47 - And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.

Mark 16:1 - And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Then after the crucifixion, one of those Marys definitly has to be mom,,, she would have been one of the first there obviusly, her son... and she is always mentioned as someones' mother far as i can tell.

Do you have any thoughts about who the 'other Mary' might be that Mark references, and if this Mary and 'the mother of James, Joses, etc...' are one and the same? Lots of Mary's in the Scriptures, Mary Magdalene, Mary the wife of Clopas, Mary the mother of Zebedee's sons, Mary the mother of Salome,...It seems that the only way that they could keep them straight was to name them with their primary affiliation. I believe that Jesus was Mary's, and that anytime she is mentioned in the Bible it is direct relation to Him.

[qutoe]I don't know the fact that it's argued is really the only thing that seems to set a precedent far as I can tell, if we all read the scripture without the influence of any churches ideas whatsoever we would all probably come to the conclusion from the info given that Mary was the mother of James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas as well as Jesus because thats what the bible says. I mean if we read it as a true history book we would draw a completely different conclusion than the Mary 'virgin forever' theory because of whats written there.

[/QUOTE]

I can see very well how someone might come to exactly that conclusion.


Peace be with you.

 

[ZooMom]

Today at 12:15 AM Auntie said this in Post #66 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=643586#post643586)

Most definitely!





You're a sweetheart, ZooMom. I wasn't really trying to debate, but explain why non-Catholics seem to underemphasize Mary. We feel like Jesus always points to God, the same way that Mary always points to Jesus.

God bless you too, my beloved ZooMomma!

:o Awww. Thanks! And I think that we are in agreement!


May the peace of our Lord, Jesus Christ, be with you!

 

[ZooMom]

Today at 07:26 AM nodrog said this in Post #68 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=644016#post644016)

  It's possible.

Excellent use of word conservation, Gordon. God bless you.



Peace!

 

[ZooMom]

Today at 08:29 AM sklippstein said this in Post #69 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=644065#post644065)

ZooMom.......i read through this thread last night, this has been a great thread. Nice to see everyone get along even though opinions differ!

Hi, sklipp! Thanks! I think it's going very well.





Peace!

 

[Live4Jesus]

Yesterday at 06:57 AM Andrew said this in Post #67 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=643782#post643782)

Good points Live4Jesus, and I wld use your same reasoning for the "until" arguments.

Yup.

 

[Live4Jesus]

Yesterday at 05:15 AM Auntie said this in Post #66 I wasn't really trying to debate, but explain why non-Catholics seem to underemphasize Mary. We feel like Jesus always points to God, the same way that Mary always points to Jesus.

I'm not sure other denoms actually 'underemphasize' Mary, it just that we don't overemphasize her either... Mary is Jesus' mother... I am pretty sure even Gabriel said all generations would call her blessed, and she is... she was chosen of God to be the earthly mother of his son... but their have been other people chosen of God who also performed mighty feats for God, Moses for instance... there have been quiet a few.

God can work his miracles out of a rock... in this case he needed a very normal and very clean young lady, whom Mary proved to be. Likewise her cousin Elizabeth was also chosen at the same time, in the same way, to bear another child of God, John. We all know from the bible that Elizabeth was way past the age of childbearing so her child is also a miracle birth... from God himself.

We do think Mary was special, and quite... she just shouldn't be 'served' in competition with God... shrines etc shouldn't be built to her all that, its not good...

Notice how when Peter and the others saw the spirit of Moses and Elijah with Jesus in the mount of Olives... they wanted to buld a shrine... it never happened, Jesus didn't want it... Jesus said, worhip God pray to your Father in heaven. he never mixed anything with it, never.

I think most of us non-caths feel we should use Jesus' words and examples as the first precedent, though later apostles may have led lives that are worthy of example, they still are not Jesus, who singularly had/has a extra special relationship with our Father in heaven.

There isn't a single note in the bible stating mary had anything near that relationship, only odd items that would rather deter from it... like when she came with Jesus' brothers to try to stop him from preaching... and other places. Its clear from a few passages that even she did not fully understand Him until after the resurrection... for a reason, she did not know God like He did. Her salvation was dependent upon her son, God's son Jesus. Just like ours is today... so because of all that building shrines, sayng prayers too, making requests of, her soul... may not be entirely appropiate.

But we do respect her very much.

 

[MikeMcK]

If I understand the rules correctly, I am allowed to post questions here not intended for debate? Yes? If I am mistaken, Moderators, please move this to the appropriate area. Thanks.

I had asked a few questions in another thread and since no-one there seems inclined to answer them, I was wondering if anyone else would like to talk with me about them. I have absolutely no intention of arguing or debating this issue, I really am just interested in sincere, honest reflections from my non-Catholic brothers and sisters. Ok, here goes.


1) How old do Protestants think that Mary was at the time of the Annunciation, and why?

Don't know.

2)How old do you think Joseph was at the time of his engagement to Mary, and why?

Don't know.

3)Do you believe that Mary was Joseph's first wife, and why?

Don't know. I assume so since the Bible doesn't mention a previous wife.

4)Do you believe that the brothers and sisters of Christ mentioned in the Scriptures were younger than Christ, and why?

If Mary was a virgin when Christ was concieved, then they would have to be younger.

The Peace of Christ be with you all!

And with you, also.