A Few Questions For The Calvinist To Ponder

[woobadooba]

The Bible informs us that we should pray, and intercede "for all men" 1Tim. 2:1

"all men" within this context is referring to humankind in general.

If Christ didn't die for all humankind, what sense is there in praying and interceding for all humankind?

The Bible also says that God "desires all men to be saved" 1Tim. 2:4

If God willed some to be saved and others to be damned, what sense is there in Him desiring for "all men to be saved"?

The Bible also says that Jesus "gave Himself as a ransom for all" 1Tim. 2:6

Now, are we to believe the Apostle Paul here, or the Calvinist who says that Jesus didn't give His life as a ransom for all humankind?

And here comes the best one yet!

The Bible says, "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." 1Tim. 4:10

Hmmm...

This verse suggests that Jesus is the Savior of all humankind, but that only those who believe will be saved!

In other words...

He died for all humankind, meaning all humankind could be saved, but only those who believe will be saved!

It appears that the Calvinist is clearly denying what the Bible has to say about the issue of salvation!

 

[PaladinValer]

I would have to agree with the OP.

Having now read a chunk of the Institutes, I find that the theology is wanting.

 

[Perceivence]

For the first three quotations, they'll tell you something about "all" there referring to "all without distinction" and not "all without exception", which is to say that it means he wants us to pray for and He desires the salvation of all types of people rather than every single person.

I don't remember what they say for the last verse.

(And your quotations are from 1st Timothy, not 2nd Timothy as you have in your post.)

 

[woobadooba]

For the first three quotations, they'll tell you something about "all" there referring to "all without distinction" and not "all without exception", which is to say that it means he wants us to pray for and He desires the salvation of all types of people rather than every single person.

I don't remember what they say for the last verse.

(And your quotations are from 1st Timothy, not 2nd Timothy as you have in your post.)

But don't they always have an answer?

 

[JRP]

For the first three quotations, they'll tell you something about "all" there referring to "all without distinction" and not "all without exception", which is to say that it means he wants us to pray for and He desires the salvation of all types of people rather than every single person.

I don't remember what they say for the last verse.

(And your quotations are from 1st Timothy, not 2nd Timothy as you have in your post.)

Well then... since some of you have us Calvinists all figured out, then what is the purpose of starting another long drawn out thread that basically resembles a dog chasing his own tail?

 

[woobadooba]

Well then... since some of you have us Calvinists all figured out, then what is the purpose of starting another long drawn out thread that basically resembles a dog chasing his own tail?

The purpose of the thread isn't to convince the Calvinist of the truth, but to expose his erroneous claims regarding salvation.


The reason why I'm saying that it isn't to convince the Calvinist of the truth, is because I know from experience that trying to get a Calvinist to agree that Jesus died for all humankind is like trying to get a JW to admit that Jesus is God.

I've never seen it happen before. But if it does, that will be great. However, I'm not going to hold my breath.

 

[Jipsah]

The Bible informs us that we should pray, and intercede "for all men" 2Tim. 2:1

"all men" within this context is referring to humankind in general. If Christ didn't die for all humankind, what sense is there in praying and interceding for all humankind?

Because God told us to seems a pretty respectable reason to me. Not good enough for an Arminian, though, huh?

If God willed some to be saved and others to be damned, what sense is there in Him desiring for "all men to be saved"?

Calvinists don't believe that God willed anyone to be damned. Those who are lost are so through the exercise of their own exalted Free Will. Those who are not lost are saved through the grace and mercy of God, and for absolutely no other reason.

The Bible also says that Jesus "gave Himself as a ransom for all" 2Tim. 2:6

Do you believe that it was ineffective in most cases?

Now, are we to believe the Apostle Paul here, or the Calvinist who says that Jesus didn't give His life as a ransom for all humankind?

I think what we ought to do is turn the fire hoses on the Arminian who poses questions like that. But I can play the game too.


How about this: Who are we to believe, the Arminian who tells us that God hasn't predestined anyone, that we're all saved by correctly "accepting Christ", or St. Paul, who tells us that we were predestined from before the foundation of the world, and that salvation is a gift from God and not the result of anything we've done. Which would you choose?

This verse suggests that Jesus is the Savior of all humankind, but that only those who believe will be saved!

Yeah, it's all about us again, isn't it? Poor God, He'd like for us all to be saved, but there's just nothing He can do about it. His hands are tied, and if we're to be saved, and the sacrifice of our Lord not to come to nothing, then it's up to us to exercise our near-omnipotent Free Will to get ourselves saved.

He died for all humankind, meaning all humankind could be saved, but only those who believe will be saved!

Yeah, He died for everyone, but for most folks it just didn't do 'em any good. A shame, that.

