A conversation about unity.

[hedrick]

Indeed, it is clear that the offices of Presbyter and Bishop diverged between the mid 1st century and the time of St. Ignatius of Antioch, who outlines the hierarchy we have at present. I suspect this division was due to the repose of the Apostles, with the archpresbyters assuming the title episkopoi, but it could have gone the other way.

Practically speaking, the Presbyterians reinvented the bare minimum function of tne episcopal office in the form of the Moderators of your assemblies - that function being the traditional Episcopal function, but I am sympathetic to why the trauma of the Western church caused you to wish to jettison the monarchial bishops. In the East we love our bishops, but the laity can usually with some difficulty force out a noxious bishop or override their decisions (this has happened - it is rare, but the classic example of the laity overriding the decisions of the hierarchy was the rejection of the Council of Florence, which was approved by both the Eastern Orthodox and Armenian Apostolic hierarchies, with the exception on the EO side of St. Mark of Ephesus - I can’t recall exactly how things occurred in the Armenian church, but it was along these approximate lines.

I think officially the whole Presbytery (the assembly, not the geographical region) is our equivalent of a bishop.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I think officially the whole Presbytery (the assembly, not the geographical region) is our equivalent of a bishop.

A bishop is one person, a presbytery is usually many people.

 

[The Liturgist]

I think officially the whole Presbytery (the assembly, not the geographical region) is our equivalent of a bishop.

In Orthodoxy it would be equivalent to the Holy Synod of a local church.

 

[ralliann]

Of course, I ask (pray) Blessed Mary to pray for me to the Lord my God, don't you?

I am not asking about you. I am asking if All Catholics have to pray to her, as co-mediatrix. I am under the impression that is so. would I be instructed to say hail Mary's for penance?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I am not asking about you.

That's a relief.

I am asking if All Catholics have to pray to her

No one "has to pray" to Blessed Mary. Why on earth would you believe otherwise?

, as co-mediatrix.

That's just a theological title, speculative and NOT dogmatic.

I am under the impression that is so.

That impression is wrong.

would I be instructed to say hail Mary's for penance?

Possibly, you could object - say something like, "I object to praying the rosary, I dislike doing it".

 

[ralliann]

That's a relief.

No one "has to pray" to Blessed Mary. Why on earth would you believe otherwise?

That's just a theological title, speculative and NOT dogmatic.

That impression is wrong.

Possibly, you could object - say something like, "I object to praying the rosary, I dislike doing it".

So, it is possibly, yes I would? Therefore my impression could be correct.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

So, it is possibly, yes I would?

You do understand, I hope, that a penance cannot be enforced, right? It is always a voluntary act of obedience to perform the penance.

Therefore my impression could be correct.

No, your stated impression is wrong. Just completely wrong.

️ On the Title “Co-Mediatrix”

The Catholic Church has not defined the title Co-Mediatrix as a dogma. While the Church permits and encourages Marian devotion, including invocation under titles such as Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix (cf. Lumen Gentium §62, Second Vatican Council), it has not declared the term Co-Mediatrix as binding upon the faithful. The Church teaches that “no creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer” (Lumen Gentium §62), thereby safeguarding the unique mediatorship of Christ (cf. 1 Timothy 2:5).

Thus, although Marian titles such as Mediatrix of all graces are theologically permissible and widely held in devotional contexts, they do not constitute dogma. The faithful are not required to affirm or use the title Co-Mediatrix, nor are they obliged to direct prayers to Mary under that designation.

On the Obligation to Pray to Mary

Catholics are not dogmatically required to pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary. However, the Church teaches that devotion to Mary is “intrinsic to Christian worship” (Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC] §971), and encourages Marian prayers such as the Rosary as spiritually beneficial. The faithful are free to invoke her intercession, but such prayer is not obligatory in the sense of canonical or dogmatic compulsion.

On Saying Hail Marys for Penance

The assignment of Hail Marys as part of sacramental penance is a pastoral decision made by the confessor. It is not universally mandated, but is common practice. The Hail Mary itself is a biblically rooted prayer (cf. Luke 1:28, 1:42) and its use in penance reflects the Church’s esteem for Marian intercession. However, the form and content of penance are not dogmatically fixed and may vary.

Dogmatic Sources Referenced

• Lumen Gentium (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church), §§60–62, Second Vatican Council
• Catechism of the Catholic Church, §§963–975, especially §971
• Council of Trent, Session XIV, on the Sacrament of Penance (regarding the confessor’s discretion)

In summary, the Church does not impose a universal obligation upon all Catholics to pray to Mary as Co-Mediatrix, nor does it dogmatically require the recitation of Hail Marys for penance. These practices are encouraged and pastorally applied, but not doctrinally mandated.

 

[ralliann]

You do understand, I hope, that a penance cannot be enforced, right? It is always a voluntary act of obedience to perform the penance.

No, your stated impression is wrong. Just completely wrong.

️ On the Title “Co-Mediatrix”

The Catholic Church has not defined the title Co-Mediatrix as a dogma. While the Church permits and encourages Marian devotion, including invocation under titles such as Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix (cf. Lumen Gentium §62, Second Vatican Council), it has not declared the term Co-Mediatrix as binding upon the faithful. The Church teaches that “no creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer” (Lumen Gentium §62), thereby safeguarding the unique mediatorship of Christ (cf. 1 Timothy 2:5).

Thus, although Marian titles such as Mediatrix of all graces are theologically permissible and widely held in devotional contexts, they do not constitute dogma. The faithful are not required to affirm or use the title Co-Mediatrix, nor are they obliged to direct prayers to Mary under that designation.

On the Obligation to Pray to Mary

Catholics are not dogmatically required to pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary. However, the Church teaches that devotion to Mary is “intrinsic to Christian worship” (Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC] §971), and encourages Marian prayers such as the Rosary as spiritually beneficial. The faithful are free to invoke her intercession, but such prayer is not obligatory in the sense of canonical or dogmatic compulsion.

On Saying Hail Marys for Penance

The assignment of Hail Marys as part of sacramental penance is a pastoral decision made by the confessor. It is not universally mandated, but is common practice. The Hail Mary itself is a biblically rooted prayer (cf. Luke 1:28, 1:42) and its use in penance reflects the Church’s esteem for Marian intercession. However, the form and content of penance are not dogmatically fixed and may vary.

Dogmatic Sources Referenced

• Lumen Gentium (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church), §§60–62, Second Vatican Council
• Catechism of the Catholic Church, §§963–975, especially §971
• Council of Trent, Session XIV, on the Sacrament of Penance (regarding the confessor’s discretion)

In summary, the Church does not impose a universal obligation upon all Catholics to pray to Mary as Co-Mediatrix, nor does it dogmatically require the recitation of Hail Marys for penance. These practices are encouraged and pastorally applied, but not doctrinally mandated.

Ok thank you for this information. I was misinformed.