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A conversation about unity.

A New Dawn

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I gave three criteria, sacramental unity, doctrinal unity, governance unity. All three are in holy scripture, God gave us holy scripture, therefore the criteria are the same as God's criteria.

The call to unity in doctrine, sacramental life, and ecclesial governance is deeply embedded in Scripture. Below is a list of passages that collectively affirm this tri-fold unity, with brief annotations to clarify their relevance:


Unity of Doctrine

  • Ephesians 4:3–6 — “One body and one Spirit… one Lord, one faith, one baptism…”
    Paul exhorts believers to preserve doctrinal unity grounded in shared belief and sacramental identity.
  • 1 Corinthians 1:10 — “That you be perfectly united in mind and judgement.”
    A direct appeal against divisions, urging intellectual and doctrinal harmony within the Church.
  • 2 Timothy 1:13–14 — “Hold to the standard of sound teaching… guard the good deposit.”
    Paul charges Timothy to preserve apostolic doctrine as a sacred trust.



Unity in Sacramental Life

  • Acts 2:42 — “They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.”
    The early Church’s unity was expressed through shared teaching and Eucharistic worship.
  • 1 Corinthians 10:17 — “Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body.”
    The Eucharist is both sign and source of ecclesial unity.
  • John 17:21 — “That they may all be one… so that the world may believe.”
    Christ’s high priestly prayer links visible unity—including sacramental communion—with evangelistic witness.



Unity in Church Governance

  • Matthew 16:18–19 — “You are Peter… I will give you the keys of the kingdom.”
    Christ establishes Petrine authority as foundational to Church governance.
  • Titus 1:5 — “Appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.”
    Paul mandates structured leadership to preserve order and sound teaching.
  • 1 Timothy 3:1–7Outlines qualifications for bishops, emphasising moral integrity and doctrinal fidelity.
  • Hebrews 13:17 — “Obey your leaders and submit to them…”
    Affirms the legitimacy of ecclesial authority and the duty of the faithful to cooperate.
  • Acts 20:28 — “The Holy Spirit has made you overseers…”
    Apostolic governance is divinely instituted for the care of the Church.

If you expressed the above in a previous post then it was in error as much in that post as it is here.
So you don’t care about unity, then. There are plenty of instances in the Bible where God disliked what Israel did, but he strove with them instead of dismissing them out of hand. Israel was God’s chosen people, through whom the nations of the world would be blessed. The Catholic Church is not mentioned. God did away with the laws and rituals when Christ fulfilled the law, the Catholic Church stuck them back in and demands that everyone fall down and worship their way or you are not considered in communion with God. Sorry, but I’m good with God. I am blessed day and night as long as I put my faith in Him, not in a man made organization that seems to take joy in deciding for everyone else their standing with God.
 
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Hentenza

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It would be nice to see less sarcasm in your posts.
Somehow arrogance brings about the sarcasm in me. Treating others as equals goes along way too.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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So you don’t care about unity, then.
What an absurd conclusion to draw.
There are plenty of instances in the Bible where God disliked what Israel did, but he strove with them instead of dismissing them out of hand. Israel was God’s chosen people, through whom the nations of the world would be blessed.
You are of course referring to old testament times, before the coming of Christ.
The Catholic Church is not mentioned.
You expect "Catholic Church" to be in the Old Testament?
God did away with the laws and rituals when Christ fulfilled the law,
Christ fulfilled them, they were not "done away with".
the Catholic Church stuck them back in
That is an absurd claim. Why did you make it?
and demands that everyone fall down and worship their way or you are not considered in communion with God.
You might want to examine the passages I quoted.
Sorry, but I’m good with God.
And one poster calls me arrogant!
I am blessed day and night as long as I put my faith in Him, not in a man made organization that seems to take joy in deciding for everyone else their standing with God.
Christ is the one who builds the Church, he said so - And I [Jesus is the one speaking] tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:18 RSV-CE
 
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Hentenza

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So you don’t care about unity, then. There are plenty of instances in the Bible where God disliked what Israel did, but he strove with them instead of dismissing them out of hand. Israel was God’s chosen people, through whom the nations of the world would be blessed. The Catholic Church is not mentioned. God did away with the laws and rituals when Christ fulfilled the law, the Catholic Church stuck them back in and demands that everyone fall down and worship their way or you are not considered in communion with God. Sorry, but I’m good with God. I am blessed day and night as long as I put my faith in Him, not in a man made organization that seems to take joy in deciding for everyone else their standing with God.
Don’t forget about the 1752 canon laws in the Catholic Church code of Canon Law. At least Israel only had 633 laws.
 