It appears that the Calvinist is clearly denying what the Bible has to say about the issue of salvation!

It appears to me that the Arminian hasn't even the vaguest clue what he's babbling about, which is probably why he's an Arminian in the first place (hey, he probably doesn't even realize he is one!).

 

[JRP]

The purpose of the thread isn't to convince the Calvinist of the truth, but to expose his erroneous logic, and bad exegesis.

Oh ... since you put it that way... Sounds like a very loving endeavor indeed. In my few short days here I've come to realize that all boards are the same - low on friendly, respectful discussion and high on attacking the perceived infidel. So you're SDA? You of all people should know better. I'm done. Goodbye.

 

[Jipsah]

The purpose of the thread isn't to convince the Calvinist of the truth

That's good, because there wasn't any there.

but to expose his erroneous logic, and bad exegesis.

Yeah, how silly of us to think that it isn't what we do that results in our salvation. After all, St. Paul told us "For by your Free Will are you saved, and and by your faith, and that all by yourself. You did it your own self, and God couldn't have done anything to save if you if you hadn't, so you can do a bit of bragging if you'd like. You've earned it." Yeah, that's from the letter to the Ephesians in the Arminian Free-Willy We-Done-It-Our-Own-Selves Version, isn't it? The one with the all occurences of the word "predestined" surgically removed for your protection?

 

[woobadooba]

because God told us too seems a prety respectable reason to me.

But it is utterly unreasonable to command someone to pray for the salvation of one who is indefinitely lost.

Moreover, there is no sense in praying for anyone's salvation when the matter has already been decided by God.

Calvinists don't believe that God willed anyone to be damned. Those who are lost are so through the exercise of their own exalted free will. Those who are not lost are saved through the grace and mercy of God, and for absolutely no other reason.

Apparently you haven't read the Institutes.

Do you believe that it was ineffective in most cases?

Jesus didn't die to MAKE people saved, but to give people a CHOICE to be saved! So if anyone is lost that doesn't mean His sacrifice was ineffective.

I think what we ought to do is turn the fire hoses on the Arminian who poses questions like that. But I can play thye game too.
How about this: Who are we to believe, the Arminian who tells us that God hasn't predestined anyone, that we're all saved by correctly "accepting Christ", or St. Paul, who tells us that we were predestined from before the foundation of the world, and that salvation is a gift from God and not the result of anything we've done. Which would you choose?

You are taking a lot of passages out of context, but this is common practice for Calvinists. I choose free-will, by the way. Also, I am not an Arminian.

Yeah, it's all about us again, isn't it? Poor God, He'd like for us all to be saved, but there's just nothing He can do about it. His hands are tied, and if we're to be saved, and the sacrifice of our Lord not to come to nothing, then it's up to us to exercise our near-omnipotent Free Will to get ourselves saved.

He did everything that had to be done in that He gave you free-will. If you choose not to be saved, that doesn't lessen God's omnipotence in any way. And it is utterly unreasonable to think that it does. If anything, it exalts the omnipotence of God because it shows that He doesn't fear the choices that man makes.

 

[woobadooba]

Oh ... since you put it that way... Sounds like a very loving endeavor indeed. In my few short days here I've come to realize that all boards are the same - low on friendly, respectful discussion and high on attacking the perceived infidel. So you're SDA? You of all people should know better. I'm done. Goodbye.

Hey, I just want the truth. That is the bottom line. And when I want the truth I go to the scriptures, not the Institutes.

 

[Perceivence]

Well then... since some of you have us Calvinists all figured out, then what is the purpose of starting another long drawn out thread that basically resembles a dog chasing his own tail?

...I didn't start the thread and I couldn't give all the Calvinist responses....

 

[Jipsah]

But it is utterly unreasonable to command someone to pray for the salvation of one who is indefinately lost.

Is this where you give us the hyper-Arminian "God not only can't save anyone who doesn't choose door number 3, He doesn't even know who's gonna be saved!" schtick? That's where it always ends up, isn't it? Anything else just wouldn't be fair!

Moreover, there is no sense in praying for anyon'es salvation whe the matter has already been decided by God.

And if God already knows, like those nasty Calvinists and others who think that God is omniscient believe, then praying just wouldn't do a bit of good, now would it? No point at all. So God must not know! That's the logical end of Arminianism - Deity Lite.

Apparanetly you haven't read the Institutes.

Or have read more than just the pull quotes that Arminians use to try and make their spurious arguments.

Jesus didn't die to MAKE people saved, but to give people a CHOICE to be saved!

Yep, all up to us. "For by Free Will are we saved...". Our Lord just laid it on the table and walked off, nothing more He can do, poor soul.

So if anyone is lost that doesn't mean His sacrifice was ineffective.

