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A conversation about unity.

Servus

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No, some Catholics do say it, but it ain't true. Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church from John Paul II repeats what I posted from Trent.
Interestingly like Francis, John Paul II has been criticized, even by Protestants, for being too inclusive.
Many Catholics believe being ecumenical is to as you say broaden the conditions of salvation.
The standard spiel I've heard many times is the that Catholic understanding is that Protestants are their bothers and sisters in Christ. So all Christians who profess faith in Christ, who are properly baptized, are Christians and members of the Body of Christ. But to be fully incorporated into the Body of Christ one must be a member of the Catholic Church. Now if a Protestant knows/believes the Catholic Church is the one and only true church and Jesus wants them to become a member of the RCC and deliberately rejects that, then their salvation is in question. But that's a different position from a Protestant who doesn't know/believes that, and therefore is not deliberately cutting himself off by deliberately refusing to do what Jesus wants him to do. And so that person, even though they haven't been fully incorporated into the Catholic Church, they still have a saving relationship with God. So if that Christian is not Catholic through no fault of their own, but they're otherwise responding to God's grace, then they'll be saved.

Which can be found here: What Does the Church Teach About Salvation For Protestants? - Catholic Answers.

Personally I don't believe the Roman Catholic Church / Holy Roman Empire is the same Church established by Christ. Because it is too far removed from the teachings of the First Century Church which held up to at least the 4th century. However I believe that Christianity itself, which the RCC is a part of, is the Church, the Ecclesia, the community of those who believe in Christ, are the Church that Jesus established.
 
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Valletta

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Mary can be seen as the mother of the covenant family of God.

Israel is referred to as a woman in several Old Testament passages, particularly in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Hosea. A lot of what John says in Revelation is found in the OT.
Mary is an actual woman, a real person. Jesus and Satan are real and in Revelation as well. Mary is the actual birth mother of Jesus. As I said, there are allusions to Israel. We see a "woman" referred to in John as well. The pain in childbearing sure sounds like that of a woman. She is the Ark of the New Covenant.
 
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concretecamper

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The Church teaches anyone who is validly Baptized is incorporated into The Body of Christ. Also, I've never understood the term "fully incorporated " anyway. Either you are incorporated or you're not. To me, more eccumenical jargon.
Now if a Protestant knows/believes the Catholic Church is the one and only true church and Jesus wants them to become a member of the RCC and deliberately rejects that, then their salvation is in question.
Yes, this is only one class of person. And in reality, do you know of any protestant that fulfills these conditions? This statement is in the CCC, and it is in there to address no salvation outside the Church, but it really doesn't clear things up in my mind
. But that's a different position from a Protestant who doesn't know/believes that, and therefore is not deliberately cutting himself off by deliberately refusing to do what Jesus wants him to do.
Yep, I've heard that too. However, to believe such a thing is to diminish the Power of The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is constantly drawing people to His Church, to think He doesn't draw some protestants is to me unbelievable.
1. Again, fully incorporated= valid Baptism

2. .What is a saving relationship? Is it a relationship that makes sense to me or is it a relationship that Christ and His Church has laid out.

3. Responding to God's grace how? I'm not the judge, but I have to believe that God is calling all (not just some) to the most personal relationship with Him (which is the Eucharist). I also don't believe that I am free to decide what responding to His grace means to me. It's not about me and what feels good to me, It's about Him. And in Scripture, Jesus established a Church. A visible and authoritative Church. A Church that Baptizes, a Church that teaches, a Church that can bind and loose things here on earth, a Church which Jesus promised to be with until the end of the age. I take Jesus at His word.
 
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Servus

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"Woman" appears 411 times in the OT and 113 times in the NT of the NRSVCE for a total of 524 times.


In speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel writes:

I passed by you, and saw you flailing about in your blood. As you lay in your blood, I said to you, “Live! 7 and grow up like a plant of the field.” You grew up and became tall and arrived at full womanhood; your breasts were formed, and your hair had grown; yet you were naked and bare. Ezekiel 16:6-7 (NRSVCE).
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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She's not mine.
That's an interesting denial. I wonder why you are so keen to make it?
 
