A few questions for Protestants

[Buzzard3]

Peter was the nickname Jesus gave to him which meant pebble, like calling him a chip off the ol' block (rock). A small truth about a larger truth.

Interesting that Jesus gave Simon the same name that the NT gives to Jesus - "rock".

 

[Buzzard3]

So who interpreted Jesus' words to the lowest of the low so they could understand at the time He spoke them.

The crowds did not always understand everything Jesus said. John 6 is a good example - some of his disciples walked away because they thought he was talking rubbish. Even the apostles sometimes didn't initially know what Jesus was talking about.

 

[Buzzard3]

Two points. The Pope was modelled after Caesar and certainly wasn't part of the State church at the time of it's formation. (see post 733 ) Second, the definition of church seems to be confused by those who expect institution rather than movement of people living in the ways of the Kingdom.

Which Scripture says the Church's structure must not resemble any earthly government?

 

[timothyu]

Interesting that Jesus gave Simon the same name that the NT gives to Jesus - "rock".

Not really.. it just means truth in context with what Jesus was saying. Upon the foundation of truth from God and not from man, the people will live their way or life. Hence The Way.

 

[timothyu]

Which Scripture says the Church's structure must not resemble any earthly government?

The entire Bible from front to back repeats over and over we are not to put our will ahead of the will of God. Doing so pursues self interest and there isn't a government either secular or religious that does not seek gain at the expense of others from pursuing self interest.

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

 

[Buzzard3]

Whatever the "Keys" were that Jesus mentioned there, could not be the Church of Rome, as that did not even exist until centuries later!

The "Church of Rome" is the exact same Church that the apostles set up. It was initially set up in Jerusalem, but it later moved HQ to Rome.

 

[Valletta]

That was decided long before the 4th century. The fourth century only saw the official seal of approval given it by the new State church and even only after they tried to remove two which were still ultimately kept. Governments of man like to do things like that.

You are mistaken.
The Catholic Church process of choosing the 73 books of the Bible spanned centuries. Saint Athanasius is credited with the first Biblical canon (NT) in 367 A.D. containing the same books in the same order we use today.

 

[Buzzard3]

Already answered. No denomination is 100 percent correct.

In that case, where does one find the "all truth" that Jesus said the Holy Spirit would lead believers to (John 16:13)?

You are trying to split hairs as if your church hasn't flip flopped about over the centurys in what they supported. Do we really have to bring up all the sins of the RCC?

Name one church that is sinless.

 

[timothyu]

The crowds did not always understand everything Jesus said. John 6 is a good example - some of his disciples walked away because they thought he was talking rubbish. Even the apostles sometimes didn't initially know what Jesus was talking about.

Exactly. And so it remains. No self appointed mortal can fill that gap as truth does not come from man but only from the Father which we already have in the words of Jesus. Those of the Kingdom will understand.

However as you said, 'some' did not understand at the time but oddly enough the slaves, servants, women, the oppressed and yes the Apostles, understood the good news of the Kingdom right away, and understood they had been set free from the oppression of this world and the death sentence imposed upon man.. What the Apostles and others, just like the Jews who sent Him to the X, didn't fathom so clearly was that it wouldn't be a physical event in their lifetime.

 

[Buzzard3]

well then .... the power of the Holy Spirit was not just for Peter.

... but it to only to Peter that Jesus gave the "keys to the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 16:19) and it was only Peter to whom Jesus gave the name "rock".

 

[timothyu]

You are mistaken.
The Catholic Church process of choosing the 73 books of the Bible spanned centuries.

That's what I said.. before the official seal of approval was given.

 

[Buzzard3]

The entire Bible from front to back repeats over and over we are not to put our will ahead of the will of God. Doing so pursues self interest and there isn't a government either secular or religious that does not seek gain at the expense of others from pursuing self interest.

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

In other words, you can't find a Scripture that says the Church's structure must not resemble any earthly government.

 

[timothyu]

In other words, you can't find a Scripture that says the Church's structure must not resemble any earthly government.

I gave four

 

[Buzzard3]

Exactly. And so it remains. No self appointed mortal can fill that gap as truth does not come from man but only from the Father which we already have in the words of Jesus.

In that case, you've just contradicted Jesus, who said the Holy Spirit would led us to "all truth" (John 16:13).

Those of the Kingdom will understand.

... unlike those who belong to the kingdom of self-delusion and error.

 

[Buzzard3]

That was decided long before the 4th century. The fourth century only saw the official seal of approval given it by the new State church and even only after they tried to remove two which were still ultimately kept. Governments of man like to do things like that.

Oh, so you're admitting the Catholic Church gave the canon of the Bible "the official seal of approval". Interesting.

 

[timothyu]

In that case, you've just contradicted Jesus, who said the Holy Spirit would led us to "all truth" (John 16:13).

When Jesus said the Comforter was coming it was for all those already of the kingdom. A guiding wind to keep them on the path they were already on and help prevent them falling to the wayside. The choice would still be theirs however. They would fully understand and be able to teach His only Gospel. Somewhere along the line however, the Gospel of the Kingdom got tossed aside.

 

[timothyu]

Oh, so you're admitting the Catholic Church gave the canon of the Bible "the official seal of approval". Interesting.

Call the State church what you may.

 

[Buzzard3]

I gave four

Your interpretations of those Scriptures are rather "broad", to say the least.

 

[Buzzard3]

When Jesus said the Comforter was coming it was for all those already of the kingdom. A guiding wind to keep them on the path they were already on and help prevent them falling to the wayside. The choice would still be theirs however. They would fully understand and be able to teach His only Gospel. Somewhere the Gospel of the Kingdom got tossed aside.

Not only do you contradict John 16:13, you contradict Matt 18-19 as well, where Jesus said "the gates of hell would not prevail against" his Church.

 

[coffee4u]

... unlike those who belong to the kingdom of self-delusion and error.

1 Corinthians 13 1
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

What is interesting is the amount of vitriol you have towards protestants.
If that is how you hope to gather converts good luck with that.