A dilemma for Calvinists

CmRoddy · May 16, 2009

Eucharistic Adoration said:
You make a series of straw dog points unrelated to the OP.

Of course we are saved by grace.

What I deny is that we have no responsibility to respond to God's grace.

You claim that our response is unnecessary for salvation.

So, the Biblical teaching that nothing we do can save us (even believing according to James 2:19) is a bad thing? God elects us based on His will (Eph. 1:5), but this election results in our salvation manifesting itself through the faith that Christ authored (Heb. 12:2).

If you want to keep holding to this semi-pelagian view, you have to deny that Christ is the author and perfecter of faith.

As I said, you have not responded to my post and you clearly don't understand what I wrote.

Eucharistic Adoration · May 16, 2009

CmRoddy said:
So, the Biblical teaching that nothing we do can save us (even believing according to James 2:19) is a bad thing?

Click to expand...

I completely agree. We cannot save ourselves. However, our ACTIONS can lead to a rejection of God's grace and lead to our condemnation.

God elects us based on His will (Eph. 1:5), but this election results in our salvation manifesting itself through the faith that Christ authored (Heb. 12:2).

Click to expand...

God saves those who fall on his mercy and use his grace to persevere in obedience.

If you want to keep holding to this semi-pelagian view, you have to deny that Christ is the author and perfecter of faith.

Click to expand...

Gibberish.

ittarter · May 16, 2009

Eucharistic Adoration said:
That's all semantics. God chooses who will be elect and who will be saved with no regard for human actions.

The distinctions you are making don't change the point.

In fact, they change the point fundamentally. I will briefly summarize.

Jesus NEVER says that God CHOOSES us based on our actions. He says that UNLESS we obey/endure, we will not be SAVED.

You cannot simply collapse various categories into one. You're making the same mistake that non-Trinitarians make when they critique that doctrine. One person vs. one essence ... "It's the same thing!!" they say.

Well, you must explain why they are the same. I have explained why they are different. Now it is up to you to reciprocate.

Jesus said we MUST obey.

Jesus said we MUST endure.

Calvinists deny both.

They say humans are incapable of doing anything.

They do? Then I'm sure it will be very easy for you to provide a reference or link to an out-spoken or well-spoken Calvinist who says such things.

The main confusion remains a failure to distinguish between multiple categories.

Eucharistic Adoration · May 16, 2009

ittarter said:
Jesus NEVER says that God CHOOSES us based on our actions. He says that UNLESS we obey/endure, we will not be SAVED.

Click to expand...

Luke 12
8"I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. 9But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God.

Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matt 6
14 If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. 15 But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Luke 13
34"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

They do? Then I'm sure it will be very easy for you to provide a reference or link to an out-spoken or well-spoken Calvinist who says such things.

The main confusion remains a failure to distinguish between multiple categories.

Click to expand...

Total Depravity as defined at Calvinist Corner:

The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare mans true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

ittarter · May 17, 2009

Eucharistic Adoration said:
ittarter said:

Luke 12
8"I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. 9But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God.

Click to expand...

Being disowned before God's angels relates to salvation, not election.

Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Click to expand...

"Entering the kingdom of heaven" is in the category of salvation, not election.

Matt 6
14 If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. 15 But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Click to expand...

A more forgivable confusion. Calvinists believe that forgiveness actually takes place AFTER election, not before. Hence, forgiveness also falls in the category of salvation, not election.

Luke 13
34"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Click to expand...

By far the best firepower against the Calvinist position that you have provided. The only way to deal with verses like these is to make a distinction between God's "effective" will and his "emotional" will. I'm not convinced, personally, but it is certainly an "out" that needs to be discussed, not simply ignored.

Total Depravity as defined at Calvinist Corner:

The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare mans true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

Click to expand...

Here the Calvinist explicitly explains that, by himself, no human being can choose God, because of his or her sinful nature. He does NOT say that obedience is necessary for election; however, he could say elsewhere that obedience is a necessary fruit OF election and is a necessary step toward salvation. I have read many Calvinist writers who have stated such things in no uncertain terms.

Perhaps the "dilemma for Calvinists" is in fact only a dilemma for those who are not Calvinists and are trying to grasp the inner logic of the Calvinist faith? Because I don't think many Calvinists are going to be troubled by the facts you have gathered together. You're going to have to do a better job of explaining WHY they need to be troubled. Even I, a non-Calvinist, can explain it without much thinking outside the box.

Eucharistic Adoration · May 17, 2009

ittarter said:
Eucharistic Adoration said:

Being disowned before God's angels relates to salvation, not election.

"Entering the kingdom of heaven" is in the category of salvation, not election.

A more forgivable confusion. Calvinists believe that forgiveness actually takes place AFTER election, not before. Hence, forgiveness also falls in the category of salvation, not election.

