A Farewell to 'Global Cooling'

Saving Hawaii

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2008
3,713
274
36
Chico, CA
✟5,320.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
So much for all the hullabaloo we've been hearing about 'global cooling' in the media and on these forums. So much too for the 'there has been no global warming' meme. These claims were all based on the ever-scholarly journalism of the finest British tabloids. So long to that nonsense.

Here's the news for the day. The past 12-months have been the warmest such period in the temperature record, according to data from the Goddard Institute of Space Studies. Check it out for yourself; I've included on this graph the monthly figures and a 12-month running average. I should note that the data used for this extends all the way back to 1880; the strong warming that caused scientists to take note began in earnest about half a century ago.

attachment.php


I don't think it's hard to see a trend becoming apparent in the past half century. There's a lot of noise, even in the 12-month figures. You can distinctly see the 1998 El Nino event pushing the actual figure well above the trend, just as you can see the 1991 eruption of Pinatubo driving the actual temperatures below what you would expect. I could throw in 5-year or 12-year smoothing and it would take a lot of those short-term influences out, but I don't feel any real need to. The direction we're heading is quite evident in the data.

It's very important to understand that our climate is understood to dampen changes early on. The oceans can absorb tremendous amounts of heat (cooling the atmosphere) literally for centuries before they've come to equilibrium with the new 'normal'. Our climate is also understood to react strongly to changes. Retreating ice-packs lead to darker land exposed to the sun which causes the ground to absorb more heat (less is reflected back into space than it would be were it covered with ice and snow). The thawing of polar regions causes carbon that was once buried in the permafrost to interact with the atmosphere again. The vast methane hydrate deposits in the Arctic Ocean are already releasing much more methane that scientists had thought they were just a few years ago. Methane is a potent greenhouse gas, and if we screw up badly enough to set those triggers off we'll have a global warming situation that is outside of human control.

I don't care that much about polar bears or penguins. Given that nothing else matters, I'd like to make sure humans don't push those species to extinction, but other things do matter. Making sure people have jobs matters. The ability for people to put food on their family's table matters. That's what I'm concerned about. Being as I just brought up methane release from hydrate deposits in the Arctic, let's touch on that briefly. Scientists suspect that large methane releases in the past have caused the ocean to become anoxic, leading to mass extinctions in the very waters that a friend of mine makes a living fishing.

More obvious concerns are the flooding of low-lying regions around the world. More of a few of those areas are currently being used as farmland for their excellent soil, and most major cities in the world are situated in low-lying regions that may be subject to coastal flooding within the next century (let alone the next few). While changes in rainfall could produces mega-droughts and cause massive crop failure in the great state of California, the very same global warming could cause excessive rainfall in the great river valleys of China, displacing millions of farmers trying to feed their families when record-breaking floods swamp their land and homes. What's worse, climate change is pushing crop growth towards unsuitable polar lands:
Climate models suggest that todays leading grain-producing areas -- in particular the Great Plains of the US -- may experience more frequent droughts and heat waves by the year 2030. Extended periods of extreme weather conditions would destroy certain crops... The poleward edges of the mid-latitude agricultural zones -- northern Canada, Scandinavia, Russia, and Japan in the northern hemisphere, and southern Chile and Argentina in the southern one -- may benefit from the combined effects of higher temperatures and CO2 fertilization. But the problems of rugged terrain and poor soil suggest that this would not be enough to compensate for reduced yields in the more productive areas.
This is the great challenge of our generation. Forget communism, socialism, capitalism, and every other -ism you can think of. We're facing a decision today about whether we care about what kind of world we'll leave for our children. I was raised to always leave a place better than I found it. If I were staying at somebody else's home, surely it would be cleaner and more tidy when I walked out the door than I when I walked in. I feel the same way about this. It would be an absolute travesty for my generation to leave a wrecked husk of a planet for our children. They deserve better than that; hopefully a planet better than we had.

We owe it to our ancestors who did their best to give us a better world and our children who deserve as much, to deal with this problem now.
 

