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A Challenge for Anti-evolutionists

Zeena

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So the things God has designed, He may have designed to be built using proximate tools, i.e. scientifically-understandable physical or biological processes.
Not to imply that we aught not strive for knowlege of what is, but;

Ecc 3:11
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

Rather, that we aught to take a seasoned look at what we do know, in Light of the Knowledge of God, Who created all things.

1 Cor 8:1
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

For really, what does it 'mean' to 'know' a thing? :confused:

1 Cor 8:3
But if any man love God, the same is known of him. :hug:
 
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Astridhere

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Spiritual warrior, what a top response. I can see I am going to learn heaps on this forum.

The request for a definition of kinds and a theory of everything appears to be outside the initial challenge requests and you have done admirably.

My take is for
1.) Provide a testable hypothesis that calls into question descent with
modification from common ancestors. (The theory of evolution)

I see no true need to as TOE has falsified itself many times eg knucklewalking ancestry, LUCA with research into HGT, bipedalism tied to brain size, gradual modification with the theory of punctuated equilibrium and many more examples.

My little favourite is an abiogenic one. Now with the advent of HGT it is theorised that many primitive cells arose and genetically transfered genetic material amongst the individuals such that they all became much the same. This refuted the initial claim of a single cell arising to lead to all life.

The thing is all these primitive cells must have been so genetically similar that genetic material was able to cross genetic boundaries. Hence by evolutionsists own assertions all life that arose was similar. Genetic similarity had nothing to do with common descent at the inception of life. Rather it is a demonstration that a designer or creater created a plan for life that is reflected in all life and creations, just like any other artists work reflects same.


2.) Provide a replacement hypothesis for the theory of evolution that explains current observations and makes predictions or even a single prediction for future discoveries or tests with positive results.(or even some part of current bservations, especially the observed age of the earth. Note the age of the earth is not itself a part of the theory of evolution, but an old earth is predicted by the theory of evolution.)

A single prediction would be that God has no reason to create junk DNA.Therefore all of the mechanisms in the creation must be usefull and allow for adaptation that is limited. This has been vindicated. Not only have researchers found that junk DNA is not junk. More recently even the assertion re ERV's being remnants of ancestral virus is now being called into question by demonstrating many ERVs provide function. There is also research that suggests a halt to adaptation while continuing to acquire mutations. The creationist stance is well backed even when relying on data that was based on the presumption of common descent. Even vestigal organs are being found to have function. If I could I would provide links.

Another single prediction may be if God made life out of non living matter it is unlikely that mankind can do the same. Such is the case. Abiogenesis has been shifted out of evolutionary science and I think for good reason.


However the best point is your point that there is no need for a complete theory of everything to see that TOE has been falsified many times. This may not prove beyond doubt that some form of evolution did not occur, but it opens the door to other theories being as equally valid, even though perhaps not quite as loud. The theory of evolution is a theory in evolution itself and has little, if any, predictive power. Yet evolutionists, for some reason, seem to think creationists need a more consistent model than they themselves can supply at present.


3.) Do #2, while providing a hypothesis that honors the Christian God as well as or better than the theory of evolution or alternatively satisfies todays religious anti-evolutionists.

Again this appears to be a request for a theory of everything. Just because creationists do not have a stack of theories that have been proven false over the years such as is the case for TOE, doesn't mean they have no basis for their claims. I see this as an irrelevant challenge as it is not ones belief on how the creation occured that provides honour. "Better" is also an illusive, non scientific term.

I side with biblical creationism because I think the world has been mislead by the reasonings of mankind. I wonder how Christian evolutionists explain how 'human is human enough' for salvation. Just how much of the bible can one discredit before one may as well throw the whole thing away? It is either the inspired word of God or it is not. That is how I see it. However if one is convinced that TOE is true then they simply are and really there is nothing wrong in a spiritual sense anyway.

It is an issue that TOE gives atheists a base to not even try to look for the truth as they feel they have found it or if it causes hatred and division amongst Gods people.

