A conversation about unity.

[ralliann]

The Roman Catholic Church has not declared the Blessed Virgin Mary to be Co-Redemptrix. Indeed the group pushing for that, the so-called “Fifth Dogma”, does so on the basis of an apparition apparently experienced by Ida Peerdeman, a Dutch woman who had personal difficulties, and the vision she experienced was, in my opinion, disturbing and inauthentic, and the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith under Pope Benedict XVI and if I recall, even more recently than that, declared her visions “Unworthy of belief.”

Roman Catholics do tend to regard her as Mediatrix of all Graces, but that’s not the same as Co-Redemptrix. If the RCC declared the Theotokos to be Co-Redemptrix, it would likely terminate ecumenical reconciliation with the Orthodox, the Assyrians and other dialogue partners of the Roman church.

Now, the Roman Catholics do believe the Blessed Virgin Mary to be the Mother of God (Theotokos) and to have been assumed into Heaven, but so do the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox; the strange thing is that this was only officially made dogma in the Roman church in the 1950s, whereas it had been dogma in the Orthodox Church since the first century AD, but the Roman liturgy was always … parsimonious. This was probably in part due to the language barrier, since the Eastern churches used Greek and Syriac, and much of the liturgical development actually occurred among Syrian fathers like St. Ephraim, St. Jacob of Sarugh, St. Romanos the Melodist and St. John of Damascus, whereas in the Roman church only the Patricians and educated Equestrian Plebeians spoke Greek - and also the Roman liturgy in the first millennium inclined towards extreme brevity.

Also regarding the title of Mother of God, and the Perpetual Virginity of St. Mary, this was believed in not just by Martin Luther, Thomas Cranmer and John Wesley, but also, begrudgingly, by John Calvin (he hated to admit that the Blessed Virgin Mary was Theotokos, but understood both that the title was semantically and in all other respects correct, for Jesus Christ is God and St. Mary did absolutely bear him, and also the severe problems embracing Nestorianism would cause to the model of the Incarnation, so he swallowed his pride and earned respect from myself and many other Christians). The rejection of the status of the Theotokos as Theotokos and of her perpetual virginity originated with the Radical Reformation, the Anabaptists, and were continued by various groups, most recently the 19th century Restorationist denominations, and obviously if you can accept the Real Presence you don’t fall into that camp.

Would I be required to pray to her?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Would I be required to pray to her?

Of course, I ask (pray) Blessed Mary to pray for me to the Lord my God, don't you?

 

[Valletta]

I think that the assumption that tradition is always right is a trap.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE ⇡

One common source... ⇡
I. The Apostolic Tradition

75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32

In the apostolic preaching. . .

76 In keeping with the Lord's command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:
- orally "by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit";33
- in writing "by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing".34

. . . continued in apostolic succession

77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38

79 The Father's self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. and the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39
32 DV 7; cf. Mt 28:19-20; Mk 16:15
33 DV 7.
34 DV 7.
35 DV 7 # 2; St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 3, 1: PG 7/1, 848; Harvey, 2, 9.
36 DV 8 # 1.
37 DV 8 # 1.
38 DV 8 # 3.
39 DV 8 # 3; cf. Col 3:16.
II. The Relationship Between Tradition and Sacred Scripture

One common source. . .

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"and [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44

Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions

83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus' teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. the first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.

Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church's Magisterium.

 

[Carl Emerson]

collectively they were infallible

He inspired them to write infallable scripture, but they were imperfect - as Jesus said
Mark 10:18
“Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

 

[Strong in Him]

Of course, I ask (pray) Blessed Mary to pray for me to the Lord my God, don't you?

No.
Jesus is our intermediary and prays for us. So does the Holy Spirit, Romans 8:17.
God himself intercedes for us; we don't need a third party to do so as well.

 

[The Liturgist]

He inspired them to write infallable scripture, but they were imperfect - as Jesus said
Mark 10:18
“Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Indeed, no one is disputing that. Anyone who claimed the disciples were perfect didn’t read the New Testament.

That said it should be pointed out that our Lord was using a rhetorical device there, since He was perfect - I periodically come across people who try to use that verse to disprove the Incarnation or the Trinity.

 

[The Liturgist]

Would I be required to pray to her?

I can’t speak for the Roman Church. In the Orthodox Church we pray to God but ask the saints for their prayers and some of our hymns do this as well, for instance “Through the intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior save us.”

I strongly advise all Christians to ask the Theotokos to join them in prayer - I like to use the Hail Mary, which is a favorite of Anglicans and other high church Protestants as well as the Orthodox and Catholics. Orthodox Christians do not pray the full Rosary however with the Decades etc as we do not use our visual imagination in prayer - indeed this is a major reason why we use icons, because idolatry can occur in the mind’s eye and the Orthodox who are forbidden to pray to an icon will visually reference the icon as a safeguard against deceptive imagery forming in our mind - this act causes some people to think we are praying to the icon when we absolutely are not (and to do so is canonically forbidden).

