A few questions for Protestants

[timothyu]

Your interpretations of those Scriptures are rather "broad", to say the least.

Nothing broad about them. Again as the Bible teaches from end to end, the ways of man are not the ways of God. The world we have built in our own image runs contrary to the ways of the Kingdom. We're all about serving self while the Kingdom is about serving others as we would hope they would do for us..

 

[renniks]

As I have said before, the Catholic Church is not a denomination. All Christians are members, those who have split off with their own views simply lack the fullness of the faith.

What about the orthodox?

 

[renniks]

In that case, where does one find the "all truth" that Jesus said the Holy Spirit would lead believers to (John 16:13)?


Name one church that is sinless.

Thanks for agreeing that no sect holds all truth.

 

[Buzzard3]

Paul appeals to Christians to live in a way that reflects the grace we've been given by God and to be mature instead of being swayed by every teaching they hear.

Eph 4:11-16 says Christ gave "apostles ... prophets ... evangelists .. pastors and teachers" - ie, the CHURCH - "to equip the saints ... until we all attain ... the knowledge of the Son of God", so that we are not deceived by false doctrines like clueless children.

The whole gist of that passage is that we rely on the CHURCH to provide correct and spiritually-mature doctrine.

In life, this is going to mean that at times we disagree with people, even people in authority about doctrine

Which verse in Eph 4 says that?

 

[Buzzard3]

Thanks for agreeing that no sect holds all truth.

You didn't answer my question, so I'll try again:

Where does one find the "all truth" that Jesus said the Holy Spirit would lead believers to (John 16:13)?

 

[renniks]

You didn't answer my question, so I'll try again:

Where does one find the "all truth" that Jesus said the Holy Spirit would lead believers to (John 16:13)?

From the Holy Spirit. As the verse says.
"the Spirit of truth, is come,"

 

[renniks]

The whole gist of that passage is that we rely on the CHURCH to provide correct and spiritually-mature doctrine.

Right and the church is the body of believers.... in places like China you're much better off gathering with true believers in a basement then going to some ritualistic church that doesn't teach the truth.

 

[YeshuaFan]

No. For one thing, there was a lot to come before Peter even reached Rome. He first was to give that miraculous speech on Pentecost that led to the first real wave of converts to the new church, he was to be an important part of the council at Jerusalem hosted by James, and Peter later on was to be the bishop of Antioch before ever doing anything in Rome.

He never was the first Pope, as there was no Catholic Church as defined by the Roman one back then

 

[YeshuaFan]

Oh good grief! No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying no denomination is the one true church. The one true church is all real believers regardless of where they gather. In a church pew or a boat or a chicken coop, or a basement. It makes no difference. The church isn't a denomination.

So true, as the true Church of Christ would be all of the redeemed of the Lord Jesus saved throughout history!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Interesting that Jesus gave Simon the same name that the NT gives to Jesus - "rock".

Except that Jesus is a big rock, a mountain, while peter is a pebble!

 

[YeshuaFan]

What about the orthodox?

There is a Catholic Church, but NOT the One of Rome, as it is the Body of Christ, all of the redeemed!
There are saved Orthodox, but they , like Rome, teach another Gospel!

 

[Albion]

He never was the first Pope, as there was no Catholic Church as defined by the Roman one back then

Yes, but saying that (and only that) doesn't conflict with the claims made by the RCC for Peter.

 

[timothyu]

Thanks for agreeing that no sect holds all truth.

Agreed. Truth is in His words we all have in scripture (for those allowed to read them and hopefully free from ulterior coaching Matthew 23:13). God would never give the complete truth to any one sect of Christianity for the same reasons that He scattered the people at Babel. He also expects us to share so everyone having a degree of truth should knowing His expectations, understand we must work together rather than against one another. Only the adversary benefits from division and pride and self proclaimed power. But then again a religion whose 'government' sold out at one point to the world of the Adversary in accepting the power here that Jesus would not, can't be expected to be a good role model either.

 

[eleos1954]

The power to forgive sins was eventually given to all of the Apostles. Simon was renamed as Rock (Peter) and Jesus said he would build His Church upon Rock. Only Peter, not any of the other Apostles, was given the keys to the kingdom.

no man can forgive sins unto salvation .... Jesus is our high priest .... Jesus and ONLY Jesus can forgive sins unto salvation.