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Hentenza

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Very well, have it your own way.
This is not Burger King. I exhort you to consider the body of Christ outside of your church as equals in Christ and express the love for them mandated in scripture.
 
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The Liturgist

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Don’t forget about the 1752 canon laws in the Catholic Church code of Canon Law. At least Israel only had 633 laws.

The difference being a canon law is not the same as the 633 Jewish laws enumerated by the Rabbis, and also the current Code of Canon Law dates from the 1970s.

The Orthodox still use the ancient canons of the Apostles and the Ecumenical Councils, which are far fewer in number; additionally the word canon should not be read as “canon law” because the Greek word canon literally means “guidelines” and the Orthodox church will, depending on the specific circumstances, apply the canons with akrivia (exactness) or oikonomia (economy - meaning the relaxation of the rule so as to avoid doing more harm than good through legalism).

Also the contents of the ancient canons are extremely sensible and I believe should be followed by all churches. I will be doing a series highlighting some of them, but essentially, what they do is clarify for example that homosexuality and adultery and polygamy and incest are forbidden, that people who do such things or who castrate themselves or have themselves castrated for reasons other than medical necessity are disqualified from Holy Orders, that clergy may not manage the financial estates of those under their pastoral care (which is a common sense precaution which prevents presbyters from preying upon wealthy widows to obtain their legacy for personal enrichment), and also that clergy may not strike laity or other clergy or other persons whether to induce repentance or for other purposes under penalty of being defrocked. Thus, the flagellation and other forms of corporal punishment that allegedly happened in some Western churches is absolutely forbidden in the Holy Orthodox Church.

There are a number of other canons i am eager to share, but in general, these canons (the ones I just mentioned are examples of those which should default towards application with akrivia) and the principle of oikonomia as a defense against legalism have served us so well that I encourage every church to make use of them. All of the ancient churches either use or at one time used variants on them. Also canons 6 and 7 of Nicaea effectively preclude Papal supremacy, by officially declaring that the churches of Alexandria and Antioch in the case of canon 6, and the recently re-established (as of 425 AD) church of Jerusalem in the case of canon 7, have the same rights and privileges as the Church of Rome, and this principle obviously extends to bishops - also the canons absolutely forbid one bishop from interfering in the jurisdiction of another bishop. Indeed Pope St. Gregory the Great warned of the dangers of a bishop claiming universal jurisdiction after his colleague St. John the Faster, Patriarch of Constantinople, adopted the style "Ecumenical Patriarch", and this proved prophetic because at present the probable successor to Patriarch Bartholomew has been arguing that the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is not Primus Inter Pares but Primus Sine Paribus - first without equals rather than first among equals, which is entirely unacceptable to the other Orthodox.

This remark, made by the Archbishop of New York when he was Metropolitan of Bursa, contributed to the churches of Georgia, Bulgaria, Antioch and Russia boycotted the 2016 Great and Holy Synod in Crete, and since then relations between the EP and Jerusalem and Serbia have also soured. Fortunately, the monks of Mount Athos have considerably more influence than the Patriarch within the Church of Constantinople and act as a restraining mechanism, and it is probable that if the current Archbishop of New York does succeed Patriarch Bartholomew, that he will be restrained by the elders of the Holy Mountain.
 
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Hentenza

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The difference being a canon law is not the same as the 633 Jewish laws enumerated by the Rabbis, and also the current Code of Canon Law dates from the 1970s.
1983 to be exact.
The Orthodox still use the ancient canons of the Apostles and the Ecumenical Councils, which are far fewer in number; additionally the word canon should not be read as “canon law” because the Greek word canon literally means “guidelines” and the Orthodox church will, depending on the specific circumstances, apply the canons with akrivia (exactness) or oikonomia (economy - meaning the relaxation of the rule so as to avoid doing more harm than good through legalism).