 

[The Liturgist]

Of course, I ask (pray) Blessed Mary to pray for me to the Lord my God, don't you?

Yes.

 

[The Liturgist]

1 Tim implies the existence of an office of overseer or bishop. This may be a nit, but it doesn't speak of this as requirements for ordination, since it doesn't speak of ordination at that point. Of course it's reasonable to think that the laying of hands or ordination mentioned in 5:22 applies to them, particularly in the Presbyerian tradition, which assumes the the episcopos in 3:2 is the same thing as the elder in 5:22. More seriously, we don't know what the implications were of laying on of hands / ordination, nor are we sure how close the concept of bishop and elder are to later church offices. Typical church histories imply that responsibilities developed over a period of time.

Indeed, it is clear that the offices of Presbyter and Bishop diverged between the mid 1st century and the time of St. Ignatius of Antioch, who outlines the hierarchy we have at present. I suspect this division was due to the repose of the Apostles, with the archpresbyters assuming the title episkopoi, but it could have gone the other way.

Practically speaking, the Presbyterians reinvented the bare minimum function of tne episcopal office in the form of the Moderators of your assemblies - that function being the traditional Episcopal function, but I am sympathetic to why the trauma of the Western church caused you to wish to jettison the monarchial bishops. In the East we love our bishops, but the laity can usually with some difficulty force out a noxious bishop or override their decisions (this has happened - it is rare, but the classic example of the laity overriding the decisions of the hierarchy was the rejection of the Council of Florence, which was approved by both the Eastern Orthodox and Armenian Apostolic hierarchies, with the exception on the EO side of St. Mark of Ephesus - I can’t recall exactly how things occurred in the Armenian church, but it was along these approximate lines.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No.
Jesus is our intermediary and prays for us. So does the Holy Spirit, Romans 8:17.

I see, so the next time one of your friends or loved ones says, "please pray for me" you'll say "get away from me Satan! Only Jesus is intermediary who prays for us!". Okay, keep that in mind.

God himself intercedes for us; we don't need a third party to do so as well.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

He inspired them to write infallable scripture, but they were imperfect - as Jesus said
Mark 10:18
“Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Looks like you may have confused impeccable with infallible.

 

[Strong in Him]

I see, so the next time one of your friends or loved ones says, "please pray for me" you'll say "get away from me Satan!

Don't be daft.
Jesus tells us to pray. He even told us how, and what to pray. He didn't say, "ask Mary (or anyone else who has died) to pray for you."
When I pray for someone, I talk directly to God. I don't say "dear Mary, please pray for me."

 

[Carl Emerson]

Indeed, no one is disputing that. Anyone who claimed the disciples were perfect didn’t read the New Testament.

That said it should be pointed out that our Lord was using a rhetorical device there, since He was perfect - I periodically come across people who try to use that verse to disprove the Incarnation or the Trinity.

Whoops... you wont hear me doing that !!!

 

[Carl Emerson]

Looks like you may have confused impeccable with infallible.

Maybe we have a different take on the nature of scripture.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Don't be daft.
Jesus tells us to pray. He even told us how, and what to pray. He didn't say, "ask Mary (or anyone else who has died) to pray for you."
When I pray for someone, I talk directly to God. I don't say "dear Mary, please pray for me."

It's really strange isn't it that saint Paul writes to the churches to pray for one another and you seem dead set against that.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Maybe we have a different take on the nature of scripture.

possibly. I never think of scripture as the sole source of revelation from or about God. I suspect that you might.

Nevertheless impeccable means sinless (without faults) and infallible means true (without error). They are not the same thing.

 

[Strong in Him]

It's really strange isn't it that saint Paul writes to the churches to pray for one another and you seem dead set against that.

Well of course he wanted that.

But he didn't say to ask OT figures, or people who had died to pray for them.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Well of course he wanted that.

But he didn't say to ask OT figures, or people who had died to pray for them.

If only your bible has 73 books in it, alas, that it does not.

 

[Carl Emerson]

possibly. I never think of scripture as the sole source of revelation from or about God. I suspect that you might.

Nevertheless impeccable means sinless (without faults) and infallible means true (without error). They are not the same thing.

Scripture says it is not the sole revelation.

 

[Strong in Him]

If only your bible has 73 books in it, alas, that it does not.

Oh I suppose you're claiming that there is a verse somewhere in the Apocrypha that tells people to do this?

Well it's not a case of "alas that it does not". Jesus himself said that we can go into a room and pray to our Father.
That's it.
Jesus gave his life so that we could be reconciled to God, become his child and call him Father. We can talk to God without needing to ask someone else to do it for us.