A Depraved Mind

[LightHorseman]

And how do you square that with your view expressed elsewhere that "murder" is defined by legal consensus?

Murder IS defined by legal consensus... what does that have to do with human life being worth more than the life of an animal? Murder is an ILLEGAL killing, period. This isn't rocket science...

I'm not here to get people to change their positions. I'm here to give people a choice they may not have had before: between truth and lies.

So, you claim to know "the Truth", yet you point blank refused to tell me what it is just a few posts back. Nice one.

 

[Freodin]

However for someone who is able to procreate and makes an effort to close off this natural act of procreation is in defiance to God's natural law and thus is a great mortal sin.

Hm.... monks and nuns?

 

[nhisname]

Yep! I agree with you Zaac!

 

[yguy]

Murder IS defined by legal consensus... what does that have to do with human life being worth more than the life of an animal?

Implicit in the definition of murder is the special worth (as you acknowledged) of human beings, which is axiomatic because it's a transcendent principle; yet you claim murder is defined by consensus. You can't have it both ways.

So, you claim to know "the Truth", yet you point blank refused to tell me what it is just a few posts back.

No, I just refused to explain it any further. It would lost on anyone like yourself who favors analysis over insight.

 

[LightHorseman]

Implicit in the definition of murder is the special worth (as you acknowledged) of human beings, which is axiomatic because it's a transcendent principle; yet you claim murder is defined by consensus. You can't have it both ways.

Um, they are two seperate issues. Murder is a legal construct, the value of human life is an ethical construct. True, the idea of murder is BASED on the idea that there is an inherent value to human life, however it does not follow therefore that all ending of human life is murder.

No, I just refused to explain it any further. It would lost on anyone like yourself who favors analysis over insight.

Well I can neither analyse nor gain insight if you refuse to explain your position, can I? So it seems a bit unfair to dismiss my understanding of your position when you don't make every effort to explain it. Its not like I'm not prepared to make an effort to understand where you are coming from.

 

[yguy]

it does not follow therefore that all ending of human life is murder.

Who said it does?

Its not like I'm not prepared to make an effort to understand where you are coming from.

That's why it would be a waste of time. An uncorrupted five year old would get it immediately, but for those who insist on analyzing everything it's impossible.

 

[Beanieboy]

Luke 18:9-14

He spoke also this parable to certain people who were convinced of their own righteousness, and who despised all others.

"Two men went up into the temple to pray;
one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector.
The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this:

‘God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.’
But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying,

‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

 

[LightHorseman]

Who said it does?

Well it seems to be what you are saying. Rather than playing the "imply then deny" game, why not tell us whgat YOU think "murder" means?[/QUOTE]

That's why it would be a waste of time. An uncorrupted five year old would get it immediately, but for those who insist on analyzing everything it's impossible.

5 year olds are notoriously bad at comprehendiong complex issues.

 

[yguy]

Well it seems to be what you are saying.

That's odd considering that it doesn't follow from anything I've said.

Rather than playing the "imply then deny" game, why not tell us whgat YOU think "murder" means?

Murder is deliberate and unjust homicide.

5 year olds are notoriously bad at comprehending complex issues.

There's your problem: it's not complex at all, so naturally you can't understand it.

 

[LightHorseman]

Murder is deliberate and unjust homicide.

And illegal.

 

[yguy]

And illegal.

Since you're Catholic, you presumably believe Jesus spoke the truth when He said the devil was a murderer from the beginning. What law was then in effect that has since been repealed?

 

[LightHorseman]

Since you're Catholic, you presumably believe Jesus spoke the truth when He said the devil was a murderer from the beginning. What law was then in effect that has since been repealed?

Jesus is eminently well placed to decide what sorts of killings are legal and illegal. I would also submit that there is a possible translation issue, and that modern context English "murder" is not an entirely accurate translation of the original word used by Christ.

 

[yguy]

Jesus is eminently well placed to decide what sorts of killings are legal and illegal. I would also submit that there is a possible translation issue, and that modern context English "murder" is not an entirely accurate translation of the original word used by Christ.

Nope. The modern definitions generally refer to unlawful killing, and it was understood even 100 years ago that there are higher laws than those enacted by man.

 

[LightHorseman]

Nope. The modern definitions generally refer to unlawful killing, and it was understood even 100 years ago that there are higher laws than those enacted by man.

Yeah, um, dude... unlawful means illegal. Which is what I've been saying all along.

As for higher laws than those enacted by man, possibly they exist, but "murder" is a man made term written into manmade laws with a manmade and clear definition.

Once again, if you want to argue that abortion is wrong, go nuts. If you want to call abortion "murder" in jurisdictions where it is legally defined as murder, I won't stop you. But calling a LEGAL killing "murder" is simply wrong. Its a contradiction of terms. Its like calling shopping "theft", or consentual sex "rape". It just ain't so.

(wonder if this is the place to point out that even the Bible outlines quite clearly different punishments for those convicted of murder, and those convicted of unsolicited abortion? I'm not even going to mention the fact that the Bible literally calls for abortion in the case of infidelity related pregnancy, because after all, I don't know what I'm talking about)

 

[yguy]

But calling a LEGAL killing "murder" is simply wrong. Its a contradiction of terms.

Not at all. It's just a contradiction of you.

 

[yguy]

As for higher laws than those enacted by man, possibly they exist,

I cannot help but marvel that anyone can call himself a Christian and express any doubt about this.

 

[LightHorseman]

Not at all. It's just a contradiction of you.

Oh good, so rather than try to support your claims with reference to something like, say, a dictionary, we've resorted to "nuhuh, I'm rubber, you're glue" arguments. Nice.

I cannot help but marvel that anyone can call himself a Christian and express any doubt about this.

You were fairly vague about what "higher laws" you were refering to. How do I know the ones you are refering to are the same ones I believe in?

 

[morningstar2651]

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. Romans 1:28-32


It's obvious that sometimes God just gives some over to a depraved mind and allows them to believe that which isn't true. That's why so many are believing the devil's lie that homosexual sex is not a sin.

Clearly, it's undoubtedly obvious.

 

[yguy]

How do I know the ones you are refering to are the same ones I believe in?

How do you feel about the two Great Commandments?

And if you're OK with them, what do you think they imply about deliberately killing innocent people? That we should pretend it's not murder because the majority calls it legal?

 

[PhilosophicalBluster]

How do you feel about the two Great Commandments?

And if you're OK with them, what do you think they imply about deliberately killing innocent people? That we should pretend it's not murder because the majority calls it legal?

Fetus =/= Person
The end.