A concept that will greatly help in understanding end time prophecy.

[Keachian]

You realize Jesus came to die right? That he came and knew every detail of what was going to happen to him.

If God was going to condemn the Jews for all eternity, for something he ordained to happen, he would be a hypocrite.

God is not a hypocrite bro.

It's not just the Jews that are complicit in the death of the Holy One, but all of humanity, is God just in holding men accountable for this complicity? Yes, because God is definitionally Just.

 

[Shocker]

Indeed! This is the true problem of "American Christianity"...it simply doesn't accomodate the history of Israel nor the church, and therefore, forges headlong into mainly the dispensational construct, introduced by John Nelson Darby, and furthered by Cyrius Scofield.

It is a truly erroneus view, that ignores on prophecies that God fulfilled and pushes them into the future as if the never happpend.

*The dispresion of Israel by Assyria.

*The abomination of desolation of Antiochus Epiphanes.

*The destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

Things that are right there if you red the scriptures and not impose on them.

As we know, the disciples were uneducated men for the most part, givien revelation by the Holy Spirit. They proceeded by the power of God to oppose
those who were "educated" yet without the Spirit,

What we have today are teachers that quench the spirit because they've been to seminary...OR...as a good friend of mine calls it "cemetary".

The dispensational approach to eschatology, is simply very bad reading of scripture.

Except Scofield predicted the return of the Jews, something that had to happen according to "his" eschatology.

Fulfilled in 1948, when the Jews returned, and Israel became a nation in one day, with a penstroke.

Isa 66:8 "Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons.



So far, Ebed has predicted nothing.

 

[Shocker]

towards the complicity of the Jews in the murder of the Holy One of Israel.

You then go on to say.

It's not just the Jews that are complicit in the death of the Holy One

Id choose my words more carefully, given the implications that contrast in just two of your statements.

 

[ebedmelech]

So far, Ebed has predicted nothing.

That's right! I predict nothing because I know there's nothing to predict. Jesus will return...when...that's in the hands of He and The Father!

You're the one who was hooting something was about to happen with Israel...how's that working out?

When you figure it out Shocker...Jesus will have come, judged the world in righteousness, and it won't really matter...but *perhaps* you can ask Him about it.

 

[Shocker]

That's right! I predict nothing because I know there's nothing to predict. Jesus will return...when...that's in the hands of He and The Father!

You're the one who was hooting something was about to happen with Israel...how's that working out?

When you figure it out Shocker...Jesus will have come, judged the world in righteousness, and it won't really matter...but *perhaps* you can ask Him about it.

I have events that have yet to unfold on my side.

You can only hope Im wrong.

 

[ebedmelech]

I have events that have yet to unfold on my side.

You can only hope Im wrong.

No...I hope nothing...you're wrong..and I'm TELLING YOU nothing is going to happen that has ANY bearing on scripture.

The "Jerusalem ABOVE is free"...you're gonna find that out!

 

[Keachian]

You then go on to say.





Id choose my words more carefully, given the implications that contrast in just two of your statements.

I don't get it

 

[Old Timer]

How many times are you going force me to post this passage?

Luke 11:24-26 KJV
24. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

It has already been explained to you that there are two temples: both the entire body of Messiah, of which we are all members in particular, and your own body temple as Paul clearly teaches. Your own scapegoat `Aza'zel coming back from the dry-arid desert places with seven other spirits more wicked than himself is your problem to deal with, not mine or anyone else, it is personal just as is all the Gospel of Yeshua, (the kingdom of God is within you as Yeshua clearly states in Luke 17:20-21).

So that's a definite yes that you preach that the body of Christ is also the seat of the man of sin.. that's nice.. and of course the man of sin is tied to the coming of Christ as he is destroyed at that time.. and that is in the Day of the LORD which you also falsely teach as being here right now..

It's truly amazing what men will speak of concerning the body of Christ, His church and bride to be.. in that Day, the Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ.. and we are persuaded that He who hath begun a GOOD WORK in you shall perform it even until the Day of Jesus Christ.

The god of this present evil world is as desparate as ever.. claiming that the body of Christ is where the man of sin has his seat..

 

[Shocker]

No...I hope nothing...you're wrong..and I'm TELLING YOU nothing is going to happen

Famous last words.


So your prediction is "nothing is going to happen."

Got it.

 

[Shocker]

I don't get it

Apparently

 

[Keachian]

Apparently

Yes, apparently I have contradiction in my theology, I don't see it.

