A Common Assumption Among Catholicism & Protestants

[jamiec]

While I agree with you that the Protestant idea isn't consistent with more historically oriented Protestant theologies. However I can attest that this language does exist within the larger Protestant world.

I was afraid it might be found among Protestants, but I hoped it might not be. There is a basis in the Bible for a doctrine of Divine Wrath, in Christianity no less than in the OT; but when the Wrath of God is allowed to swamp and dilute His self-revelation in Christ, something is wrong. IMHO, there is a theological priority of God’s Love over His Wrath, so some attributes reveal God more authentically than others. So I think that the Cross reveals God more profoundly than (say) the sacking of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar. Some things in the Bible, and some things about God, take priority over others: Leviticus is as canonical as Romans, which is as canonical as St John’s Gospel - but “canonical” =////= “theologically important”.

I used to have difficulty with this business of the “attitudes” of the Father & the Son - what has helped me, is the realisation that Jesus is the absolutely faithful & accurate “image” of His Father. Therefore, the self-sacrificing unreserved saving Love shown by the Son, is totally the “attitude” of the Father. So the picture that bothers so many Christians, that the gracious and compassionate Son is a “front” for the furious and vengeful Father, is not true. There is, and can be, no “split” whatsoever between the Persons of the Trinity - the “attitude” of one, is the “attitude” of all. The Love shown by the Son, is the proof that the Father’s Love is as true & as great. Jesus is the one person of whom it can be said with absolute truth, “He is his father’s son”.

Indeed, back in my Evangelical days I attended a Bible study where the take away was that Jesus is actively holding back God the Father from smiting us. That is, the Father wants to smash us all to pieces, but Jesus is holding Him back. And I don't mean that this was given hyperbolically, I mean it was given literally--in those exact words. And this wasn't said in a dreadful way, but as a "Look at how much Jesus loves us, that He stops His own Father from destroying us".

The Gospel gets turned into a way of talking about Jesus protecting us from God, as though God is the real enemy that we needed to be saved from; not sin, death, and the devil as the Scriptures teach and the Church has always confessed.

I’m very sorry to hear all this.

This is stuff that gets taught in real churches. It's a view of God that gets taught, presented, and filters itself down into the pews. The message that lots of Christians are getting, in pulpits around the world, is that God is very, very, very angry; but God's anger passes over us because of Jesus, and thus Jesus is there protecting us from a God who wants to send us to hell. And so the spiritual struggles of many Christians in those sorts of churches is a struggle of constant guilt and fear, that salvation is only assured if we are really, really, really sure we have the right religion and believe the right things about Jesus; whether the church teaches that one can throw away their salvation, or one that says "once saved always saved", the outcome is more-or-less the same: Salvation is about our positive response to God, because God has given an opportunity to sinners whom God is going to toss into eternal hell a chance to avoid that fate--if they sign on the dotted line and join the right religion and have the right religious doctrines.

In other words, there are a lot of churches out there where people simply aren't hearing the Gospel, and worse, are completely confused about what the Gospel even is. Their views of God, of Jesus, and of the Gospel are so misshapen and distorted that all they can see is an angry God of wrath, and Jesus as their personal body guard to protect them from it.

Consequently, it shouldn't be surprising then that many non-Christians, having almost only experienced Christianity in that misshapen form, think that's what Christianity is. Should it be entirely shocking, then, when many, who through despair or simply being unable to conform to the kind of toxic religiosity of their church, end up walking away, and throwing away their faith altogether?

No surprise, at all.

When the Gospel is being preached, then people are hearing and believing and trusting in Christ. The Gospel breeds joy, hope, faith, and love. Not fear, not despair, not dread.

/rant

-CryptoLutheran

Something else: God’s “jealousy”. To judge from the pre-Exilic Prophets, God was “torn” between His abhorrence of the sins of His People, and His unbreakable, irreversible, covenant with David and his descendants - on the face of it, the extinction of Judah looks like a breach of the covenant. And the salvation of Judah in the reign of Hezekiah may have seemed to be proof that, no matter how desperate the danger, God would save Judah, its king, & its Temple. God was totally “committed” to acting Righteously, and to His covenant.

The Cross looks very like the perfect reconciliation of God’s Righteous Judgement upon all sin (notably that of His Chosen People), with His unreserved and unbreakable covenantal Love. A clue to the unreserved character of God’s Love, is that this is the kind of love demanded from the Israelites in Deuteronomy 6.4-5, & re-affirmed by Christ: if each of the Israelites is commanded to “love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength”, IOW, without the least reservation, then God’s Love for His People can hardly be less unreserved. That love is so boundless, that no mere man could possibly love like that. But God can. And the God-man does.

 

[jamiec]

Basically most all churches (catholics and protestants) really when looked at what they are saying, are all actually believing in salvation received by faith plus some action.