Also the contents of the ancient canons are extremely sensible and I believe should be followed by all churches. I will be doing a series highlighting some of them, but essentially, what they do is clarify for example that homosexuality and adultery and polygamy and incest are forbidden, that people who do such things or who castrate themselves or have themselves castrated for reasons other than medical necessity are disqualified from Holy Orders, that clergy may not manage the financial estates of those under their pastoral care (which is a common sense precaution which prevents presbyters from preying upon wealthy widows to obtain their legacy for personal enrichment), and also that clergy may not strike laity or other clergy or other persons whether to induce repentance or for other purposes under penalty of being defrocked. Thus, the flagellation and other forms of corporal punishment that allegedly happened in some Western churches is absolutely forbidden in the Holy Orthodox Church.

There are a number of other canons i am eager to share, but in general, these canons (the ones I just mentioned are examples of those which should default towards application with akrivia) and the principle of oikonomia as a defense against legalism have served us so well that I encourage every church to make use of them. All of the ancient churches either use or at one time used variants on them. Also canons 6 and 7 of Nicaea effectively preclude Papal supremacy, by officially declaring that the churches of Alexandria and Antioch in the case of canon 6, and the recently re-established (as of 425 AD) church of Jerusalem in the case of canon 7, have the same rights and privileges as the Church of Rome, and this principle obviously extends to bishops - also the canons absolutely forbid one bishop from interfering in the jurisdiction of another bishop. Indeed Pope St. Gregory the Great warned of the dangers of a bishop claiming universal jurisdiction after his colleague St. John the Faster, Patriarch of Constantinople, adopted the style "Ecumenical Patriarch", and this proved prophetic because at present the probable successor to Patriarch Bartholomew has been arguing that the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is not Primus Inter Pares but Primus Sine Paribus - first without equals rather than first among equals, which is entirely unacceptable to the other Orthodox.

This remark, made by the Archbishop of New York when he was Metropolitan of Bursa, contributed to the churches of Georgia, Bulgaria, Antioch and Russia boycotted the 2016 Great and Holy Synod in Crete, and since then relations between the EP and Jerusalem and Serbia have also soured. Fortunately, the monks of Mount Athos have considerably more influence than the Patriarch within the Church of Constantinople and act as a restraining mechanism, and it is probable that if the current Archbishop of New York does succeed Patriarch Bartholomew, that he will be restrained by the elders of the Holy Mountain.
Thanks for the info. Interesting.
 
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The Liturgist

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I imagine not, and I hope you never see it. He became very ill; growled like an wild animal, and fled from the Altar. I was serving Mass with Pastor that Sunday, assisting with the distribution; very disturbing for all present.

Yep, that’s a demonaic. Did you have the opportunity to get him in for an exorcism? I would suggest, after obtaining legal advice*, training ushers to throw holy water on anyone who menaces the congregation as it is known to stun demons and it might give you time to free the victim.

* That said in a Coptic Orthodox church everyone gets holy water thrown on them by the priest at the end of the Divine Liturgy and frankly it’s a lot of fun, especially given the length of the service. That’s also when they break out the antidoron, the blessed bread from which the consecrated Lamb used in the Eucharist was cut, along with other prosphora baked together with the one selected for consecration; this bread, which is delicious, and freshly baked in the Coptic Orthodox tradition, along with smaller rolls of antidoron baked during the liturgy, as the demand is very high, is delicious. And to be clear, this is blessed bread, and not the Eucharist, and thus it is freely broken and distributed to all in attendance.

The original function of antidoron was to give people the strength to walk home, as in the past Christians had to walk to church, which could be a long journey, and would stand for much of the Liturgy. So there was a definite need for some carbohydrates, thus all ancient churches developed food to help attendees. In Western Europe this developed into various blessed dishes served to pilgrims such as the famed lace-shaped pasta served to pilgrims in a town in Italy, which is so difficult to make that the handful of women in the town who prepare it take all year to get ready for the pilgrimage. One also operates a restaurant where she serves it, and won Italy’s top culinary award.

A large percentage of Orthodox churches in the US serve delicious meals following the liturgy. The Copts and Eastern Orthodox are particularly good about this, as are the Ethiopians; indeed i try to visit a Coptic monastery whenever there are Ethiopian or Eritrean pilgrims because the food they bring with them, which they will share with everyone, is so much better than the beans the Coptic monks eat. The Syriacs tend to do it on special occasions or as a memorial for the departed, but their food is amazingly good.
 
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The Liturgist

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For starters, the Primacy of the Pope; he is the Bishop of Rome, primate of their communion, but no more than that. Another big one is their emphasis on works and earning merit for ones self, a loved one or a departed loved one. They still grant indulgences. Requesting the intercession of saints.