 

[Douggg]

So in the Bible, as in modern times, the term Jew does not mean an Israelite, even though all Jews are Israelites. The term Jew means a descendant of one of the two southern tribes, Judah and Benjamin.

Not quiet so simple, James. A Jew is someone who mother is a Jew - their lineage on their mother's side going back to those two tribes, and even then not so simple. The tribe is on the father's side. That's why there are Jews with last names from the other tribes.

It goes back to them coming out of Babylonian captivity and Nehemiah and Ezra shaming them left as caretakers in Jerusalem who had taken foreign wives and were astounded, saying hadn't they learned any lesson from Israel and Judah both going into captivity by the influx of the foreign gods their wives brought with them.

So the men of "Israel" sent their wives and their children by them away. And from then on, it became a person is a Jew by their mother being a Jew. The tribe however, depends on the father's lineage which could be by any of the twelve tribes.

All of the twelve tribes are over there right now, but most Jews couldn't say for certain what tribe they of - which is on the father's side. The priests for example who will conduct the animal sacrifices must be of the tribe Levi - which is neither Judah or Ruben - in the end times reinstatement of the sacrifices which the Antichrist will stop.

The nation over there is named Israel appropriately so because it is all twelve tribes - although it has not been segregated according to tribe. The Anti-messiah has to be crowned the illicit King of Israel, Son of David - to sit on David's Throne, which is over united Israel, Solomon being the last king - who himself brought the problems upon Israel by allowing the gods of his many wives to dot the land, which later his son (Reheboam was Solomon's son) and the administrator (Jeroboam was the son of Nebat) - ended up dividing the united nation into the two separate nations. That crowned king illicit King of Israel, Son of David, the Anti-messiah, is in Revelation 6, the rider on the white horse.

 

[Biblewriter]

Not quiet so simple, James. A Jew is someone who mother is a Jew - their lineage on their mother's side going back to those two tribes, and even then not so simple. The tribe is on the father's side. That's why there are Jews with last names from the other tribes.

It goes back to them coming out of Babylonian captivity and Nehemiah and Ezra shaming them left as caretakers in Jerusalem who had taken foreign wives and were astounded, saying hadn't they learned any lesson from Israel and Judah both going into captivity by the influx of the foreign gods their wives brought with them.

So the men of "Israel" sent their wives and their children by them away. And from then on, it became a person is a Jew by their mother being a Jew. The tribe however, depends on the father's lineage which could be by any of the twelve tribes.

All of the twelve tribes are over there right now, but most Jews couldn't say for certain what tribe they of - which is on the father's side. The priests for example who will conduct the animal sacrifices must be of the tribe Levi - which is neither Judah or Ruben - in the end times reinstatement of the sacrifices which the Antichrist will stop.

The nation over there is named Israel appropriately so because it is all twelve tribes - although it has not been segregated according to tribe. The Anti-messiah has to be crowned the illicit King of Israel, Son of David - to sit on David's Throne, which is over united Israel, Solomon being the last king - who himself brought the problems upon Israel by allowing the gods of his many wives to dot the land, which later his son (Reheboam was Solomon's son) and the administrator (Jeroboam was the son of Nebat) - ended up dividing the united nation into the two separate nations. That crowned king illicit King of Israel, Son of David, the Anti-messiah, is in Revelation 6, the rider on the white horse.

You cite "historical" information without any citation of a source, which is most certainly not the scriptures. And you make assertions about the present that you also cannot prove, that is, that all twelve tribes are included in those returned to the land. But you ignore the simple fact that the actual meaning of the word "Jew" is a member of the ancient kingdom of Judea.

You also are missing the simple and obvious fact that the scriptures themseves use the word "Jew" before the time from which you trace the word. It is used once in Jeremiah and eight times in Esther.

 

[Douggg]

But you ignore the simple fact that the actual meaning of the word "Jew" is a member of the ancient kingdom of Judea.

James, there were Jews born and died in Babylon, and were never a member of the southern kingdom. The Kingdom of Judah was a kingdom, a nation. Being a Jew is not a nationality. It is by a person's relatives. If a person's mother is a Jew, then they are a Jew. It is by bloodline.

The sending away of the foreign wives and the children by them is the chapters 9 and 10 of Ezra,

 

[Biblewriter]

James, there were Jews born and died in Babylon, and were never a member of the southern kingdom. The Kingdom of Judah was a kingdom, a nation. Being a Jew is not a nationality. It is by a person's relatives. If a person's mother is a Jew, then they are a Jew. It is by bloodline.

