A Discussion of Same-Sex Marriage and Gay Rights

[Monk Brendan]

The LGBT couples do not just want a cake from guys like this, they want the baker to be happy with making that cake.

Being a business owner (as I have been) is not about being "happy" or comfortable. Usually, in small business, the owner is the one that has to get up earlier and do all of the scut work that needs to be done. The owner is the first one in in the morning, and the last one out at night. Sometimes, the boss has to stay at work all night so that the work that needs to get done actually is done. In the jewelry industry, the boss has to stay at the store 24 hours a day, to finish the work that has been promised before Christmas. And sometimes, just sometimes, as he is walking out the door, the cops, hearing an alarm at the bank (I was in the same building) see this guy walking out, and come up and make this guy get down on the ground, and search his briefcase, and find all sorts of jewelry inside, and then the boss has to take one of the cops into the building, open the store, and prove that he is the owner, and that he is just finishing up his work at night.

I was not "happy" or comfortable. I was running my business. So don't give me that baloney about they SS couple wanting the baker to be happy about what they were doing. Just get the job done, on time, and as ordered. That's all I ever want a baker working on my cake to do.

Let me ask you, does Mr. Phillips bake cakes for Muslims? or for a bris? If he is as righteous as you paint him to be, he should glow in the dark, and be able to bilocate! But frankly, if he bakes a wedding cake for a divorced woman to be married again, then his "stand" against baking a cake for a SS reception is phony.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Or conversely and more closely related to this case, a Jewish or Muslim business man's business refuses to give me what I want because making it would not only offend his conscience but doing so in his view would offend God.

I worked (for a couple of weeks) for a jewelry repair shop run by Muslims. I was the only Christian they employed. I did my best work for them just as I later did for myself. They were not treating me fairly, and when they told me to stop working so that I would not offend their god or bother them while they were praying (and lose the hour's pay for it) I walked out. But while I was there they got my best quality work.

 

[Monk Brendan]

I continue to be amazed at the support some religious people demonstrate for punishing those who choose not to participate in such activities.

Be amazed! And continue to be amazed! Most of the posters on this forum continue to look at the sinful acts that a SS couple may or may not be doing. I have been talking about rights. Not preference, not religious convictions. Just the rights. Do gay people eat cake? Yes. Bake the blanked cake, take their money and get on with your life!

If Mr. Phillips wants to only bake cakes for Christians, then he should close his shop, as the whole world is made up of sinners (including me--including him--and including all of the people that have gotten up on their high horse about a gay wedding).

On the other hand, if Mr. Phillips wants to run a business, then he should remember that the world is full of sinners, and he has to let them live their own lives and find their way to God.

the Word of God which teaches that marriage between a man and a woman represents one of the most sacred fundamentals of his/her faith: the union of Christ and the Church.

What about a divorced woman marrying a divorced man? Which of Liz Taylor's husbands was the true one? Certainly not Dick Burton! He was #5 and #6!

I understand that they may not have been reading the Word of God. But to condemn them out of hand is absolutely the worst thing that you--any of us for that matter--can do. Do you know what Liz Taylor's last thought was? It might have been, "Sweet Jesus, save me." Do you--or anyone--know for sure that it was not?

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

What about a divorced woman marrying a divorced man?

I think for many christians its more an issue of the agenda they push and its why bakers don't want to bake for them. Its common for the more vocal LGBT to purposely go to places where christians work and get them to deny them this way they can go to the news and be like "So, we were denied. We are so shocked!". I think if not for their agenda people would be more open to them.

Though I myself try not to take part in any things I consider sinful. Such as a friend of my parents who got married. They offered to pay my parents and myself to help at with the wedding. My parents took the woman up on it but I wanted nothing to do with it since it was her third marriage. I mean I hope the best for this lady but I don't want to be part of it. Granted in the end I helped because my parents were having a hard time.

Also on a unrelated side note your faith says "Melkite Catholic". What is that? I mean I've heard of various versions of catholic but never a Melkite. What are their beliefs? I'm genuinely curious! Thanks.

