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A few questions for Protestants

Buzzard3

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On the contrary, the explanation is in the very same sentence. See the pink wording above, which clearly identifies "the household of God" as being the pillar and foundation of the truth.

:)
So which Protestant "household of God" teaches the truth? The Baptists? The Methodists? The Lutherans? The Anglicans? None of these, but someone else? Who, exactly?
 
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BBAS 64

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Since there are limitless Protestant interpretations of the Bible, there must be limitless numbers of Holy Spirits, each teaching a differerent version of the truth. This is news to me - it's my understanding that there is only one Holy Spirit, who teaches only one truth.


Good Day, Buzzard

I can see that your understanding is flawed and your premise is nothing more that a strawman... nice job in your construction and then burning it down.


The differing interpretation ( including your own) and your denomination if they could even put one forward is nothing new with in the history of Christian thought and quest for truth:

Basil of Caesarea: On the history of differing views of scripture




Basil of Caesarea (Ad 329-379): Liberated from the error of
pagan tradition through the benevolence and loving kindness
of the good God, with the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and
by the operation of the Holy Spirit, I was reared from the very
beginning by Christian parents. From them I learned even in
babyhood the Holy Scriptures which led me to a knowledge of
the truth. When I grew to manhood, I traveled about frequently
and, in the natural course of things, I engaged in a great many
worldly affairs. Here I observed that the most harmonious
relations existed among those trained in the pursuit of each of
the arts and sciences; while in the Church of God alone, for
which Christ died and upon which He poured out in
abundance the Holy Spirit, I noticed that many disagree
violently with one another and also in their understanding of
the Holy Scriptures.
Most alarming of all is the fact that I found
the very leaders of the Church themselves at such variance
with one another in thought and opinion
, showing so much
opposition to the commands of our Lord Jesus Christ, and so
mercilessly rendering asunder the Church of God and cruelly
confounding His flock that, in our day, with the rise of the
Anomoeans, there is fulfilled in them as never before the
prophecy, ‘Of your own selves shall men arise speaking
perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.’
Witnessing such disorders as these and perplexed as to what
the cause and source of such evil might be, I at first was in a
state, as it were, of thick darkness and, as if on a balance, I
veered now this way, now that—attracted now to one man,
now to another, under the influence of protracted association
with these persons, and then thrust in the other direction, as I
bethought myself of the validity of the Holy Scriptures. After a
long time spent in this state of indecision and while I was still
busily searching for the cause I have mentioned, there came to
my mind the Book of Judges which tells how each man did
what was right in his own eyes and gives the reason for this in
the words” ‘In those days there was no king in Israel.’ With
these words in my mind, then, I applied also to the present
circumstances that explanation which, incredible and
frightening as it may be, is quite truly pertinent when it is
understood; for never before has there arisen such discord
and quarreling as now among the the members of the Church
in consequence of their turning away from the one, great, and
true God, only King of the universe. Each man, indeed,
abandons the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ and arrogates
to himself authority in dealing with certain questions, making
his own private rules, and preferring to exercise leadership in
opposition to the Lord to being led by the Lord.
Reflecting
upon this and aghast at the magnitude of the impiety, I
pursued my investigation further and became convinced that
the aforesaid cause was no less the true source also of secular
difficulties. I noticed that as long as the common obedience of
the others to some one leader was maintained, all was
discipline and harmony in the whole group; but that division
and discord and a rivalry of leaders besides proceeded from a
lack of leadership. Moreover, I once had observed how even a
swarm of bees, in accordance with a law of nature, lives under
military discipline and obeys its own king with orderly
precision. Many such instances have I witnessed and many
others I have heard of, and persons who make profession of
such matters know many more still, so that they can vouch for
the truth of what I have said. Now, if good order with its
attendant harmony is characteristic of those who look to one
source of authority and are subject to one king, then universal
disorder and disharmony are a sign that leadership is wanting.
By the same token, if we discover in our midst such a lack of
accord as I have mentioned, both with regard to one another
and with respect to the Lord’s commands, it would be an
indictment either of our rejection of the true king, according
to the Scriptural saying: ‘only that he who now holdeth, do
hold, until he be taken out of the way,’ or of denial of Him
according to the Psalmist: ‘The fool hath said in his heart:
There is no God.’ And as a kind of token or proof of this, there
follow the words: ‘They are corrupt and are become
abominable in their ways.’ Fathers of the Church, Vol. 9,
Preface on the Judgment of God (New York: Fathers of the
Church, Inc., 1950), pp. 37-39.

As to your denomination:

Raymond E. Brown: Roman Catholics who appeal explicitly to Spirit-guided church teaching are often unaware that their church has seldom if ever definitively pronounced on the literal meaning of a passage of Scripture, i.e., what the author meant when he wrote it. Most often the church has commented on the on-going meaning of Scripture by resisting the claims of those who would reject established practices or beliefs as unbiblical. Raymond E. Brown, An Introduction to the New Testament (New York: Doubleday, 1997), p. 31.

Raymond E. Brown: To the best of my knowledge the Roman Catholic Church has never defined the literal sense of a single passage of the Bible.” Raymond E. Brown, The Critical Meaning of the Bible (New York: Paulist Press, 1981), p. 40.


Who was Raymond Brown:

"Raymond E. Brown, S.S., born in 1928 and ordained in 1953, has been recognized by universities in the U.S.A. and Europe by some twenty honorary doctoral degrees. He was appointed by Pope Paul VI to the Roman Pontifical Biblical Commission, and with church approval he has served for many years on the Faith and Order Commission of the World Council of Churches. Time magazine once described him as 'probably the premier Catholic scripture scholar in the U.S.,' and he is the only person to have served as president of all three of these distinguished societies: the Catholic Biblical Association, the Society of Biblical Literature, and the Society of New Testament Studies."