The sending away of the foreign wives and the children by them is the chapters 9 and 10 of Ezra,

Yes it is. But where is the beginning of the definition that a Hew is someone whose mother was a Jew? That is not recorded in scripture.

But the definition of the meaning of the word was carried in to the descendants of the original Jews. Ask any orthodox hew today, and he will tell you that the word Jew means a member of either the tribe of Judah or of Benjamin. That is what the word means.

Now as to the definition of who qualifies as a Jew the rule you have stated is what is used today, and when it began is unknown to me. But that is not what the word means.

The scriptures very clearly describe Judah in her land during Daniel's seventieth week. And these tribulation scriptures never say "Israel." They always say "Judah," "Jerusalem," or "the land."

But the scriptures about the return always say "Israel," and they very clearly specify that this means "all of Israel," not part of it. And Isaiah 66 very clearly teaches that the return of Israel will come after Messiah comes, rather than before.

 

[Douggg]

Yes it is. But where is the beginning of the definition that a Hew is someone whose mother was a Jew? That is not recorded in scripture.

But the definition of the meaning of the word was carried in to the descendants of the original Jews. Ask any orthodox hew today, and he will tell you that the word Jew means a member of either the tribe of Judah or of Benjamin. That is what the word means.

James, I don't actually know of a place in the bible that says a Jew is because a person's mother is a jew. The episode in Ezra 9 and 10 is an indication that's where the "tradition" began as far I can ascertain from the bible.

I don't know what Jews you are speaking to, but the number I have discussed with at all of their sites, go by a person is a Jew because their mother is a Jew -or a person can also become a Jew by religious conversion to Judaism, which has it's roots at Mt. Sinai and what they called the national revelation of God to their people.

The Jews, by bloodline, it appears it has to go back to the people brought out of egypt and made the chosen people of God. They were told not to marry into foreign people. That part is in the bible.

Mainly though, what you and I are looking at is not the convert issue - I don't think either of us would buy into that concept of who is a Jew.

Now as to the definition of who qualifies as a Jew the rule you have stated is what is used today, and when it began is unknown to me. But that is not what the word means.

From Judaism 101: "A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism."

The scriptures very clearly describe Judah in her land during Daniel's seventieth week. And these tribulation scriptures never say "Israel." They always say "Judah," "Jerusalem," or "the land."

James, not exclusively Judah. The 70 weeks in Daniel are determined on Daniel's people Israel and Jerusalem.

20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God;
21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

And in Revelation 12, the woman in the preamble verses clearly indicate Israel.

But the scriptures about the return always say "Israel," and they very clearly specify that this means "all of Israel," not part of it. And Isaiah 66 very clearly teaches that the return of Israel will come after Messiah comes, rather than before.

Got to be careful on that concept. All Israel is all of the tribes in the collective sense, not every single person who is of the twelve tribes.

Isaiah 66:7-8 is before Jesus returns, the part referring to the nation of Israel over there, is the earth brought forth and the nation born in a single day in those verses - May 14, 1948. It was not the parable of the fig tree though (ofter times mistaken as), because the fig tree is actually Jerusalem, which did not get back into the hands of the Jews until 1967.

Which all ties back to the completion of the 70th week (1) Daniel's people Israel (in the text) and (2) Jerusalem.

The Anti-messiah is the illicit King of Israel (the unified country), Son of David. Jesus will defeat the Anti-messiah (temporary illicit King of Israel during his rise, and the beast in his fall), thus Israel has to be a nation again - before Jesus returns.

We are 65 years into that stage of Israel having become a unified country again and are waiting for the ten king (leader) government, final form of the EU (the latter time of the kingdom of the transgressors in Daniel 8:23) to materialize.

Isaiah66:
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

 

[Biblewriter]

James, I don't actually know of a place in the bible that says a Jew is because a person's mother is a jew. The episode in Ezra 9 and 10 is an indication that's where the "tradition" began as far I can ascertain from the bible.

I don't know what Jews you are speaking to, but the number I have discussed with at all of their sites, go by a person is a Jew because their mother is a Jew -or a person can also become a Jew by religious conversion to Judaism, which has it's roots at Mt. Sinai and what they called the national revelation of God to their people.