 

[Monk Brendan]

I think for many christians its more an issue of the agenda they push and its why bakers don't want to bake for them. Its common for the more vocal LGBT to purposely go to places where christians work and get them to deny them this way they can go to the news and be like "So, we were denied. We are so shocked!". I think if not for their agenda people would be more open to them.

What is the "gay agenda?" The last I heard it was get up at dawn, work out for a couple of hours, eat a sumptuous breakfast, go to the tanning parlor for an hour of relaxing and staying tanned, then get together with his friends and turn the north pole around 180 degrees. After that, a quick lunch, take two minutes to give voodoo vibes to Congress so that they will be forced to make special parking spaces for gays, marked with pink triangles, that are closer to the entrance of the stores so that when it is raining they won't melt. Then spend three minutes making more voodoo vibes at American Express to force them to issue special cards that they never have to pay back. Finally, they spend a few minutes "recruiting," and making sure all the world is "happy" with it, a nice dinner, and then to bed.

Or is it something like this: A man gets up, showers, shaves, gets dressed, and goes to work for 8 hours. He calls his husband at home during lunch. He goes back to work, then when he gets home, his partner is walking out the door to go to his job, working nights. When he gets home, both are so dead tired that they don't even have the energy to think about going out. So they go to bed, watch a few minutes of TV, and fall asleep. So lascivious, isn't it?

 

[Monk Brendan]

Though I myself try not to take part in any things I consider sinful.

How do you know it is sinful? Have you been given a gift from God to know when someone is doing right or wrong? Do you also report someone for speeding? How about spitting gum on the road? So many people are so afraid of offending God. Do you think He might be more offended by people who hurry past the bum on the street and won't even say a prayer? Or perhaps is it someone who comes upon a religious minority and is able to feel so superior to them because only they have the truth, and not the minority?

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

How do yo..... (rant rant rant)

Well blocking you now since you don't know how to have a conversation.

 

[Archivist]

I think for many christians its more an issue of the agenda they push and its why bakers don't want to bake for them. Its common for the more vocal LGBT to purposely go to places where christians work and get them to deny them this way they can go to the news and be like "So, we were denied. We are so shocked!". I think if not for their agenda people would be more open to them.

But a business must follow the law. LGBT individuals should be able to go to any wedding cake provider that is open to the public in Colorado and buy a wedding cake. This business could have resolved the issue very easily by selling the couple with a wedding cake.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

But a business must follow the law. LGBT individuals should be able to go to any wedding cake provider that is open to the public in Colorado and buy a wedding cake. This business could have resolved the issue very easily by selling the couple with a wedding cake.

Actually as christians we do not have to obey the law. More so we are told in the bible we are to obey mans law ONLY if it doesn't conflict with Gods laws. So biblically I would be doing what is right. Though is it worth the fight though? One could argue its just a cake. But that leads me to this.....

I'd respond by asking a question of you (or others). Instead of asking should a christian bake a cake for a LGBT wedding, we should ask what would Jesus do? What does God say? What does the bible say?

LGBT issues aside the bible always asks essentially will we stand up for what we believe as christians or will we put Christ behind us to appease the world because maybe its easier or because we are bullied into it. In other words stand for God or deny Him. We can only serve one master.

So now when you look at the baker question you see hes standing up as God tells us to do. Hes not wanting to bake a cake for a LGBT couple because by making them a cake, your essentially giving your ok to their lifestyle. And taking their money on top of it. That is standing up for your Christianity.

Alot of christian bakers just make the cake for them because they fear what happens if they say no. Or they give into peer pressure about the issue so they make it. They push aside God to please humans. Are they going to hell for that? Of course not. Is it a sin to bake that cake? Likley not. Heck am I notperfect and show no support for things that are wrong? Nope. I'm flawed to.

Which is why I am not a baker because I won't have to be in that situation. Granted I do bake pasteries for events. And if contacted by a LGBT couple I would turn them down. Thankfully since its my own business they can't do anything about it. No boss to complain to. No company HQ to complain to. They can't shut me down.