Attachments

  • GISTEMP 12mo.jpg
    GISTEMP 12mo.jpg
    44.6 KB · Views: 171

Saving Hawaii

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2008
3,713
274
36
Chico, CA
✟5,320.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
A great resource for information on climate change and how it affects you is the United States Global Change Research Program. It's a coordinated effort between scientists in several government agencies to understand how our climate is changing, how it's affecting Americans today, and how it will affect them tomorrow. Here's a video recording of their recent report:

YouTube - White House Releases Landmark Climate Change Report

Dr. Jane Lubchenco, the head of NOAA, articulates one of the key points of the presentation simply and clearly. She states:
First and foremost, human-induced climate change is a reality. Not only in remote polar regions and in small tropical islands, but in every place around the country; in our own backyards. Climate change is happening and it's happening now. It's not just a problem for the future; we're beginning to see its impacts in our daily lives. More than that, humans are responsible for the changes that we're seeing and our actions now will determine the extent of future change and the severity of the impacts... It's not too late to act. Decisions made now will determine whether we get big changes or small ones. Substantially cutting heat-trapping pollution will result in less climate change and smaller impacts. Earlier cuts in emissions would have a greater effect than cuts later.
They go into much greater depth in the video, but I'll take some key points from the government's website:
  • Climate changes are underway in the United States and are projected to grow. Climate-related changes are already observed in the United States and its coastal waters. These include increases in heavy downpours, rising temperature and sea level, rapidly retreating glaciers, thawing permafrost, lengthening growing seasons, lengthening ice-free seasons in the ocean and on lakes and rivers, earlier snowmelt, and alterations in river flows. These changes are projected to grow.
  • Crop and livestock production will be increasingly challenged. Agriculture is considered one of the sectors most adaptable to changes in climate. However, increased heat, pests, water stress, diseases, and weather extremes will pose adaptation challenges for crop and livestock production.
  • Threats to human health will increase. Health impacts of climate change are related to heat stress, waterborne diseases, poor air quality, extreme weather events, and diseases transmitted by insects and rodents. Robust public health infrastructure can reduce the potential for negative impacts.
 
Upvote 0

wpiman2

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2007
2,778
61
Godless Massachusetts
✟18,251.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Libertarian
Global warming debate makes climate tough on friends - The Boston Globe

This was in yesterday's Sunday globe.... two guys at MIT.

"“If these two guys can’t agree on the basic conclusions of the social significance of [climate change science], how can we expect 6.5 billion people to?’’ said Roger Pielke Jr., a University of Colorado at Boulder professor who writes a climate blog."


So much for there being a consensus...
 
Upvote 0

KarateCowboy

Classical liberal
Site Supporter
Aug 6, 2004
13,390
2,109
✟140,932.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
I don't get it. In the 1880's the average global temperature was -20 C, and now it's 60 C? That's pretty darn hot.

BTW, how did they know the average temperature in the Tibetan mountains in 1880? How does Goddard have data like that from before they existed?

What about Maunder Minimum they keep saying we're going into?

Doesn't this belong in the science sub-forum?

Those questions asked, the first rule of climate change (for laymen) is: The climate has always changed, the climate is changing, the climate always will change.

The second rule is:
Temperature is only one of hundreds of aspects of climate change.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

wpiman2

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2007
2,778
61
Godless Massachusetts
✟18,251.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Libertarian
I don't get it. In the 1880's the average global temperature was -20 C, and now it's 60 C? That's pretty darn hot.

Who needs units?

That is why he isn't a scientists and just a forum poster.
 
Upvote 0

KarateCowboy

Classical liberal
Site Supporter
Aug 6, 2004
13,390
2,109
✟140,932.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Please tell me this isn't a serious question?
Yes and no. That's what the graph suggests. But let's say it's actually Farenheit: -20 is still really cold for an average temperature. That's why I say "I don't get it".
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Marek

Senior Member
Dec 5, 2003
1,670
60
Visit site
✟2,139.00
Faith
Catholic
Yes and no. That's what the graph suggests. But let's say it's actually Farenheit: -20 is still really cold for an average temperature. That's why I say "I don't get it".

The graph doesn't specify what the units are. If you were confused, you should have looked at the data that was provided. The average temperature in 1880 was about 13.72 degrees C and in 2009 was about 14.56 degrees C. Does this seem a little more reasonable?
 
Upvote 0

Voegelin

Reactionary
Aug 18, 2003
20,145
1,430
Connecticut
✟26,726.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Doesn't this belong in the science sub-forum?


Very clear to me we are dealing with Lysenkoism, not science. Every socialists in the world touted Al Gore before he became ....well...too strange to defend anymore. ENRON was the biggest supporter of Kyoto in the USA. That was a political move on the part of Lay, Skilling and Fastow to rake in some bucks--had nothing to do with the science. When the IPCC chairman responsible for the "definitive" global warming report got a Nobel Prize for Peace and not science...well...you know we're not dealing with science.