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Servus

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I'm drawn towards Christ and following what Christ said in the Gospels and obeying it and drawn towards what Paul, John, Peter and James taught. But I'm not drawn to particular Roman Catholic dogma that is not actually found in the Gospels or in Holy Scripture. In fact I see it as foreign to what is actually taught by Jesus and His Apostles.
1. Again, fully incorporated= valid Baptism
I've been told by Catholics that valid baptism is being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit by any Christian whether Protestant or Catholic. Or put another way, valid baptism is exactly what is called for in scripture. No more and no less.
2. .What is a saving relationship? Is it a relationship that makes sense to me or is it a relationship that Christ and His Church has laid out.
A saving relationship in Christ is clearly and conclusively spelled out by Paul and John especially. And Protestantism adheres to all of it. What it doesn't adhere to completely are RCC councils, catechisms, dogmas, traditions and practices that where established centuries afterwards.
3. Responding to God's grace how?
By responding to God's grace as Paul taught about responding to grace. If you went by that alone, you wouldn't see a problem.
I agree with you on all of that. But I don't think that's exclusive to the branch of Christianity that calls itself the Roman Catholic Church. History tells me that what's the Roman Catholic Church didn't come into existence until after the 5th centaury of when Christ established His Church. And that the Eastern Orthodox Church is closer to the original Church established by Christ than the RCC.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I read these words and think, Blessed Mary most highly. She went through a lot.
Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.
Revelation 11:19-12:2 RSV-CE

she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Revelation 12:5-6 RSV-CE

The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood. But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon had poured from his mouth. Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.
Revelation 12:15-17 RSV-CE

I am pleased to be among the "rest of her children".
 
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Valletta

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I agree with you on all of that. But I don't think that's exclusive to the branch of Christianity that calls itself the Roman Catholic Church.
We call ourselves the "Catholic Church." The Roman rite is by far the most common but is one of many rites of the Catholic Church.
Jesus in the Holy Eucharist has been at the heart of the Catholic Church since the first century. Both the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church have validly ordained priests who can consecrate the host.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I am familiar with the position you hold - Thanks.

I believe differently as indicated.
 
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Servus

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Many Catholics believe being ecumenical is to as you say broaden the conditions of salvation.
I think it's more like Catholics realize they can't legitimately say that other Christians aren't saved or are maybe barely saved or whatever, contrary to what Jesus and His Apostles said about the conditions of salvation.

And what's really happening is they are actually narrowing the conditions of salvation more to what Jesus and His Apostles said.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I think it's more like Catholics realize they can't legitimately say that other Christians aren't saved or are maybe barely saved or whatever,
That's just nonsense. It is NOT what the Catholic Church teaches.
contrary to what Jesus and His Apostles said about the conditions of salvation.
I doubt your ability to discern what Jesus had to say about the "conditions of salvation".
And what's really happening is they are actually narrowing the conditions of salvation more to what Jesus and His Apostles said.
 
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Servus

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What were the requirements for partaking in the Eucharist in the first century? Was there anything beyond what Jesus and Paul said about it?
 
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Servus

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Strong in Him

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That's an interesting denial. I wonder why you are so keen to make it?
I'm not keen to make it - I was replying to a post which said, something like, "we can make a case from Scripture for Mary being OUR spiritual mother".
She's not mine; simple fact.

And it's interesting that you have ignored what I said about our being created and given life by God.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I'm not keen to make it - I was replying to a post which said, something like, "we can make a case from Scripture for Mary being OUR spiritual mother".
That is true. Holy scripture makes the case for Blessed Mary being the mother of the faithful.
She's not mine; simple fact.
That's a pity but it is your free choice decision.
And it's interesting that you have ignored what I said about our being created and given life by God.
I didn't reply because there's nothing in it that needs a reply.
 
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Servus

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Because of what your posts contain. Having read many of them I came to that conclusion.
In my experience you yourself have difficulty deciphering what I say and tend to get it wrong.
 
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childeye 2

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When people ask me, "Of what faith are you?" <--- I see a loaded question. My response is usually ---> "As I see it, since there is a singular Creator of the universe that can be regarded as Thee Eternal Power, then objectively speaking there can only be one Faith". I believe the Holy Spirit gifted me this sight, that I count as wisdom.

Therefore, I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence, but mind manipulation is a real thing, and I do not want to accept nor affirm the false premise in the question. Similarly, I see a sentiment of unity being expressed in the term Catholic objectively meaning the one universal church in unity through the Holy Spirit of Truth, but then I also see that there's also a subjective sentiment of disunity being expressed through the label ---> "I'm a Catholic".
 
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