Jesus is the rock .... the church is built on Him.

Psalm 18:2
The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

Psalm 144:1
Of David. Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle;

1 Samuel 2:2

“There is none holy like the Lord; there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.

2 Samuel 22:32

“For who is God, but the Lord? And who is a rock, except our God?

Psalm 95:1

Oh come, let us sing to the Lord; let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation!

1 Corinthians 10:4
And all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

Psalm 89:26

He shall cry to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’

Romans 10:9

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

 

[Albion]

There's no reason to try to argue that Peter isn't whom Jesus was referring to with that "rock" reference, and certainly not in order to deny that Jesus was creating some sort of favored denomination with Popes, etc. in so doing.

Peter was one of the most important Apostles and close to Christ, someone he was counting on, but Peter was important in various ways OTHER THAN the mythical founding of a Papacy.

 

[Valletta]

There's no reason to try to argue that Peter isn't whom Jesus was referring to with that "rock" reference, and certainly not in order to deny that Jesus was creating some sort of favored denomination with Popes, etc. in so doing.

Peter was one of the most important Apostles and close to Christ, someone he was counting on, but Peter was important in various ways OTHER THAN the mythical founding of a Papacy.

Jesus was doing something different when he renamed Simon as Rock and gave the keys to the kingdom to Rock and not to any of the other Apostles. That's the Word of God, it is no myth.

 

[Valletta]

no man can forgive sins unto salvation .... Jesus is our high priest .... Jesus and ONLY Jesus can forgive sins unto salvation.

Jesus is the rock .... the church is built on Him.

Psalm 18:2
The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

Psalm 144:1
Of David. Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle;

1 Samuel 2:2

“There is none holy like the Lord; there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.

2 Samuel 22:32

“For who is God, but the Lord? And who is a rock, except our God?

Psalm 95:1

Oh come, let us sing to the Lord; let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation!

1 Corinthians 10:4
And all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

Psalm 89:26

He shall cry to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’

Romans 10:9

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

Jesus can give power to whom ever he wishes, and has, including the Apostles:
Luke 9
Then Jesus a]">[a] called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal. 3 He said to them, “Take nothing for your journey, no staff, nor bag, nor bread, nor money—not even an extra tunic. 4 Whatever house you enter, stay there, and leave from there. 5 Wherever they do not welcome you, as you are leaving that town shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.” 6 They departed and went through the villages, bringing the good news and curing diseases everywhere.

 

[Albion]

Jesus was doing something different when he renamed Simon as Rock and gave the keys to the kingdom to Rock and not to any of the other Apostles. That's the Word of God, it is no myth.

No one said the word of God is a myth. Not me, anyway.

But it is important to know what Jesus was referring to in that exchange with Peter...and it definitely was not about any favored denomination that might form hundreds of years later or about Peter being some sort of ruler of the universal church. But this has already been explained.

 

[timothyu]

Jesus was doing something different when he renamed Simon as Rock and gave the keys to the kingdom to Rock and not to any of the other Apostles. That's the Word of God, it is no myth.

Jesus was calling Simon truth (Peter being a part of the foundation) based on his repeating the truth of the Father in showing him who Jesus was. The foundation/rock was truth. The keys were truths against which those wishing to enter the Kingdom would be measured against and found worthy or lacking.

The same truth Jesus said He would base the movement of people simply living life in the ways of truth of the Father (His church). No false truths of institutions of man, governments of man, dictates of man. Just unmanipulated truth from the Father showing how to live in the ways of the Kingdom and not the backwards ways of man. The very reason the world would hate them... because they were different. Yet the Gentile religion ended up incorporating all and turning back to the world and being a government and power just like all the rest of man's worthless accomplishments.

Jesus came as a man. The adversary showed up as an institution.

 

[Valletta]

Then I wonder who runs that big church in my city which has the "ST. MARY'S ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH" sign out front?

No one said the word of God is a myth. Not me, anyway.

But it is important to know what Jesus was referring to in that exchange with Peter...and it definitely was not about any favored denomination that might form hundreds of years later or about Peter being some sort of ruler of the universal church. But this has already been explained.

Our Church is the Catholic Church, the Roman rite is the most common of the various Catholic rites. Before attending another rite if I had the time I would study that particular liturgy.
As in Isaiah, the keys to the kingdom are a sign that the prime minister's word rules when the king is absent. So says the Word of God.