The only thing that urks me is the assertion that biblical creationists are ignorant, which is what I find offensive about the thread. I have respect for my evolutionist friends, they have a right to their theories, as I do.

So basically I just wanted to say I thought your reply, Spiritual warrior, was very wise.
 
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Greg1234

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My little favourite is an abiogenic one. Now with the advent of HGT it is theorised that many primitive cells arose and genetically transfered genetic material amongst the individuals such that they all became much the same. This refuted the initial claim of a single cell arising to lead to all life.

Its interesting that you would bring that up. HGT is stealthily emerging as the omnipotent source of Darwinian change and while Creationists are highlighting the destruction of Darwin's tree of life, Darwinists might deceptively play the role of the sad and distraught adherent. However, when the curtain falls everything is A-ok in the Darwinian camp because the tree of life is making way for something much more powerful- the fortuitous transfer and integration of genetic sequences.

If I remember correctly, there are a number of unrelated organisms which share homologous genes, breaking the hierarchy, and cannot be explained by universal common descent. Another point is ERV insertions which are said to have built the genome (namely placental evolution if memory serves me right) through the fortuitous integration of viral DNA. But it's still a random integration facilitating a random variation hence the random assembly (random variation) of all life forms (UCD) remains intact.

ERV insertions for one might be based on an incorrect viral model. Though it's still controversial, some are pointing that viruses are not "big bad invaders" but are actually the remains of cellular debris being eaten by cell and used as a resource in replication.

See here for example. I'm not endorsing it atm but it's interesting stuff.
 
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tyronem

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What on earth does the net exchange of heat and energy in the universe have anything to do with the theory of evolution? Explain how those are incompatible and I will attempt to harmonize them. Also, this is a discussion about evolution, not the big bang, two entirely separate things.

The First Law states energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred. Thus for energy to be created it must have been done by an infinite source outside of time space and matter.

The Second Law states that all things head towards entropy. This is why variations and mutations we see today only reduce genetics - a tendency towards destruction not creation.

All of nature obeys the first and second laws of thermodynamics.

The Big Bang is a required feature of evolution, as much as many try to dismiss it as not part of evolution, in actual fact, if there was no big bang, there is no evolution.
 
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Astridhere

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Hi Greg1234

Yes ERV's are interesting and their study is in a fledgling state. I looked at the link and am still not quite sure what to make of it.

ERV's are now being found to have function, as a creationist would predict, and have always predicted of the genome and body organs. Up untill now ERV's, or rather the remnants found, were seen as useless relics and remnants. Lets not forget that what is found is described as having 'huge deletions and nonsense mutations'. It really bamboozles me as to how a researcher can provide this description and then in the same breath say they are the same or similar.

In actual fact I would go so far as to say these ERV's look nothing like the ERVs seen in species today. Virus mutate, change, do the HGT thing on top of being described as having undergone huge deletions and having nonsense mutations. If they are identifiable after 20 million years, they have not evolved. I would say it would be actually impossible to identify a true connection between species today and how they are connected by ERVs today.

So of the two sides, creation vs evolution it appears to me that creationists have got it right all along while evolutionists have had to adjust their initial idea. If a theory or prediction is meant to be upheld by more data and observation, then I would say this is one example of creationists having a theory that meets the challenge of predictability better than common descent. This is just one example of a creationist prediction that continues to be validated with new data and continually confirmed. That is science.

ERV's can be explained under a theoretical creationist paradigm that also concurs with an ongoing continually confirmed prediction.

However making a statement of evolutionary prediction ie ERVs are nothing more than remnants of bygone viral infections and this proves common descent; Then, needing to adjust it to suit possible functionality, appears to be less convincing and requires much more faith than believing the creationist model, that is consistently validated.

This then, appears to be a prediction that satisfies the initial request in question 1.

What do you think?
 
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Greg1234

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Hi Greg1234

Yes ERV's are interesting and their study is in a fledgling state. I looked at the link and am still not quite sure what to make of it.
Theyre saying that viruses themselves are actually the remains of dead cells. They're eaten and recycled.