The book(s) from which the above citation is taken bears the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur of the Roman Catholic Church, meaning that it's supposed to be free of moral and doctrinal error. The RCC never removed him from his office. Instead, he was continually approved by Popes and given high positions within the denomination.

You really need to base your understanding based on the facts and history, instead of you subjective opinion and faulty presuppositions.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Buzzard3

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Ahem.... you left out the part about "the Church!"

Wonder why? Maybe it was an honest mistake. ;)
No need for a Church ... each individual believer is infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit.
 
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Buzzard3

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It did using Hebrew scriptures and oral tradition in the beginning of Christianity. The movement hadn't been hijacked yet.
Which Church did God entrust to compile the NT in the fourth-century (by which time the "movement" had been well and truly "hijacked", I presume)?
 
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Buzzard3

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That's all that counts while men go about making everything else about themselves. The scriptures got forwarded hopefully 'as is' although that is debatable when a church needs to fit scripture to institution rather than the other way around..
The OT prophets were "men", so why should anyone trust what they said?
 
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YeshuaFan

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Under the Protestant/Sola Scriptura (the Bible alone) theological system, is it your belief, and would you agree, there exists no person or no institution that can infallibly decide what is true and what is false for Christians when it comes to matters of faith and/or morals?

If you happen to answer yes to this question, my next question would be.... under this theological system, would you agree there is no sure way you could have absolute assurance of anything you believe being true? In other words, there is no way of knowing the truth?

Yet, Jesus says, "Know the truth and the truth will set make you free." (John 8:32)

So, let me leave you with this last question: For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?

Have a Blessed day!
Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and as such, is the ONLY authority for all doctrines and practices!
 
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Buzzard3

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Actually it was The Way, a way of life rather than a human institution..
It wasn't a "human institution" - Jesus gave Peter the "keys of the kingdom of God" (Matt 16:19), which is obviously a supernatural power.

Do you have idea what the "keys" mean, and how do the "keys" fit into your "movement/way of life" theory?
 
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parousia70

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Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and as such, is the ONLY authority for all doctrines and practices!

And where does the Bible teachs which books, letters, gospels and epistles are to be included in the canon of scripture and which are not? Did it "self collate"?
 
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Buzzard3

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Well, of course, the "household of faith" is a reference to all true believers.

Yes, the Lord is depending on them to uphold the Gospel. I didn't think that needed further explanation.
Jesus chose to give the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" to only person in the "household of faith" - Peter. Please explain.
 
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YeshuaFan

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And where does the Bible teachs which books, letters, gospels and epistles are to be included in the canon of scripture and which are not? Did it "self collate"?
The 66 canon books were all written by close of the first Century, and all but 4 of them were already fully accepted and being copied and used early Second Century as the NT books, as the OT canon was already fixed and accepted by time of Christ!
 
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Buzzard3

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You have elevated Peter to a place we don't hold to.
No, not me ... Jesus elevated Peter to a place you don't hold to.
The keys are not something that an individual or a church holds
Sorry, but that looks awfully like a blatant denial of what Scripture says:

"And I also say to you that you are PETER ... And I will give YOU the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever YOU bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matt 16:18-19.
Galatians 1:6–9 Paul stresses that if anyone—even he or an angel from heaven preaches a gospel other than the one he preached, they are under God’s curse. Later on Paul talks about a time he publicly rebuked Peter because his "conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel"
Galatians 2:14
14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
He would not have been rebuking Peter unless Peter was his equal. He didn't view Peter as infallible or in any way special.

You seem confused. Paul rebuked Peter, NOT for what Peter PREACHED, but for NOT PRACTISING what he preached. This doesn't prove Peter did not have the final say (due to being the only apostle who held the "keys") on what should be preached (dogma and doctrine).

However, it does prove that the Christ-chosen leader of the Church (in this case, Peter) can be rebuked by another Church elder to address a personal failing.


We all are flawed human beings and yet we are all charged to spread the gospel, sinful and flawed as we are. I am sure God looks down and thinks good help is hard to get. ;)
(last part is a joke)
That's why Jesus gave Peter the "keys" (Matt 18-19) ... despite being a flawed human being, he and he alone was guided supernaturally to infallibly decide (ie, have the final say) on what the Church should preach.
 
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Albion

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No, not me...
However, it does prove that the Christ-chosen leader of the Church (in this case, Peter) can be rebuked by another Church elder to address a personal failing.

We've yet to get to anything that says Peter was the "Christ-chosen leader of the Church," however.


That's why Jesus gave Peter the "keys" (Matt 18-19)
WHAT's why Jesus gave Peter the keys? You have a guess, but others have interpreted the passage in a different way.
 
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Buzzard3

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Jesus made it very clear ...
Meanwhile, there are tens of thousands of non-Catholic Christian sects and denominations in existence because they can't agree on what Jesus made "very clear" ...
 
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Albion

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Meanwhile, there are tens of thousands of non-Catholic Christian sects and denominations in existence because they can't agree on what Jesus made "very clear" ...

Very much like the many Catholic Christian church bodies.

(and I don't mean the different rites within the Roman Catholic Church, but different denominations that are classified as Catholic in the same way as the various denominations that are classified as Protestant. And of course there are some others that are outside of both of those classifications).
 
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Buzzard3

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We've yet to get to anything that says Peter was the "Christ-chosen leader of the Church," however.
Have you ever read the New Testament? It says Jesus gave "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" to one man, Peter. So says Matt 16:19.

There were three principal apostles - Peter, James and John. Yet, in the book of Acts, Peter is mentioned about 60 times, while James and John are each mentioned less than ten times. Please explain the imbalance.
 
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