A conversation about unity.

[Xeno.of.athens]

I think officially the whole Presbytery (the assembly, not the geographical region) is our equivalent of a bishop.

A bishop is one person, a presbytery is usually many people.

 

[The Liturgist]

I think officially the whole Presbytery (the assembly, not the geographical region) is our equivalent of a bishop.

In Orthodoxy it would be equivalent to the Holy Synod of a local church.

 

[ralliann]

Of course, I ask (pray) Blessed Mary to pray for me to the Lord my God, don't you?

I am not asking about you. I am asking if All Catholics have to pray to her, as co-mediatrix. I am under the impression that is so. would I be instructed to say hail Mary's for penance?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I am not asking about you.

That's a relief.

I am asking if All Catholics have to pray to her

No one "has to pray" to Blessed Mary. Why on earth would you believe otherwise?

, as co-mediatrix.

That's just a theological title, speculative and NOT dogmatic.

I am under the impression that is so.

That impression is wrong.

would I be instructed to say hail Mary's for penance?

Possibly, you could object - say something like, "I object to praying the rosary, I dislike doing it".

 

[ralliann]

That's a relief.

No one "has to pray" to Blessed Mary. Why on earth would you believe otherwise?

That's just a theological title, speculative and NOT dogmatic.

That impression is wrong.

Possibly, you could object - say something like, "I object to praying the rosary, I dislike doing it".

So, it is possibly, yes I would? Therefore my impression could be correct.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

So, it is possibly, yes I would?

You do understand, I hope, that a penance cannot be enforced, right? It is always a voluntary act of obedience to perform the penance.

Therefore my impression could be correct.

No, your stated impression is wrong. Just completely wrong.

️ On the Title “Co-Mediatrix”

The Catholic Church has not defined the title Co-Mediatrix as a dogma. While the Church permits and encourages Marian devotion, including invocation under titles such as Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix (cf. Lumen Gentium §62, Second Vatican Council), it has not declared the term Co-Mediatrix as binding upon the faithful. The Church teaches that “no creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer” (Lumen Gentium §62), thereby safeguarding the unique mediatorship of Christ (cf. 1 Timothy 2:5).

Thus, although Marian titles such as Mediatrix of all graces are theologically permissible and widely held in devotional contexts, they do not constitute dogma. The faithful are not required to affirm or use the title Co-Mediatrix, nor are they obliged to direct prayers to Mary under that designation.

On the Obligation to Pray to Mary

Catholics are not dogmatically required to pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary. However, the Church teaches that devotion to Mary is “intrinsic to Christian worship” (Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC] §971), and encourages Marian prayers such as the Rosary as spiritually beneficial. The faithful are free to invoke her intercession, but such prayer is not obligatory in the sense of canonical or dogmatic compulsion.

On Saying Hail Marys for Penance

The assignment of Hail Marys as part of sacramental penance is a pastoral decision made by the confessor. It is not universally mandated, but is common practice. The Hail Mary itself is a biblically rooted prayer (cf. Luke 1:28, 1:42) and its use in penance reflects the Church’s esteem for Marian intercession. However, the form and content of penance are not dogmatically fixed and may vary.

Dogmatic Sources Referenced

• Lumen Gentium (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church), §§60–62, Second Vatican Council
• Catechism of the Catholic Church, §§963–975, especially §971
• Council of Trent, Session XIV, on the Sacrament of Penance (regarding the confessor’s discretion)

In summary, the Church does not impose a universal obligation upon all Catholics to pray to Mary as Co-Mediatrix, nor does it dogmatically require the recitation of Hail Marys for penance. These practices are encouraged and pastorally applied, but not doctrinally mandated.

 

[ralliann]

You do understand, I hope, that a penance cannot be enforced, right? It is always a voluntary act of obedience to perform the penance.

No, your stated impression is wrong. Just completely wrong.

️ On the Title “Co-Mediatrix”

The Catholic Church has not defined the title Co-Mediatrix as a dogma. While the Church permits and encourages Marian devotion, including invocation under titles such as Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix (cf. Lumen Gentium §62, Second Vatican Council), it has not declared the term Co-Mediatrix as binding upon the faithful. The Church teaches that “no creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer” (Lumen Gentium §62), thereby safeguarding the unique mediatorship of Christ (cf. 1 Timothy 2:5).

Thus, although Marian titles such as Mediatrix of all graces are theologically permissible and widely held in devotional contexts, they do not constitute dogma. The faithful are not required to affirm or use the title Co-Mediatrix, nor are they obliged to direct prayers to Mary under that designation.

On the Obligation to Pray to Mary

Catholics are not dogmatically required to pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary. However, the Church teaches that devotion to Mary is “intrinsic to Christian worship” (Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC] §971), and encourages Marian prayers such as the Rosary as spiritually beneficial. The faithful are free to invoke her intercession, but such prayer is not obligatory in the sense of canonical or dogmatic compulsion.

On Saying Hail Marys for Penance

The assignment of Hail Marys as part of sacramental penance is a pastoral decision made by the confessor. It is not universally mandated, but is common practice. The Hail Mary itself is a biblically rooted prayer (cf. Luke 1:28, 1:42) and its use in penance reflects the Church’s esteem for Marian intercession. However, the form and content of penance are not dogmatically fixed and may vary.