ERV's are now being found to have function, as a creationist would predict, and have always predicted of the genome and body organs. Up untill now ERV's, or rather the remnants found, were seen as useless relics and remnants. Lets not forget that what is found is described as having 'huge deletions and nonsense mutations'. It really bamboozles me as to how a researcher can provide this description and then in the same breath say they are the same or similar.

In actual fact I would go so far as to say these ERV's look nothing like the ERVs seen in species today. Virus mutate, change, do the HGT thing on top of being described as having undergone huge deletions and having nonsense mutations. If they are identifiable after 20 million years, they have not evolved. I would say it would be actually impossible to identify a true connection between species today and how they are connected by ERVs today.

So of the two sides, creation vs evolution it appears to me that creationists have got it right all along while evolutionists have had to adjust their initial idea. If a theory or prediction is meant to be upheld by more data and observation, then I would say this is one example of creationists having a theory that meets the challenge of predictability better than common descent. This is just one example of a creationist prediction that continues to be validated with new data and continually confirmed. That is science.

ERV's can be explained under a theoretical creationist paradigm that also concurs with an ongoing continually confirmed prediction.

However making a statement of evolutionary prediction ie ERVs are nothing more than remnants of bygone viral infections and this proves common descent; Then, needing to adjust it to suit possible functionality, appears to be less convincing and requires much more faith than believing the creationist model, that is consistently validated.

This then, appears to be a prediction that satisfies the initial request in question 1.

What do you think?

I agree. And someone else has written extensively on it too.
 
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CryptoLutheran

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The First Law states energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred. Thus for energy to be created it must have been done by an infinite source outside of time space and matter.

The Second Law states that all things head towards entropy. This is why variations and mutations we see today only reduce genetics - a tendency towards destruction not creation.

Really? Because from what I can tell certain variations and mutations we observe at times benefit organisms. A moth with a genetic mutation which better helps it camouflage is more likely to have a better chance of surviving, mating, and therefore passing on its genetic information to the next generation.

Evolution is neither the addition or subtraction of genetic information, but rather the change of genetic mutation over the course of many generations; the mechanism of natural selection exists to facilitate those changes. That is, beneficial variations will lead to a more sustainable population whereas non-beneficial variations will likely be culled by environment and predators.

If I have a population of widgets, six red and one purple, and generation after generation the red widgets are taken out of the gene pool through either environmental factors or predatory organisms, the survival of purple widgets will very likely lead to a population of primarily purple widgets.

Evolution does not, by any stretch of the imagination, violate the second law of thermodynamics.

All of nature obeys the first and second laws of thermodynamics.

The Big Bang is a required feature of evolution, as much as many try to dismiss it as not part of evolution, in actual fact, if there was no big bang, there is no evolution.

Other than your assertion, how, by chance, does that work? For the record I accept both, because both work scientifically (in the same way that I accept both Germ Theory and General Relativity); but how do you make this conclusion?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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CryptoLutheran

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I consider evolution, or devolution, as the case may be (mock on) as the addition to, or subtraction of substantive quantities of DNA, respectively. :wave:

Not that neither exist, but if they did.. :blush:

Except that's not what evolution is.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Papias

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Both Zeena and Cryptolutheran are correct.

Cryptolutheran is correct that evolution can occur without the addition of information to the gene pool, by a change in allele frequency over time (a narrow, though correct, definition of evolution).

Zeena is using "evolution" in a more layperson way - I think she's mainly referring to Universal Common Descent (UCD), a use of the term "evolution" that I think is fine in conversation. For UCD, yes, information has to be added. There is no question that a penguin, person or poodle has more information in their genome than a prokaryote.

This is easy. As I've posted earlier (here), Information is easily added by mutations.

Here are some basic types of mutations and how they work:


  • Duplication of a stretch of DNA. This is like accidentally copying part of a book twice. Example – when making a copy of a book that has chapters 1, 2, 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11, 12, you end up with a book that has chapters 1, 2, 3,4,5,6,7,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11, 12
  • Deletion of a base pair. AATCTGTC becomes ATCTGTC
  • Addition of base pair AATCTGTC becomes ACATCTGTC
  • Transposition (like a mirror) AATCTGTC becomes CTGTCTAA
All of these can have no effect, an effect which is selected for, or an affect which is selected against.