Perhaps in a few years, when the scientific community faces up to what was done, when the lysenkoists are chased out of the field, then climatology will be taken seriously again as a science.

As it is now, "Climate Change" is a punch line and political.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Saving Hawaii

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2008
3,713
274
36
Chico, CA
✟5,320.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Global warming debate makes climate tough on friends - The Boston Globe

This was in yesterday's Sunday globe.... two guys at MIT.

"“If these two guys can’t agree on the basic conclusions of the social significance of [climate change science], how can we expect 6.5 billion people to?’’ said Roger Pielke Jr., a University of Colorado at Boulder professor who writes a climate blog."

So much for there being a consensus...

Ah, the famous Richard Lindzen. How did I know his name would pop up sooner or later? Oh, that's right. When you've got virtually every other climate scientist supporting and developing the mainstream theory, it's almost certain that people who want to ignore science in favor of political expediency would point to the one or two usual suspects who always say "nay". I've got a hunch Roy Spencer and John Christy are about to make their faces shown here too.

I liked Richard Lindzen's iris hypothesis. That was essentially a theory detailing how there was something of an automatic stabilizer in the climate system. It was a great hypothesis, because if it was right we really wouldn't have to worry about global warming. Unfortunately there's this whole thing in science called independent replication. And the problem is, other researchers studying this hypothesis haven't been able to reproduce Lindzen's conclusions. If anything, the mechanism he brought up is quite likely to exacerbate global warming.

But Lindzen's a great guy to have around if you guys want a contrarian. Climate change, cigarettes and cancer, take your pick. He's a utility fielder when it comes to scientific doubt. My only question is this:

Are you choosing to endorse Lindzen because you think he's the only scientist who's actually right? Are you basing this off Lindzen's actual theories and input into the scientific debate and the validity of those arguments? Or are you simply choosing to endorse Lindzen because it's politically expedient for you. I would love to see the former, but I highly suspect it's the latter.
 
Upvote 0

wpiman2

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2007
2,778
61
Godless Massachusetts
✟18,251.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Libertarian
Ah, the famous Richard Lindzen. How did I know his name would pop up sooner or later? Oh, that's right. When you've got virtually every other climate scientist supporting and developing the mainstream theory, it's almost certain that people who want to ignore science in favor of political expediency would point to the one or two usual suspects who always say "nay". I've got a hunch Roy Spencer and John Christy are about to make their faces shown here too.

I liked Richard Lindzen's iris hypothesis. That was essentially a theory detailing how there was something of an automatic stabilizer in the climate system. It was a great hypothesis, because if it was right we really wouldn't have to worry about global warming. Unfortunately there's this whole thing in science called independent replication. And the problem is, other researchers studying this hypothesis haven't been able to reproduce Lindzen's conclusions. If anything, the mechanism he brought up is quite likely to exacerbate global warming.

But Lindzen's a great guy to have around if you guys want a contrarian. Climate change, cigarettes and cancer, take your pick. He's a utility fielder when it comes to scientific doubt. My only question is this:

Are you choosing to endorse Lindzen because you think he's the only scientist who's actually right? Are you basing this off Lindzen's actual theories and input into the scientific debate and the validity of those arguments? Or are you simply choosing to endorse Lindzen because it's politically expedient for you. I would love to see the former, but I highly suspect it's the latter.

I am not endorsing Lindzen nor Emanuel; just using the debate amongst the two to point out that anyone who claims that "the science is in", or the "time for debate is over" clearly has no knowledge of what truly is going on in scientific circles.

I watched the debate here live over climate gate that these two attended here; there was lively debate on all sides. So much for a "settled" issue.

Even the liberal bastion globe is catching on; readers were shocked to see it. It amazed us within the community because the debate is quite vocal here.
 
Upvote 0

Saving Hawaii

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2008
3,713
274
36
Chico, CA
✟5,320.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I don't get it. In the 1880's the average global temperature was -20 C, and now it's 60 C? That's pretty darn hot.

The unit used is 1/100° C. So divide the number on the graph by 100 if you want the change in Celsius and multiply it by 1.8 after that if you want it in Fahrenheit.