Now outside of lets say the cake, I have helped LGBT people before. I've worked on a couple's computer. Which obviously is different. Its a computer. Its not a wedding which binds them as one.

Whatever the case I'm out of this topic because I'm surprised it hasn't been shutdown yet. Sadly I avoid talking about LGBT issues with christians because in todays world you have to fear other christians now who are totally for the topic. Who knew when Jesus said we would suffer because of His name, we would be suffering sometimes by those who are brothers and sisters.

 

[Archivist]

Actually as christians we do not have to obey the law. More so we are told in the bible we are to obey mans law ONLY if it doesn't conflict with Gods laws. So biblically I would be doing what is right. Though is it worth the fight though? One could argue its just a cake. But that leads me to this.....

I'd respond by asking a question of you (or others). Instead of asking should a christian bake a cake for a wedding, we should ask what would Jesus do? What does God say? What does the bible say?

LGBT issues aside the always asks essentially will we stand up for what we believe as christians or will we put Christ behind us to appease the world because maybe its easier or because we are bullied into it. In other words stand for God or deny Him. We can only serve one master.

So now when you look at the baker question you see hes standing up as God tells us to do. Hes not wanting to bake a cake for a LGBT couple because by making them a cake, your essentially giving your ok to their lifestyle. And taking their money on top of it. That is standing up for your Christianity.

Alot of christian bakers just make the cake for them because they fear what happens if they say no. Or they give into peer pressure about the issue so they make it. They push aside God to please humans. Are they going to hell for that? Of course not. Is it a sin to bake that cake? Likley not. Heck am I perfect and show no support for things that are wrong? Nope. I'm flawed to.

Which is why I am not a baker because I won't have to be in that situation. Granted I do bake pasteries for events. And if contacted by a LGBT couple I would turn them down. Thankfully since its my own business they can't do anything about it. No boss to complain to. No company HQ to complain to. They can't shut me down.

Now outside of lets say the cake, I have helped LGBT people before. I've worked on a couple's computer. Which obviously is different. Its a computer. Its not a wedding which binds them as one.

Whatever the case I'm out of this topic because I'm surprised it hasn't been shutdown yet. Sadly I avoid talking about LGBT issues with christians because in todays world you have to fear other christians now who are totally for the topic. Who knew when Jesus said we would suffer because of His name, we would be suffering sometimes by those who are brothers and sisters.

1) the cake is not served as part of the wedding. It is served at a party.

2) selling a cake to a same-sex couple is no more of an andorsement of the marriage than providing chicken for the reception dinner or changing the oil in the limo. The baker is providing a service.

3) if your state law forbids discrimination against same-sex couples then yes you could be in violation of the law. Yes, they could shut you down.

 

[Paidiske]

What does it mean to stand up for Christ in a corrupted world? So often I think it means to show everyone love and grace, to invite them into relationships where they might be able to see that there is a better way (governed by a better One) of life.

By rejecting my "sinful" neighbour (whatever the sin may be) I preclude that possibility. I show them harshness and rejection. I imply that God would do likewise. I suspect I discourage them from considering that Christianity might actually offer them anything life-giving.

Now that is aside from the question of the sinfulness or not of selling a cake. But if the argument shifts to, "Well, it might not be sinful to sell the cake but I want to do whatever most looks like standing up for Christ," then I suggest that the moral policeman approach is less likely to be effective than the generous hospitality approach. But maybe that's just me?

 

[SilverBear]

I have never been celibate, but am unclear what your interest in my sex life is.

Celibate???? What are you talking about?

 

[SilverBear]

So if everything my restaurant serves has either pork in it or cooked with pork fat, then a Jewish or Muslim customer should be able to force me to make a Hala or Kosher alternative or risk civil suit?
Or conversely and more closely related to this case, a Jewish or Muslim business man's business refuses to give me what I want because making it would not only offend his conscience but doing so in his view would offend God.

What a dishonest analogy. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[SilverBear]

A Kosher or Hala only deli is making a discrimination on what they will serve based on their convictions and supported by religious freedoms .

garbage. That kosher deli doesn't serve pork products to anyone and doesn't deny any of their product to anyone. Your baker is refusing to serve particular people the same thing he happily provides to others. That is discrimination.