To add information, first, take a functional gene, and make an extra copy using the duplication mutation. That won’t hurt the organism, since the second copy is simply redundant. Then use any of the other mutation methods so as to make the second copy do something new. The organism still has the original copy doing whatever it is supposed to do, but now has the added ability of whatever the new gene does (such as digesting nylon, as in a species of bacteria). This has been observed by scientists numerous times, and denying that it happens is simply denying the real world.

So adding information - new information - is easy, expected, observed, and non-controversial.

Papias
 
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CryptoLutheran

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I realized, on reading internet posts, that some arguments made are possibly useful indicators of a person's length of length of involvement/history with the topic.

Papias

I'm pretty sure mine are. I'm an absolute layman when it comes to biology. Most anything I know has come from conversations with people who know more than me, gleaning information from reading, high school biology and watching educational shows on Discovery and similar networks.

I'd like to think I have a basic grasp of certain concepts, but I'm well aware of my own limitations--as is evident from your more recent post. I hadn't considered addition/subtraction of information in that fashion, but generally considered mutation/variation as mostly just a modification of genetic information--in my mind I usually compared it to being analogous to a sequence of binary code where certain "switches" were turned on or off.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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shernren

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Lets not forget that what is found is described as having 'huge deletions and nonsense mutations'. It really bamboozles me as to how a researcher can provide this description and then in the same breath say they are the same or similar.

I have a very simple question to ask:

Have you actually looked at any ERV sequences?

For that matter, have you ever tried to compare genetic sequences between species for yourself?

(You speak with the confidence of a practitioner. Unfortunately, many people who speak with such confidence end up find such confidence unwarranted. Didn't Jesus say it was better to take the lowly seat first, and then hope to be invited up in prominence, rather than the other way around?)
 
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sfs

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The First Law states energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred.
Yes.
Thus for energy to be created it must have been done by an infinite source outside of time space and matter.
If energy was indeed created, then it must have done so by a violation of the First Law. That it had to be done by an infinite source outside time and space is purely speculation.

The Second Law states that all things head towards entropy.
No, it doesn't.

This is why variations and mutations we see today only reduce genetics - a tendency towards destruction not creation.
Mutation has nothing to do with the Second Law. It is also false that they only "reduce genetics".

The Big Bang is a required feature of evolution, as much as many try to dismiss it as not part of evolution, in actual fact, if there was no big bang, there is no evolution.
Completely wrong. If steady-state theories had turned to be true, it would have had no effect on evolutionary biology at all. If you could show that God created the universe miraculously in pretty much its present state five billion years ago, it would also have no effect on evolutionary biology.
 
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sfs

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ERV's are now being found to have function, as a creationist would predict, and have always predicted of the genome and body organs. Up untill now ERV's, or rather the remnants found, were seen as useless relics and remnants.
Why would creationism predict that all of the genome should have function? Does creationism predict that everything in the universe has a function? And why would evolution preclude some ERVs from being useful? ERV insertions are just a type of mutation, and the whole point of Darwinian evolution is that mutations can be functionally useful.

Lets not forget that what is found is described as having 'huge deletions and nonsense mutations'. It really bamboozles me as to how a researcher can provide this description and then in the same breath say they are the same or similar.
Which is to say, you don't know how to compare sequences. Geneticists do, however.

In actual fact I would go so far as to say these ERV's look nothing like the ERVs seen in species today.
Well, you can certainly say that. You can say you're a turnip, too. Neither is true. (Assuming you're not really a root vegetable, that is. On the internet, one can never be sure.)

Virus mutate, change, do the HGT thing on top of being described as having undergone huge deletions and having nonsense mutations. If they are identifiable after 20 million years, they have not evolved. I would say it would be actually impossible to identify a true connection between species today and how they are connected by ERVs today.
Humans mutate, too, and undergo huge deletions in their genomes (vastly bigger deletions than anything seen in ERVs) and nonsense mutations, too. Yet we have no difficulty telling that they're genetically related.