BTW, how did they know the average temperature in the Tibetan mountains in 1880? How does Goddard have data like that from before they existed?
They don't. Data from around the turn of the century is quite a bit more limited than what we have available today. It's still global, but there are some regions such as the Tibetan mountains where no data is available. Here's a map showing where data was available around the turn of the century:

attachment.php


What about Maunder Minimum they keep saying we're going into?
No Maunder Minimum. Here's a link to sunspot activity over the past half-century. You can see the dip in recent years that caused mild concern, but it appears that we're just starting to climb out of the solar minimum right now. Scientists get a little unnerved when the sun does things they don't expect (such as sit at the minimum of its solar cycle longer than they thought it would), because they aren't completely certain what it's about to do.

Those questions asked, the first rule of climate change (for laymen) is: The climate has always changed, the climate is changing, the climate always will change.
The first rule of aerodynamics (for laymen) is: If you jump off a cliff, bad things are going to happen to you, bad things will happen to you every time, and it's because falling to your death hurts. If I gave the average layman an entire team of Boeing machinists (and told them to keep their mouths shut about what he's doing wrong) and equipment, he couldn't design and build an airplane that would get off the ground. Even though the average layman rarely understands the reasons an airplane manages to fly into the sky, he still benefits from the expertise of aerospace engineers who do.

In the same sense, while the layman would be wise to understand that climate can and will always be changing, he would also be wise to grasp that the current scientific understanding is exacerbating the pace of that change from virtually nothing to an extremely rapid (in a geological sense) warming.

The second rule is: Temperature is only one of hundreds of aspects of climate change.
Exactly. In fact, if temperature were the only thing we had to be worried about, global warming really wouldn't be a big deal at all. Say we end up with ~9° F warming (the median estimate of researchers at MIT). That greatest warming will be concentrated in polar regions that might get ~12° F warming and the warmer tropical climes might average out to about ~6° F. That would probably be detrimental to equatorial regions, but it wouldn't be that bad and it probably wouldn't outweigh the benefits in the upper latitudes.

But it's not just temperature, like you said. Changes in precipitation are the biggest concern. Observed trends that are expected to get worse tell us that half-a-century from now, we'll be dealing with even worse flooding and drought in the corn belt of the Midwest than we are today. That's a massive problem. Geological evidence appears to closely link periods of strong warming with mega-droughts in California; do you really want to see what it's like to experience massive crop failure in one of the most agricultural productive places on this planet? The great river valleys of China and Asia can't afford much change in either direction (more rain appears likelier). Much more rain and you're looking at unparalleled flooding, displaying millions of peasants and ruining crops that feed billions. Much less and you're looking at droughts that would have much the same effect. Those places are developed to work based on the climate of today, and there's not much promise that they'll adapt well to the climate of tomorrow. Sea level rise also threatens to inundate some of the world's most productive cropland over the next century (and much more after that). Sure, we'll get additional cropland in the upper latitudes as they thaw out, but little of that land will be suitable for agricultural production for centuries to come. You try to grow corn in a nice and scenic glacial valley.

Those are just a couple of the major concerns, but that's the real worry. It's not the temperatures per say, those are just one of the easiest ways to measure the changing climate. It's everything that goes along with increasing temperatures, and all the economic and societal damage those changes will cause. The reason we need to address climate change today is that it threatens the economic prosperity of future generations.
 

Attachments

  • 1880.jpg
    1880.jpg
    46.6 KB · Views: 94
Upvote 0

Saving Hawaii

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2008
3,713
274
36
Chico, CA
✟5,320.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I am not endorsing Lindzen nor Emanuel; just using the debate amongst the two to point out that anyone who claims that "the science is in", or the "time for debate is over" clearly has no knowledge of what truly is going on in scientific circles. I watched the debate here live over climate gate that these two attended here; there was lively debate on all sides. So much for a "settled" issue. Even the liberal bastion globe is catching on; readers were shocked to see it. It amazed us within the community because the debate is quite vocal here.

As Voegelin dutifully points out, back in the 1930s Stalin decided to abandon the mainstream theories on agriculture adhered to by the vast majority of Soviet scientists in favor of the theories put forth by Trofim Lysenko. Despite the fact that these theories were poorly supported scientifically and lacked virtually any support in the scientific community, Lysenko's ideas were political advantageous for Stalin. They turned out to be dreadfully wrong and the resulting famine claimed the lives of million, but it certainly didn't stop Stalin from imprisoning and killing some of the more outspoken Soviet scientists like Nikolai Vavilov.