But the Bible states that to receive God free gift of Eternal Life, a person must simply trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life, believing that Jesus is who He says He is.

That is, the promised Messiah from the prophecies of The Tanakh and believing this, a person trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

As for sin, Jesus took away the sin of the world and the world consist of believers and unbelievers. Sin is not a factor in determining a persons final destiny.

So if people are elect, they can sin to their hearts’ content ?
How is that paragraph not a strong incentive to sin ? How does it not imply that God is not Righteous ?
It implies that an elect serial murderer is pleasing to God in Christ, and that a non-elect unbeliever who has spent his life doing good is hateful to God.

That is all far too full of cognitive dissonance to be credible or moral. It does not show that God is good, holy & righteous; it makes God perverse and unjust & amoral.

Faith after justification is worthless, a mere lying phantom, if not accompanied by holy living and righteous deeds.

But what is, is has a person trusted in The Messiah for Eternal Life. Mary, Paul, Peter, John, Moses, or any other person from the Bible has no bearing on a person and them receiving Eternal Life.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I'm not Calvinist, but I would say that, the elect can't or won't sin to their heart's content by virtue of being elect. Likewise, an nonelect person will not be capable of doing anything godly.

Since, don't they believe in irresistible grace and total depravity?

So if people are elect, they can sin to their hearts’ content ?
How is that paragraph not a strong incentive to sin ? How does it not imply that God is not Righteous ?
It implies that an elect serial murderer is pleasing to God in Christ, and that a non-elect unbeliever who has spent his life doing good is hateful to God.

That is all far too full of cognitive dissonance to be credible or moral. It does not show that God is good, holy & righteous; it makes God perverse and unjust & amoral.

Faith after justification is worthless, a mere lying phantom, if not accompanied by holy living and righteous deeds.

 

[d taylor]

So if people are elect, they can sin to their hearts’ content ?
How is that paragraph not a strong incentive to sin ? How does it not imply that God is not Righteous ?
It implies that an elect serial murderer is pleasing to God in Christ, and that a non-elect unbeliever who has spent his life doing good is hateful to God.

That is all far too full of cognitive dissonance to be credible or moral. It does not show that God is good, holy & righteous; it makes God perverse and unjust & amoral.

Faith after justification is worthless, a mere lying phantom, if not accompanied by holy living and righteous deeds.

If a person has believed in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life. They may sin or may not sin, the way they live their life after they have become a believer. Has no consequences toward whether they have received God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Their sinful life will have consequences toward their judgment at the Judgment Seat of The Messiah. Where believers are judged for their life lived as a believer.

If they have a sinful life as a believer then they will suffer loss at The Judgment of The Messiah, and that may be a great loss, that they will never be able to reverse. But they will still remain a believer and enter into The New Heaven and Earth as a believer who has received God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Even unbelievers before they are sent to the lake of fire are not judged for their sins but for their works.

Can Believers Get Away with Murder? – Grace Evangelical Society​

No Murderer Has Eternal Life Abiding in Him (1 John 3:15) – Grace Evangelical Society



​

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm not Calvinist, but I would say that, the elect can't or won't sin to their heart's content by virtue of being elect. Likewise, an nonelect person will not be capable of doing anything godly.

Since, don't they believe in irresistible grace and total depravity?

That raises a curious dilemma. The vast majority of mankind living today are non-elect. Only a few are on the straight and narrow path that leads to eternal life. Many of that vast majority of non-elect actually do what most Christians define as "godly" things. Some even are willing to give their lives for the sake of others. Some give away their possessions and wealth. Some are genuinely compassionate. However, none of them could be elect because they will never believe in the name of Jesus Christ, having never once heard about Him or Christianity in their brief time on earth.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

That raises a curious dilemma. The vast majority of mankind living today are non-elect. Only a few are on the straight and narrow path that leads to eternal life. Many of that vast majority of non-elect actually do what most Christians define as "godly" things. Some even are willing to give their lives for the sake of others. Some give away their possessions and wealth. Some are genuinely compassionate. However, none of them could be elect because they will never believe in the name of Jesus Christ, having never once heard about Him or Christianity in their brief time on earth.

Yeah...I don't know. I've wondered the same. For example, my ancestors were German pagans prior to the 4th century and then Arians after that. Did Christ make provision for them somehow?

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Yeah...I don't know. I've wondered the same. For example, my ancestors were German pagans prior to the 4th century and then Arians after that. Did Christ make provision for them somehow?

Trust in God's mercy is all that I can say.

"You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever." - St. Theophan the Recluse

 

[bbbbbbb]

Trust in God's mercy is all that I can say.

"You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever." - St. Theophan the Recluse

Wow! That's fairly stiff stuff. It is not unlike the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Wow! That's fairly stiff stuff. It is not unlike the Roman Catholic Church.