The Jews, by bloodline, it appears it has to go back to the people brought out of egypt and made the chosen people of God. They were told not to marry into foreign people. That part is in the bible.

Mainly though, what you and I are looking at is not the convert issue - I don't think either of us would buy into that concept of who is a Jew.

From Judaism 101: "A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism."
James, not exclusively Judah. The 70 weeks in Daniel are determined on Daniel's people Israel and Jerusalem.

20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God;
21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

And in Revelation 12, the woman in the preamble verses clearly indicate Israel.

Got to be careful on that concept. All Israel is all of the tribes in the collective sense, not every single person who is of the twelve tribes.

Isaiah 66:7-8 is before Jesus returns, the part referring to the nation of Israel over there, is the earth brought forth and the nation born in a single day in those verses - May 14, 1948. It was not the parable of the fig tree though (ofter times mistaken as), because the fig tree is actually Jerusalem, which did not get back into the hands of the Jews until 1967.

Which all ties back to the completion of the 70th week (1) Daniel's people Israel (in the text) and (2) Jerusalem.

The Anti-messiah is the illicit King of Israel (the unified country), Son of David. Jesus will defeat the Anti-messiah (temporary illicit King of Israel during his rise, and the beast in his fall), thus Israel has to be a nation again - before Jesus returns.

We are 65 years into that stage of Israel having become a unified country again and are waiting for the ten king (leader) government, final form of the EU (the latter time of the kingdom of the transgressors in Daniel 8:23) to materialize.

Isaiah66:
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

You are talking about how they define who is or is not a real "Jew." I am talking about what a "Jew" is, not about how to know if a particular persn s a "Jew." This is apples and oranges.

And if you carefully trace the words through the prophetic scriptures, you will indeed see that it is indeed correct that the word "Israel" is never used in connection with the sufferings of the tribulation period.

If you do not want to accept it, so be it. But I guarantee that if you check, you will see that this is correct. It is not something I have said casually, nor is it an opinion. This is something that I have personally checked all the way through all the scriptures about the suffering that will take place during Daniel's seventieth week. |

If you think I am wrong, quote a scripture about end time suffering that uses the word "Israel."

 

[Notrash]

Yes it is. But where is the beginning of the definition that a Hew is someone whose mother was a Jew? That is not recorded in scripture.

But the definition of the meaning of the word was carried in to the descendants of the original Jews. Ask any orthodox hew today, and he will tell you that the word Jew means a member of either the tribe of Judah or of Benjamin. That is what the word means.

Now as to the definition of who qualifies as a Jew the rule you have stated is what is used today, and when it began is unknown to me. But that is not what the word means.

The scriptures very clearly describe Judah in her land during Daniel's seventieth week. And these tribulation scriptures never say "Israel." They always say "Judah," "Jerusalem," or "the land."

But the scriptures about the return always say "Israel," and they very clearly specify that this means "all of Israel," not part of it. And Isaiah 66 very clearly teaches that the return of Israel will come after Messiah comes, rather than before.

Thanks for this. It helps confirm some thought and contemplatiins , referred to in another thread. You've helped a few times in my growth & understanding, but not in the futurist perspective, but rather the contrasting. I guess that's God working!!!

 

[Biblewriter]

Thanks for this. It helps confirm some thought and contemplatiins , referred to in another thread. You've helped a few times in my growth & understanding, but not in the futurist perspective, but rather the contrasting. I guess that's God working!!!

I'm not sure how I helped you, but I am glad I did.

 

[Douggg]

You are talking about how they define who is or is not a real "Jew." I am talking about what a "Jew" is, not about how to know if a particular persn s a "Jew." This is apples and oranges.

And if you carefully trace the words through the prophetic scriptures, you will indeed see that it is indeed correct that the word "Israel" is never used in connection with the sufferings of the tribulation period.

If you do not want to accept it, so be it. But I guarantee that if you check, you will see that this is correct. It is not something I have said casually, nor is it an opinion. This is something that I have personally checked all the way through all the scriptures about the suffering that will take place during Daniel's seventieth week. |

If you think I am wrong, quote a scripture about end time suffering that uses the word "Israel."

No, I am not talking about defining who is a "real" Jew or not. I am talking about who is a Jew.

What? What Jews and Gentiles are - are human beings.

The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. The time of Jacob's troubles is the time of Israel during the great tribulation. Who is the woman in Revelation 12, James?

I gave you the direct quote from Daniel 9 that Daniel's people is Israel. It's in the text.