ERV's can be explained under a theoretical creationist paradigm that also concurs with an ongoing continually confirmed prediction.
I have often seen the claim that ERVs, or any other piece of genetic data, can be explained equally well under a creationist paradigm, yet for some reason the explanation is never forthcoming. Why do closely related but different species have the same ERVs (and yes, you really can tell that they're the same ERVs) in the identical places in their genomes. Why do ERVs fall into families that themselves show genetic relatedness? Why are older ERV insertions (as measured by the number of mutations in them) shared across larger numbers of species?

However making a statement of evolutionary prediction ie ERVs are nothing more than remnants of bygone viral infections and this proves common descent; Then, needing to adjust it to suit possible functionality, appears to be less convincing and requires much more faith than believing the creationist model, that is consistently validated.
No adjustment was needed, I'm afraid. There was never any reason to think that all ERV insertions would prove to be nonfunctional. Now if you could show that every ERV was functional, that would indeed be surprising. But that's not going to happen. Call that an evolutionary prediction
 
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Papias

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Cryptolutheran wrote:
I'm pretty sure mine are. I'm an absolute layman when it comes to biology.


All good. I wasn't really thinking of your posts anyway. More to the point, you may be a layman w.r.t. biology, but you have the humilty, integrity, and common sense not to knowingly disagree with the experts.

It constantly amazes me that some people in the world are so lacking in basic integrity that they act as if they know better than the consensus of the experts on a topic that they don't have a degree in themselves, and often don't even know the basics of.


Blessings-

Papias
 
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Papias

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stever the believer wrote:
....you can still trust the Word of the One who created the universe.

Of course you can. This is a Christians only forum, we all here agree that God created the Universe, and that our chosen Bibles (even though yours is likely not the same as mine) are God's trustworthy word.

We may not be able to trust every one of the various interpretations of God's word, right?

Papias
 
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Astridhere

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Why would creationism predict that all of the genome should have function? Does creationism predict that everything in the universe has a function? And why would evolution preclude some ERVs from being useful? ERV insertions are just a type of mutation, and the whole point of Darwinian evolution is that mutations can be functionally useful.

The point being that creationists never accepted there would be junk DNA in God creation. Evolutionists did call non coding DNA junk and without function, and you are now finding it is not junk at all an neither are ERV's. Hence if new data is meant to confirm and validate a theory it is the creationist predictions that are being shown to be consistent rather than having to elvolve your own theories to suit what you have found. That is the inescapable point you need to deal with.

Which is to say, you don't know how to compare sequences. Geneticists do, however.
The words 'huge deletions and nonsense mutations' in itself descibes two comparisons that are not alike. One does not need a degree in science to read what is plainly said. What you find are relics, ghosts, by the use of complicated models based on probabilities and assumptions, and still all you get are 'remnants' with huge genomic deletions and nonsense mutations. One does not need a degree to see what is going on here.

Well, you can certainly say that. You can say you're a turnip, too. Neither is true. (Assuming you're not really a root vegetable, that is. On the internet, one can never be sure.)
This is your fairytale so I suppose we should not expect consistency nor common sense. These virus should have 'evolved' differently in the various species. Hence through their own evolution differences in the virus should have occured. It seriously all appears to be straw grabbing.

Humans mutate, too, and undergo huge deletions in their genomes (vastly bigger deletions than anything seen in ERVs) and nonsense mutations, too. Yet we have no difficulty telling that they're genetically related.
Actually if you give some DNA on a swab to a lab you have to tell them what species it is or they are unable to set up the comparisons. It is not as straight forward as you are suggesting.

I have often seen the claim that ERVs, or any other piece of genetic data, can be explained equally well under a creationist paradigm, yet for some reason the explanation is never forthcoming. Why do closely related but different species have the same ERVs (and yes, you really can tell that they're the same ERVs) in the identical places in their genomes. Why do ERVs fall into families that themselves show genetic relatedness? Why are older ERV insertions (as measured by the number of mutations in them) shared across larger numbers of species?
I am saying and I will repeat, once an ERV is transfered horizontally and hits the germ line they become endogenous. Hence unrelated species may share similar ERv's that have nothing to do with ancestry.