The Eucharist, Baptism, Confession and Holy Absolution, and even the value of the divine office are, for the most part, aligned with Scripture.

!00% correct. Also the annointing of the sick and those who fast with oil*, Holy Matrimony** and Ordination***.

* This is different from Extreme Unction, the annointing only of the dying, the Roman liturgy for which Martin Luther objected to, and I understand and am sympathetic to his objections; the Byzantine, Syriac and Coptic liturgies as I mentioned before are very different and very beautiful, consisting of five or seven sets of scripture readings and prayers, and are said over all the people at the end of Lent and on other occasions, and then the people are annointed with the Holy Oil, and also the sacrament is provided to anyone who is sick who requires it, and where possible the Eastern Orthodox will rally seven priests, one for each part of the liturgy, but even with one priest or bishop, the sacrament is very moving, ( I hope before I die to receive this mystery regardless of how many priests are available).

** This kind of falls into the category of “duh” since Holy Matrimony is establiehed as a sacred mystery throughout the Bible. Whether or not one counts it as a sacrament, it is definitely a mystery performed by the Church. Some Lutherans have a specific definition of Sacrament that requires matter such as water, bread or wine, and thus I can understand why this could be classified differently; in the Orthodox church we use the word “mystery” and do not always limit the number of mysteries at seven; indeed I lean towards saying everything in the Trebnik (the Book of Needs) is a mystery, such as the Great Blessing of Water on The Feast of the Baptism of Christ and the Pannikhida (memorial service) and Burial.

*** We see Holy Orders, or ordination, as another example of a mystery, which again your church might not count as a sacrament for reasons of Lutheran doctrine, and we use the term mystery sometimes translated as sacrament, but ordination, whether it is a sacrament, mystery or sacramental, is definitely Biblically based, for we see Christ choose the Disciples and St. Paul, we see the Holy Apostles ordain the Holy Apostle St. Matthias to replace Judas Iscariot, and we see the Twelve Apostles (including St. Matthias) ordain the Seven Deacons, including St. Philip and of particular note St. Stephen the Protomartyr, the first man to be killed for expressing a belief in Christ, later in acts, with St. James the Great being the first Apostle to be killed. Later the Twelve accept St. Paul and other secondary Apostles, largely from the Seventy, and we see St. Paul specifying qualifications for ordination in the oft misunderstood epistle to St. Timothy which people misinterpret as prohibiting Episcopal celibacy on the basis of a misinformed eisegesis, when what it actually did was prohibit bishops from being among the early Christians who were received into the church with multiple wives - the Early Church did not require them to divorce their wives but they were disqualified from Holy Orders according to 1 Timothy and the Apostolic Canons.
 
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A New Dawn

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What an absurd conclusion to draw.
Your definition of unity is not unity. It is a hostile takeover.

You are of course referring to old testament times, before the coming of Christ.

You expect "Catholic Church" to be in the Old Testament?
Old Testament, New Testament, it’s not in either of them.

Christ fulfilled them, they were not "done away with".
They were for the Jews, not the Gentiles. And yes, I did say fulfilled.

That is an absurd claim. Why did you make it?
You can look back over your previous posts to see why I say that. A work/law is something you must do in order to be saved. And the Catholic Church has a lot of “must do’s” in it.

You might want to examine the passages I quoted.
Those passages are equally applicable to my church.

Christ is the one who builds the Church, he said so - And I [Jesus is the one speaking] tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:18 RSV-CE
According to the context of the whole passage that verse is in, rock could have a number of meanings. For instance, it could mean revelation, since God revealed to Peter who He (Christ) was.
 
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ARBITER01

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There probably aren't going to be any Protestants in heaven, or Catholics, or Orthodox etc. Most likely none of that is going to exist there, and all of our precious dividing doctrines, practices and traditions will get burned up like wood, hay and stubble.

That's correct.

No one can buy or work their way into heaven. Either we have an ongoing relationship with Jesus or we don't. Either He knows us already or He doesn't.

There's nothing in our denominational teachings or anything that we repeatedly do in our churches that ensures our way into heaven.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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That's correct.

No one can buy or work their way into heaven. Either we have an ongoing relationship with Jesus or we don't. Either He knows us already or He doesn't.