By far the best firepower against the Calvinist position that you have provided. The only way to deal with verses like these is to make a distinction between God's "effective" will and his "emotional" will. I'm not convinced, personally, but it is certainly an "out" that needs to be discussed, not simply ignored.

Here the Calvinist explicitly explains that, by himself, no human being can choose God, because of his or her sinful nature. He does NOT say that obedience is necessary for election; however, he could say elsewhere that obedience is a necessary fruit OF election and is a necessary step toward salvation. I have read many Calvinist writers who have stated such things in no uncertain terms.

Perhaps the "dilemma for Calvinists" is in fact only a dilemma for those who are not Calvinists and are trying to grasp the inner logic of the Calvinist faith? Because I don't think many Calvinists are going to be troubled by the facts you have gathered together. You're going to have to do a better job of explaining WHY they need to be troubled. Even I, a non-Calvinist, can explain it without much thinking outside the box.

Click to expand...

You asked for scripture that shows us that we are chosen for our actions.

I provided it. You brush it away.

I don't recommend you put your beliefs into practice in your own life. It is not wise to ignore the instructions and warnings of God.

ittarter · May 17, 2009

Eucharistic Adoration said:
You asked for scripture that shows us that we are chosen for our actions.

No, I didn't. Perhaps you confused me with someone else. I asked that you explain why people shouldn't distinguish between the categories of election and salvation. You have not yet provided me with a single reason for doing so.

I don't recommend you put your beliefs into practice in your own life. It is not wise to ignore the instructions and warnings of God.

I didn't tell you my beliefs. You don't know my beliefs. We are discussing the beliefs of Calvinists. I have already stated that I am not one. There's not yet any reason to get preachy.

If this is the extent of the thought you are willing to put out to respond to my thoughts, then I will no longer continue to post on this thread.

This seems to be a very confusing and emotional issue for you. If it is, you might consider being silent on it for, say, a year, just keeping your eyes and ears open, and try to learn something new that might provide an avenue for new thoughts. And stay away from the Soteriology forum. It will only aggravate you. Do some research and find some scholarly material that doesn't take a side, just discusses it or suggests non-polarized ways of dealing with the controversy.

Shalom, friend. I wish you well.

oworm · May 17, 2009

Eucharistic adoration
In Post 45 the statement was made that;

by the grace of God we are enabled to obey.

To which you responded in Post 49 with

Wrong. Obedience is our response to God's grace.

But then in Post 60 you said

Grace saves us by enabling us to obey.

This is one of the reasons I stopped debating in the soteriology forum.

heymikey80 · May 17, 2009

Eucharistic Adoration said:
I think this must be a living faith. Even the demons believe. Satan believes.

Do Satan and the demons love the Father?

Nope, but that's not the point. To inject someone else's point into another writer doesn't deprive the original writer of relevance.

Reliance on Jesus Christ is different from believing that God is one. Forcing every Apostle to say the same thing deprives most Apostles of the important points they're making.

It's often called eisegesis, and each time it's used it deprives the Scripture of stating a truth.

At this point we've got an accumulation of points -- that those who are born of God persevere, that those who are born of God believe, that those who are born of God obey, and that those who are not born of God are not spiritual.

The original dilemma's been solved. It doesn't have to do with James' comparison of "belief about" and "belief in". It has to do with the One Who acts first. The rest is result.

Hismessenger · May 17, 2009

As I posted earlier, it isn't a doctrine but an understanding of the nature of and purpose for the creation.

Look at chapter 12 of Job, verses 12 to the end;

Job 12:12 With the ancient [is] wisdom; and in length of days understanding.

Job 12:13 With him [is] wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding.

Job 12:14 Behold, he breaketh down, and it cannot be built again: he shutteth up a man, and there can be no opening.

Job 12:15 Behold, he withholdeth the waters, and they dry up: also he sendeth them out, and they overturn the earth.

Job 12:16 With him [is] strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver [are] his.

Job 12:17 He leadeth counsellors away spoiled, and maketh the judges fools.

Job 12:18 He looseth the bond of kings, and girdeth their loins with a girdle.

Job 12:19 He leadeth princes away spoiled, and overthroweth the mighty.

Job 12:20 He removeth away the speech of the trusty, and taketh away the understanding of the aged.

Job 12:21 He poureth contempt upon princes, and weakeneth the strength of the mighty.

Job 12:22 He discovereth deep things out of darkness, and bringeth out to light the shadow of death.

Job 12:23 He increaseth the nations, and destroyeth them: he enlargeth the nations, and straiteneth them [again].

Job 12:24 He taketh away the heart of the chief of the people of the earth, and causeth them to wander in a wilderness [where there is] no way.