Contrary to being “junk” DNA, HERVs are thought to play at least three major roles. One role is to control the regulation of genes (the expression of proteins from genes).1.Members of the HERV-K family are typically found in areas near genes.1 The regulatory role of HERVs has been demonstrated in the liver, placenta, colon, and other locations.1 It was recently reported that an endogenous retrovirus in sheep was necessary for maintaining pregnancy, as it was important in the formation of the placenta.3(Answersingenesis)


So one again what you thought were nothing more than ancestral remnants have been shown to have vital function. It is only a matter of time before all ERV's 'remnants' are found to have function. So again creationist predictions on this remain constant, non changing and continually validated...and by a science that is biased against creation and assumes common descent. Is it a miracle?.

No adjustment was needed, I'm afraid. There was never any reason to think that all ERV insertions would prove to be nonfunctional. Now if you could show that every ERV was functional, that would indeed be surprising. But that's not going to happen. Call that an evolutionary prediction

Oh I'd say calling ervs nothing more than a useless remnants then finding some have vital functions is a recanting woopsie that evolutionists go through so often I am sure you hardly notice it

HERV-K is found in an orthologous position in gorilla and chimp genomes but not in the human. Humans contain an intact preintegration site at this locus. All the woffley computations are done and presto..this must have been a result of HGT as no other explanation keeps the primate phylogeny in tact.

Here is a blooper that demonstrates this so called ERV connection is not as clear as what some evolutionists would like to make out it is.

Novel Endogenous Retrovirus in Rabbits Previously Reported as Human Retrovirus 5
"Human retrovirus 5 (HRV-5) represented a fragment of a novel retrovirus sequence identified in human RNA and DNA preparations. In this study, the genome of HRV-5 was cloned and sequenced and integration sites were analyzed. Using PCR and Southern hybridization, we showed that HRV-5 is not integrated into human DNA. A survey of other species revealed that HRV-5 is present in the genomic DNA of the European rabbit (Oryctolagus cuniculus) and belongs to an endogenous retrovirus family found in rabbits."


I'd say evolutionists need as much faith in researchers to accept any of this, as it does not appear to be credible at all.

I will respect you faith in the ERV connection, if you can respect my faith that is appears to have a non credible base.
 
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Astridhere

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Why would creationism predict that all of the genome should have function? Does creationism predict that everything in the universe has a function? And why would evolution preclude some ERVs from being useful? ERV insertions are just a type of mutation, and the whole point of Darwinian evolution is that mutations can be functionally useful.

Well then Your researchers should not have screamed how this evolutionary remnant is functionless and this proves evolution only to recant and say these provide function and that also proves evolution is true. This is a good example of TOE being unfalsifiable. No matter what 'it proves evolution', at least for the month.

The point being that creationists never accepted there would be junk DNA in Gods creation. They have never erred from this concept. There has been no going with the flow and knee jerk reactions to make evidence fit. Evolutionists did call non coding DNA junk and asserted until recently it had no function, and you are now finding it is not junk at all an neither are ERV's. Hence if new data is meant to confirm and validate a theory it is the creationist predictions that are being shown to be consistent rather than having to elvolve your own theories to suit what you have found. That is the inescapable point you need to deal with.

Which is to say, you don't know how to compare sequences. Geneticists do, however.
The words 'huge deletions and nonsense mutations' in itself descibes two comparisons that are not alike. One does not need a degree in science to read what is plainly said. What you find are relics, ghosts, by the use of complicated models based on probabilities and assumptions, and still all you get are 'remnants' with huge genomic deletions and nonsense mutations. One does not need a degree to see what is going on here.