It's very similar to what we see today. Despite the fact that the vast majority of scientists and the weight of the scientific evidence tells us that climate change is happening and that it's largely anthropogenic in origin, people are choosing to ignore those warnings because it's politically expedient. Much as Vavilov and his colleagues were ignored because the powers-that-were found their expertise inconvenient, we're today choosing to ignore the expertise of thousands of climate scientists in favor of the advice put forth by a handful of dissidents. Though you've articulated that you're not endorsing Lindzen's viewpoint, so far as I can tell you're still endorsing his advice. The "do nothing" approach.

I'm not advocating countermeasures to deal with some of the more extreme global warming scenarios. I'm more of a middle-of-the-road guy on this myself... I think we need to be basing our actions and policy on what's most likely to happen. That means we're probably dealing with a ~9°F increase in temperatures over the next century if we continue on our current course. If we take measures today to avert that warming, we're probably looking at a warming of closer to ~4°F. These aren't 'alarmist' figures, they're the median estimates from MIT (I figure with how much Emanuel and Lindzen have popped up in this thread, we might as well use their university's conclusions).

We could fret about the upper-end scenarios, but I'm suggesting we make decisions based on what's most likely to happen over the next century. Stalin made the decision to ignore what his scientific community was telling him in favor of the political expediency of Lysenko's idea. It would be an absolute pity if the United States repeats his tragic blunder.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

wpiman2

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2007
2,778
61
Godless Massachusetts
✟18,251.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Libertarian
As Voegelin dutifully points out, back in the 1930s Stalin decided to abandon the mainstream theories on agriculture adhered to by the vast majority of Soviet scientists in favor of the theories put forth by Trofim Lysenko. Despite the fact that these theories were poorly supported scientifically and lacked virtually any support in the scientific community, Lysenko's ideas were political advantageous for Stalin. They turned out to be dreadfully wrong and the resulting famine claimed the lives of million, but it certainly didn't stop Stalin from imprisoning and killing some of the more outspoken Soviet scientists like Nikolai Vavilov.

It's very similar to what we see today. Despite the fact that the vast majority of scientists and the weight of the scientific evidence tells us that climate change is happening and that it's largely anthropogenic in origin, people are choosing to ignore those warnings because it's politically expedient. Much as Vavilov and his colleagues were ignored because the powers-that-were found their expertise inconvenient, we're today choosing to ignore the expertise of thousands of climate scientists in favor of the advice put forth by a handful of dissidents. Though you've articulated that you're not endorsing Lindzen's viewpoint, so far as I can tell you're still endorsing his advice. The "do nothing" approach.

I'm not advocating countermeasures to deal with some of the more extreme global warming scenarios. I'm more of a middle-of-the-road guy on this myself... I think we need to be basing our actions and policy on what's most likely to happen. That means we're probably dealing with a ~9°F increase in temperatures over the next century if we continue on our current course. If we take measures today to avert that warming, we're probably looking at a warming of closer to ~4°F. These aren't 'alarmist' figures, they're the median estimates from MIT (I figure with how much Emanuel and Lindzen have popped up in this thread, we might as well use their university's conclusions).

We could fret about the upper-end scenarios, but I'm suggesting we make decisions based on what's most likely to happen over the next century. Stalin made the decision to ignore what his scientific community was telling him in favor of the political expediency of Lysenko's idea. It would be an absolute pity if the United States repeats his tragic blunder.

Alright-- an analogy to Stalin for the people who question the accuracy of global warming predictions. Kudos to you. You are like the Glen Beck of climate change. Congrats.

I imagine I could probably draw a parallel between the political push for cap and trade to the final solution of Hilter-- but I'll pass. Not my style.


And just so you are aware; despite to obvious lack of "consensus" on the issue as demonstrated-- we see that Cap and Trade, Kyoto, and other measures are in fact being taken.


And to remind you of 7th grade science class, "consensus" is not part of the scientific method. It is a political method.

AGW predictions made in 1990 have proven to be woefully inadequate in predicting the last 20 years of climate worldwide. They were freakishly accurate in the 90s, but failed to predict the auts. 50% accuracy? Historically a complete failure. A coin toss would have done as well.

Are we so much more sophisticated today? My money is on no, but if in 2050 we see a 2 Centigrade raise in temperature-- I'll come back here and admit I was completely wrong.

That's the difference, people who question the science are open.
 
Upvote 0