There's nothing in our denominational teachings or anything that we repeatedly do in our churches that ensures our way into heaven.
One speculation promotes another. No facts, no scripture, but plenty of speculation and opinion.
 
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Hentenza

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The Liturgist

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Your definition of unity is not unity. It is a hostile takeover.

The Roman Catholics aren’t the ones wanting access to other people’s communion.

Old Testament, New Testament, it’s not in either of them.

Belief in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is an article of faith in the Nicene Creed - which does not necessarily mean the Roman Catholic Church, but the idea of the Church Catholic, however you define it: most Evangelicals tend to believe it is an invisible entity of all believers, or consists of the local church. And the New Testament does speak of a single Church - the Body of Christ. Catholic means “according to the Whole”, and thus whoever claims their church is Catholic, whether Protestant, such as Lutherans and Anglicans, or Roman Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox, or Oriental Orthodox, or the Assyrian Church of the East, is actually saying their particular church is a part of the entire church - but they will disagree on what the entire church is, with the definition varying between each of the groups I just mentioned (except for “Branch Ecclesiology” which is known to exist, in several cases without official endorsement, in all of the above, which does not mean it is correct, but it is popular. I am not endorsing it but merely informing about it. But what everyone must acknowledge is the Scriptural reality of one Body of Christ - the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, even if they disagree on its nature, relationship to specific denominations or identity.

As a historical note:

I would say until the 20th century most laity regarded their church as representing the Church Catholic either exclusively or in an idealized state, even if this was not its official doctrine or the view of its founder (for example, Martin Luther defined the Church based on orthopraxis rather than connections to Lutheranism so churches other than Lutherans could be entirely Catholic and Orthodox according to the Lutheran model, but an extreme mistrust of non-Lutheran churches began to appear in the 18th and 19th century likely in reaction to the forced union of Lutheran and Calvinist churches and the Pietist movement, although the most pro-Lutheran book I have simply refers to churches of other beliefs as “Heterodox” leaving open the possibility of an Orthodox church compatible with Lutheranism existing. Since that time, we’ve seen some conservative Anglicans who left the Episcopal church and some conservative Lutherans in a state of full communion, which means more than, for example, the ELCA being in full communion with the UMC or the ECUSA, since the ELCA is part of the Lutheran World Federation which has a great many members which are in direct communion with, or are the result of mergers between, Lutheran and Calvinist churches, and which are what the Lutherans call “crypto-Calvinist.”
 
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The Liturgist

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So debunk it.

1 Corinthians, Luke-Acts, Matthew, John, Mark, 2 Corinthians, the Apocalypse, et cetera…

There are actions normally required for salvation which are done in churches, such as baptism and the Eucharist, which according to Scripture are the means of grace and which are accepted as requirements for salvation by most Sola Scriptura Christians.

Attacking the Roman Catholic Church is morally wrong because of the problem of anti-Catholic persecution (so is attacking the Protestant or Orthodox churches), but if one wishes to attack all churches, that’s an extraordinary claim which would require extraordinary evidence.
 
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Hentenza

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1 Corinthians, Luke-Acts, Matthew, John, Mark, 2 Corinthians, the Apocalypse, et cetera…

There are actions normally required for salvation which are done in churches, such as baptism and the Eucharist, which according to Scripture are the means of grace and which are accepted as requirements for salvation by most Sola Scriptura Christians.

Attacking the Roman Catholic Church is morally wrong because of the problem of anti-Catholic persecution (so is attacking the Protestant or Orthodox churches), but if one wishes to attack all churches, that’s an extraordinary claim which would require extraordinary evidence.
My brother in Christ, citing general scripture without comment or exegesis as a defense does not in any way help you debunk what the previous poster was promoting. Please be specific and I will be happy to engage.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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What I mean is why is it accessible to someone possessed by a demon, but barred to a Christian indwelt by the Holy Spirit?
This hardly even qualifies for an answer; you really don't have a clue. The individual misrepresented himself to Pastor; the devil is the father of lies. How would you deal with a situation like this? Crap your pants? Sorry, but I am feeling goaded and am losing patience; even our Lord lost patience with those who missed the point (the money changers).
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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According to what I looked up there are at least dozens of synods just in North America. And obviously various Lutheran synods reject other Lutheran synods. Looks to be a bit of a mess.
Kind of like the reformed protestants, who disagree and just start another Church, or form a cult of personality.
 
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