Job 12:25 They grope in the dark without light, and he maketh them to stagger like [a] drunken [man].

Now for those who say that Calvin was wrong, tell us what can man do against what is written above. Can He choose to do other than what is ordained. And can His choice cause things to change from what God has ordained them to be. We must recognize our place and that is as a possession of the creator here to do the bidding of Him who purposed us from the beginning. This is what Calvin understood and it is truth that most can seem to grasp. To let God be what you can't deem him to be for he is who he is and we have no say in that.

hismessenger

heymikey80 · May 17, 2009

ittarter said:
I didn't tell you my beliefs. You don't know my beliefs. We are discussing the beliefs of Calvinists. I have already stated that I am not one. ...

If this is the extent of the thought you are willing to put out to respond to my thoughts, then I will no longer continue to post on this thread.

This seems to be a very confusing and emotional issue for you. If it is, you might consider being silent on it for, say, a year, just keeping your eyes and ears open, and try to learn something new that might provide an avenue for new thoughts. And stay away from the Soteriology forum. It will only aggravate you. Do some research and find some scholarly material that doesn't take a side, just discusses it or suggests non-polarized ways of dealing with the controversy.

Shalom, friend. I wish you well.

It's useful to other people on the thread to gain insight from what you've been posting, even if it's not particularly useful to EA.

ittarter · May 17, 2009

heymikey80 said:
It's useful to other people on the thread to gain insight from what you've been posting, even if it's not particularly useful to EA.

I appreciate the vote of confidence

Eucharistic Adoration · May 17, 2009

Hismessenger said:
As I posted earlier, it isn't a doctrine but an understanding of the nature of and purpose for the creation.

Look at chapter 12 of Job, verses 12 to the end;

Now for those who say that Calvin was wrong, tell us what can man do against what is written above. Can He choose to do other than what is ordained. And can His choice cause things to change from what God has ordained them to be. We must recognize our place and that is as a possession of the creator here to do the bidding of Him who purposed us from the beginning. This is what Calvin understood and it is truth that most can seem to grasp. To let God be what you can't deem him to be for he is who he is and we have no say in that.

hismessenger

Since God wants all men to be saved, he has sent us help to make us turn to him:

John 16
7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

Eucharistic Adoration · May 17, 2009

heymikey80 said:
The original dilemma's been solved. It doesn't have to do with James' comparison of "belief about" and "belief in". It has to do with the One Who acts first. The rest is result.

You think in such a tiny box it is difficult to break through.

Why must we be obedient?

oworm · May 17, 2009

Eucharistic adoration
In Post 45 the statement was made that;

by the grace of God we are enabled to obey.

To which you responded in Post 49 with

Wrong. Obedience is our response to God's grace.

But then in Post 60 you said

Grace saves us by enabling us to obey.

This is one of the reasons I stopped debating in the soteriology forum.

cygnusx1 · May 18, 2009

Originally Posted by hlaltimus

Hummm...Then why is faith found nowhere in hell? If faith is not a divinely imparted gift, but an inherent ability, then all of the damned demons, men and women in hell better get busy and bail themselves out by faith since "All things are possible to him who believes." Faith is to be found nowhere in hell for the very reason that it is a gift bestowed upon by God and He has denied them this grace there as they never truly sought for the gift while they were here.

Eucharistic Adoration · May 18, 2009

oworm said:
Eucharistic adoration
In Post 45 the statement was made that; To which you responded in Post 49 with But then in Post 60 you saidThis is one of the reasons I stopped debating in the soteriology forum.

It is perfectly clear to me.

What is your issue with those statements?

Here they are:

by the grace of God we are enabled to obey.

Obedience is our response to God's grace.

Grace saves us by enabling us to obey.

Charis kai Dunamis · May 18, 2009

Eucharistic Adoration said:
Do you accept unconditional election or not?

What is it that man does, according to Calvinism, to earn salvation?

EARN???

Clearly you do not understand the Gospel.

Eucharistic Adoration · May 18, 2009

Jesusfreak5000 said:
EARN???

Clearly you do not understand the Gospel.

So your answer is.......NOTHING!

Back to the question at hand:

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Is a harvest something we earn?

Of course it is. We can earn a harvest and still recognize that it is only possible to earn a harvest thanks to the gifts of the earth, seeds, and life, etc.

We can't save ourselves, but we still must participate in God's grace.

Charis kai Dunamis · May 18, 2009

Eucharistic Adoration said:
So your answer is.......NOTHING!

Back to the question at hand:

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Is a harvest something we earn?

Of course it is. We can earn a harvest and still recognize that it is only possible to earn a harvest thanks to the gifts of the earth, seeds, and life, etc.

We can't save ourselves, but we still must participate in God's grace.

It ceases to become grace if we must earn it.

A dilemma for Calvinists

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