Dogmatic Sources Referenced

• Lumen Gentium (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church), §§60–62, Second Vatican Council
• Catechism of the Catholic Church, §§963–975, especially §971
• Council of Trent, Session XIV, on the Sacrament of Penance (regarding the confessor’s discretion)

In summary, the Church does not impose a universal obligation upon all Catholics to pray to Mary as Co-Mediatrix, nor does it dogmatically require the recitation of Hail Marys for penance. These practices are encouraged and pastorally applied, but not doctrinally mandated.

Ok thank you for this information. I was misinformed.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

we've had a few days of silence in this thread, and that has allowed heads to cool down. So, now we can take a step back and consider what we can do to progress unity.

We know that one can't progress unity by pretending that shrinking the faith to some tiny core that we can all agree on will allow us to achieve unity. We know that that will not work. Nor should we pretend that our differences are insignificant because we know that they are significant. But we can achieve some steps towards unity, by being very clear about what we each believe. That will give us the possibility of defining our words and deciding what we really do stand for and what we can negotiate. It is possible that there are no areas that we can negotiate in which case we can anticipate that unity will not be achieved.

Catholics in all likelihood cannot negotiate on any area that would require denial of or modification of dogma. Protestants can voice their own restrictions. similarly, orthodox Christians, can state what their non negotiable beliefs are.

One thing seems obvious to me and that is that defining our terms is the only way we can go forward. we need to make it very clear what we think is important.

 

[Hentenza]

My church has achieved unity in Christ with the Catholic Church down the block because we respect each other as Christians and treat each other as equals which is something that this thread has failed miserably to accomplish.

If unity means that we must join and recognized the primacy of doctrines by the so called ancient churches to become part of the body of Christ then count me out. Christ fully knows who His sheep are. He will sort it out when WE (including all of you) get to heaven.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

My church has achieved unity in Christ with the Catholic Church down the block because we respect each other as Christians and treat each other as equals which is something that this thread has failed miserably to accomplish.

If unity means that we must join and recognized the primacy of doctrines by the so called ancient churches to become part of the body of Christ then count me out. Christ fully knows who His sheep are. He will sort it out when WE (including all of you) get to heaven.

Well, truth is, that if that local Catholic Church is allowing non Catholics to commune, they have broken unity with the Catholic Church. This is their rules, not mine.

 

[concretecamper]

Well, truth is, that if that local Catholic Church is allowing non Catholics to commune, they have broken unity with the Catholic Church. This is their rules, not mine.

Correct. Never compromise truth for the sake of false unity.

 

[Hentenza]

Well, truth is, that if that local Catholic Church is allowing non Catholics to commune, they have broken unity with the Catholic Church. This is their rules, not mine.

Communion and Catholic typical devotions we do not share. We fellowship, pray for each other, have joint programs for the poor, and other similar activities. The point of my post is that we treat each other as equal Christians part of the Body of Christ.

 

[Hentenza]

Correct. Never compromise truth for the sake of false unity.

NM is just going to fall on deaf ears.

 

[ARBITER01]

Never compromise truth for the sake of false unity.

I think that is a true statement.

Until Jesus conveys to me any concern He may have about denominational unity, it's just a false desire. I think people should just stay in their own camps and see how things turn out in the end.

 

[concretecamper]

NM is just going to fall on deaf ears.

Informed ears, ears that hear His Word.

 

[Hentenza]

Informed ears, ears that hear His Word.

Thanks for proving my point. I’m sure you make a great ambassador for your church.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Communion and Catholic typical devotions we do not share. We fellowship, pray for each other, have joint programs for the poor, and other similar activities. The point of my post is that we treat each other as equal Christians part of the Body of Christ.

This is a unity that should be acceptable to all Christians.

 

[jas3]

Communion and Catholic typical devotions we do not share.

Then that's not really viewing each other as being "equally" part of the Body of Christ.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

My church has achieved unity in Christ with the Catholic Church down the block

Yes you are still two quite separate churches.

 

[Strong in Him]

We know that one can't progress unity by pretending that shrinking the faith to some tiny core that we can all agree on will allow us to achieve unity.

It's a shame that the Christian Gospel - the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes, Romans 1:16 - has been reduced to "some tiny core".

We know that that will not work.

If the Gospel doesn't bring unity, what will?

Nor should we pretend that our differences are insignificant because we know that they are significant.

Significant, maybe - but important?

But we can achieve some steps towards unity, by being very clear about what we each believe.

I think we have been - it's just that others disagree.

and what we can negotiate.

I don't think we need to "negotiate" anything - or indeed, if we can.
We believe the Gospel. We disagree on how it is put into practice or certain, unimportant, details - but we have the same God, the same Saviour and the same Spirit.

Catholics in all likelihood cannot negotiate on any area that would require denial of or modification of dogma.

Catholics - and everyone else - are entitled to believe, and practice, as they wish.
What no one is entitled to do is to insist that their church, alone, has the truth, is the only church approved by Christ and that other Christians are inferior if they do not believe, and practice, as they do.

One thing seems obvious to me and that is that defining our terms is the only way we can go forward. we need to make it very clear what we think is important.

The Gospel is important.
Proclaiming Jesus, the eternal Word, who was born, ministered, died, was raised from the dead and ascended, is important.
Telling a world which has no hope and no peace that Christ is, and has, the answer is important.
Jesus IS truth, IS the Way, IS hope, IS God's final word on salvation and he alone can save us, is important.