I thought you said that God wanted everyone to be saved? If our Lord's sacrifice didn't make that happen, then it was ineffective, rendered useless by the Free Will of those who decide, "Nah, I don't think so...".

You are taking a lot of passages out of context, but this is common practice for Calvinists.

The standard practice amongst Arminians is to try and slither around the myriad of Scriptures that blow holes in their smarmy "man is the final arbiter" soteriology by invoking "context" that has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue. As though the "context" could change St. Paul's assertions that we've been been predestined from before the foundation of the world. ("Oh, but in the context, that means that we weren't predestined from before the foundation of the world..." Right.)

I choose free-will

Yeah, you don't really need God to save you if you have the Free Will to do it your own self.

Also, I am not an Armenian.

BWAHAHAHAHA! What, are you just trying to pass, or what? Or do you really not know what an Arminian is?

 

[Jipsah]

Being SDA

Oh, cool, not only are you saved by your own Free Will, but you do it by keeping the Law. Yeah, them old Pharisees and folks couldn't do it, but y'all can.

 

[woobadooba]

Is this where you give us the hyper-Arminian "God not only can't save anyone who doesn't choose door number 3, He doesn't even know who's gonna be saved!" schtick? That's where it always ends up, isn't it? Anything else just wouldn't be fair!

And if God already knows, like those nasty Calvinists and others who think that God is omniscient believe, then praying just wouldn't do a bit of good, now would it? No point at all. So God must not know! That's the logical end of Arminianism - Deity Lite.

Or have read more than just the pull quotes that Arminians use to try and make their spurious arguments.

Yep, all up to us. "For by Free Will are we saved...". Our Lord just laid it on the table and walked off, nothing more He can do, poor soul.

I thought you said that God wanted everyone to be saved? If our Lord's sacrifice didn't make that happen, then it was ineffective, rendered useless by the Free Will of those who decide, "Nah, I don't think so...".

The standard practice amongst Arminians is to try and slither around the myriad of Scriptures that blow holes in their smarmy "man is the final arbiter" soteriology by invoking "context" that has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue. As though the "context" could change St. Paul's assertions that we've been been predestined from before the foundation of the world. ("Oh, but in the context, that means that we weren't predestined from before the foundation of the world..." Right.)

Yeah, you don't really need God to save you if you have the Free Will to do it your own self.

BWAHAHAHAHA! What, are you just trying to pass, or what? Or do you really not know what an Arminian is?

Just let me know when you want to address the scriptural passages that I quoted, and the arguments that were raised in reference to them.

 

[Perceivence]

Calvinists don't believe that God willed anyone to be damned. Those who are lost are so through the exercise of their own exalted Free Will. Those who are not lost are saved through the grace and mercy of God, and for absolutely no other reason.

Those lost would be despite their Free Will, exalted or not, since no action or choice they could ever make freely or otherwise could save them.

Do you believe that it was ineffective in most cases?

It fulfills its purpose: it washes clean the sins of those who believe (Rom 3: 25).

 

[Jipsah]

Those lost would be despite their Free Will

Nope, nice try, though. It's through the exercise of the Free Will so beloved of Armininians that we commit the sins that condemn us. If you don't want to be condemned for your sins, then simply use your Free Will to forbear from sinning. Then you'll get to Heaven on merit.

Let us know how that turns out.

, exalted or not, since no action or choice they could ever make freely or otherwise could save them.

Not true at all. All you gots to do is leave off sinning.

The rest of us will have to trust to God's grace and mercy, and nothing else.

 

[Jipsah]

Just let me know when you want to address the scriptural passages that I quoted, and the arguments that were raised in reference to them.

I've already dusted your specious "arguments", but I'll understand if you want to act as though it hadn't happened.

 

[Perceivence]

Nope, nice try, though. It's through the exercise of the Free Will so beloved of Armininians that we commit the sins that condemn us. If you don't want to be condemned for your sins, then simply use your Free Will to forbear from sinning. Then you'll get to Heaven on merit.

Let us know how that turns out.

...

You just supported my point.

In the Calvinist model, absolutely no exercise of free will can result in a person being saved if God has not chosen him (which is what you're apparently getting at). So you can't blame man's perdition on his free will in the Calvinist model.

Not true at all. All you gots to do is leave off sinning.

The rest of us will have to trust to God's grace and mercy, and nothing else.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Do you think Arminians think we don't need God's grace and mercy to be saved?

 

[WarrenW]

The Bible informs us that we should pray, and intercede "for all men" 1Tim. 2:1

If you reject Calvinism then why do you pray for someone's salvation? He is not saved because he rejected God. What do you ask God for when you pray? It seems to me that when you pray you are asking God to do something which assumes that God will be active in bringing the person to salvation.