 

[ken777]

Who knew when Jesus said we would suffer because of His name, we would be suffering sometimes by those who are brothers and sisters.

When Jesus was on earth it was religious people who crucified him.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Being a business owner (as I have been) is not about being "happy" or comfortable. Usually, in small business, the owner is the one that has to get up earlier and do all of the scut work that needs to be done. The owner is the first one in in the morning, and the last one out at night. Sometimes, the boss has to stay at work all night so that the work that needs to get done actually is done. In the jewelry industry, the boss has to stay at the store 24 hours a day, to finish the work that has been promised before Christmas. And sometimes, just sometimes, as he is walking out the door, the cops, hearing an alarm at the bank (I was in the same building) see this guy walking out, and come up and make this guy get down on the ground, and search his briefcase, and find all sorts of jewelry inside, and then the boss has to take one of the cops into the building, open the store, and prove that he is the owner, and that he is just finishing up his work at night.

I was not "happy" or comfortable. I was running my business. So don't give me that baloney about they SS couple wanting the baker to be happy about what they were doing. Just get the job done, on time, and as ordered. That's all I ever want a baker working on my cake to do.

Let me ask you, does Mr. Phillips bake cakes for Muslims? or for a bris? If he is as righteous as you paint him to be, he should glow in the dark, and be able to bilocate! But frankly, if he bakes a wedding cake for a divorced woman to be married again, then his "stand" against baking a cake for a SS reception is phony.

If one is not happy with what one is doing am not sure one can be a good businessman and should be doing something else. I was not talking about what makes Phillips happy. I was talking about the only thing that would satisfy some is that Phillips be happy making them a wedding cake.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

What does it mean to stand up for Christ in a corrupted world? So often I think it means to show everyone love and grace, to invite them into relationships where they might be able to see that there is a better way (governed by a better One) of life.

By rejecting my "sinful" neighbour (whatever the sin may be) I preclude that possibility. I show them harshness and rejection. I imply that God would do likewise. I suspect I discourage them from considering that Christianity might actually offer them anything life-giving.

Now that is aside from the question of the sinfulness or not of selling a cake. But if the argument shifts to, "Well, it might not be sinful to sell the cake but I want to do whatever most looks like standing up for Christ," then I suggest that the moral policeman approach is less likely to be effective than the generous hospitality approach. But maybe that's just me?

Unless one knew the couple was and intended to remain celibate, am not sure how helping them celebrate their living in sin could be seen as helping or life-giving. In fact it would seem to be the opposite, at least that is if one thought it would be living in sin.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

garbage. That kosher deli doesn't serve pork products to anyone and doesn't deny any of their product to anyone. Your baker is refusing to serve particular people the same thing he happily provides to others. That is discrimination.

He serves others cake and presumably he would given them a cake - just not a wedding cake (or a halloween cake for that matter). It is equal treatment to a point, the point where he is asked to make something he finds objectionable.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Celibate???? What are you talking about?

Am talking about not having sex, regardless of orientation, which is why I asked if that was not a "choice" in the LGBT community. It goes to whether one is choosing to sin or not.
The assumption was made that by "choice" I could have only meant choosing orientation. I don't know but have read some aren't attracted to opposite sex, but even they still have a choice or should have a choice to be sexually active or not. Have also read that not a few living the "lifestyle" are not in that same category, meaning for them attraction to one sex had nothing to do with their behavior/decisions. Any way one arrives at choosing to act, unless we consider counting lust as many of us do, the action is the sin not the orientation.

 

[Archivist]

If one is not happy with what one is doing am not sure one can be a good businessman and should be doing something else. I was not talking about what makes Phillips happy. I was talking about the only thing that would satisfy some is that Phillips be happy making them a wedding cake.

Are the workers who made your car happy? What about those who see your ahirts? I don't think the customers care whether Phillips. Is happy when he makes their wedding cake. He runs a bakery and makes wedding cakes. They just want him to make the same wedding cake he would make for any heterosexual couple.