Well, you can certainly say that. You can say you're a turnip, too. Neither is true. (Assuming you're not really a root vegetable, that is. On the internet, one can never be sure.)
This is your fairytale so I suppose we should not expect consistency nor common sense. These virus should have 'evolved' differently in the various species. Hence through their own evolution differences in the virus should have occured. It seriously all appears to be straw grabbing.


Humans mutate, too, and undergo huge deletions in their genomes (vastly bigger deletions than anything seen in ERVs) and nonsense mutations, too. Yet we have no difficulty telling that they're genetically related.
Actually if you give some DNA on a swab to a lab you have to tell them what species it is or they are unable to set up the comparisons. It is not as straight forward as you are suggesting.


I have often seen the claim that ERVs, or any other piece of genetic data, can be explained equally well under a creationist paradigm, yet for some reason the explanation is never forthcoming. Why do closely related but different species have the same ERVs (and yes, you really can tell that they're the same ERVs) in the identical places in their genomes. Why do ERVs fall into families that themselves show genetic relatedness? Why are older ERV insertions (as measured by the number of mutations in them) shared across larger numbers of species?
I am saying and I will repeat, once an ERV is transfered horizontally and hits the germ line they become endogenous. Hence unrelated species may share similar ERv's that have nothing to do with ancestry.


"Contrary to being “junk” DNA, HERVs are thought to play at least three major roles. One role is to control the regulation of genes (the expression of proteins from genes).1Members of the HERV-K family are typically found in areas near genes.1 The regulatory role of HERVs has been demonstrated in the liver, placenta, colon, and other locations.1 It was recently reported that an endogenous retrovirus in sheep was necessary for maintaining pregnancy, as it was important in the formation of the placenta." (Answersingenesis)


So you are trying to establish that the deactivated remnant of a bug that has huge genomic deletions and nonsense mutations is responsible for a sheep maintaining pregnancy are you? It appears to be a functioning and necessary part of the creation to me. Does this same ERV provide the same function in other species? No. So now evos are trying to say that bug remnants are intelligent and just know what function to perform and where they need to reside n the genome?

And I am not even going near ERV's having preferential sites as another explanation for any homology seen and I can't be bothered speaking to genetic homology in distantly related species, which you should be aware of.

So once again what you thought were nothing more than ancestral remnants have been shown to have vital function. It is only a matter of time before all ERV's 'remnants' are found to have function. So again creationist predictions on this remain constant, non changing and continually validated...and by a science that is biased against creation and assumes common descent. Is it a miracle?.


No adjustment was needed, I'm afraid. There was never any reason to think that all ERV insertions would prove to be nonfunctional. Now if you could show that every ERV was functional, that would indeed be surprising. But that's not going to happen. Call that an evolutionary prediction

Oh I'd say calling ervs nothing more than a useless remnants then finding some have vital functions is a recanting woopsie that evolutionists go through so often I am sure you hardly notice it


HERV-K is found in an orthologous position in gorilla and chimp genomes but not in the human. Humans contain an intact preintegration site at this locus. All the woffley computations are done and presto..this must have been a result of HGT as no other explanation keeps the primate phylogeny in tact.

Here is a blooper that demonstrates this so called ERV connection is not as clear as what some evolutionists would like to make out it is. Is it a rabbit or human ERV..one would think these researchers could easily tell the difference.....

Novel Endogenous Retrovirus in Rabbits Previously Reported as Human Retrovirus 5
"Human retrovirus 5 (HRV-5) represented a fragment of a novel retrovirus sequence identified in human RNA and DNA preparations. In this study, the genome of HRV-5 was cloned and sequenced and integration sites were analyzed. Using PCR and Southern hybridization, we showed that HRV-5 is not integrated into human DNA. A survey of other species revealed that HRV-5 is present in the genomic DNA of the European rabbit (Oryctolagus cuniculus) and belongs to an endogenous retrovirus family found in rabbits."


I'd say evolutionists need as much faith in researchers to accept any of this, as it does not appear to be credible at all.

If data is what validates theories...creationists win on this one, evos are still working it out.

I will respect you faith in the ERV connection, if you can respect my faith that the ERV connection appears to have a non credible base.
 
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