You mean Christ was serious about not judging others? Even C.S. Lewis wrote when one character asked about another, Aslan the Lion responded that they needed to pay attention to their story, not about someone else.

When a brother committed a fault and Moses was invited to a meeting to discuss an appropriate penance, Moses refused to attend. When he was again called to the meeting, Moses took a leaking jug filled with water and carried it on his shoulder. Another version of the story has him carrying a basket filled with sand. When he arrived at the meeting place, the others asked why he was carrying the jug. He replied, "My sins run out behind me and I do not see them, but today I am coming to judge the errors of another." On hearing this, the assembled brothers forgave the erring monk.

Acquire the Spirit of Peace and a thousand souls around you will be saved. St. Seraphim of Sarov

 

[bbbbbbb]

You mean Christ was serious about not judging others? Even C.S. Lewis wrote when one character asked about another, Aslan the Lion responded that they needed to pay attention to their story, not about someone else.

When a brother committed a fault and Moses was invited to a meeting to discuss an appropriate penance, Moses refused to attend. When he was again called to the meeting, Moses took a leaking jug filled with water and carried it on his shoulder. Another version of the story has him carrying a basket filled with sand. When he arrived at the meeting place, the others asked why he was carrying the jug. He replied, "My sins run out behind me and I do not see them, but today I am coming to judge the errors of another." On hearing this, the assembled brothers forgave the erring monk.

Acquire the Spirit of Peace and a thousand souls around you will be saved. St. Seraphim of Sarov

What I was addressing was, "I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever."

That is similar to Roman Catholic claims, is it not?

 

[GreekOrthodox]

What I was addressing was, "I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever."

That is similar to Roman Catholic claims, is it not?

Yes, someone can always return but we see leaving the church as a huge risk.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I don't wish to judge, I just desire their salvation.

You mean Christ was serious about not judging others? Even C.S. Lewis wrote when one character asked about another, Aslan the Lion responded that they needed to pay attention to their story, not about someone else.

When a brother committed a fault and Moses was invited to a meeting to discuss an appropriate penance, Moses refused to attend. When he was again called to the meeting, Moses took a leaking jug filled with water and carried it on his shoulder. Another version of the story has him carrying a basket filled with sand. When he arrived at the meeting place, the others asked why he was carrying the jug. He replied, "My sins run out behind me and I do not see them, but today I am coming to judge the errors of another." On hearing this, the assembled brothers forgave the erring monk.

Acquire the Spirit of Peace and a thousand souls around you will be saved. St. Seraphim of Sarov

 

[Albion]

So if people are elect, they can sin to their hearts’ content ?

I'm not Calvinist, but I would say that, the elect can't or won't sin to their heart's content by virtue of being elect.

Of course they will not. To be among the Elect is to have received saving Faith, but no one who has received it and is a sincere disciple of the Lord would adopt the attitude that's referred to here.

There is no sure test of anyone's status, either chosen or not, but if someone does what's described, you as an onlooker can be reasonably confident that they are not among the Elect.

 

[Tigger45]

I see people on this thread conflating judging others verses intervening with believers and witnessing the Love of Christ to unbelievers.

James 5:19-20 19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I see people on this thread conflating judging others verses intervening with believers and witnessing the Love of Christ to unbelievers.

James 5:19-20 19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Yes. I understand not judging others but salvation includes the whole human race, it's not just about me.

 

[Tigger45]

Yes. I understand not judging others but salvation includes the whole human race, it's not just about me.

Sure but ultimately we're only in control of ourselves and we're shaky at that at best. Of course if we see someone whos bullied or ostracized by other's being judgmental then we intervein as we can.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Sure but ultimately we're only in control of ourselves and we're shaky at that at best. Of course if we see someone whos bullied or ostracized by other's being judgmental then we intervein as we can.

What if our intervention makes others misunderstand and mistrust us? I intervened over a yr to get someone off of someone else's back. Both the person I intervened for and the person I was pushing away from damaging, were friends but now they have both pushed me away. Did I do wrong? I worry now about intervening again.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Delete. Posted twice.

 

[bbbbbbb]

What if our intervention makes others misunderstand and mistrust us? I intervened over a yr to get someone off of someone else's back. Both the person I intervened for and the person I was pushing away from damaging, were friends but now they have both pushed me away. Did I do wrong? I worry now about intervening again.

Having been there myself, I understand your dilemma. You can only do so much and pray for wisdom. Sometimes it is best to simply leave them alone to work it out.

 

[Tigger45]

Matthew 10:16 comes to mind.
“I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

What if our intervention makes others misunderstand and mistrust us? I intervened over a yr to get someone off of someone else's back. Both the person I intervened for and the person I was pushing away from damaging, were friends but now they have both pushed me away. Did I do wrong? I worry now about intervening again.