A Catholic thought about the doctrine of Predestination.

[Xeno.of.athens]

Excuse me, but my post was in response to the poster's false idea that the Reformed doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that the image of God is entirely lost or destroyed in men, as they are incapable of any degree of moral action as a result of the fall.

Except I did not say that nor do I believe it.

The doctrine of total depravity states that all humans are completely corrupt and sinful by nature, and are therefore incapable of choosing to do good or pleasing God without the help of divine grace. This doctrine is associated primarily with Calvinism.

From a Catholic perspective, the doctrine of total depravity is seen as overly pessimistic and not in line with the Church's understanding of human nature. Catholics believe that while all humans have a tendency towards sin, they also have the ability to choose to do good and cooperate with God's grace. The Catholic Church teaches that humans are made in God's image and have a free will which enables them to make moral choices. Additionally, the doctrine of total depravity does not take into account the role of God's prevenient grace, which is the grace that goes before, and enables a person to respond to the call of grace.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Does this agree with Scripture?

Yes.

 

[Jonaitis]

And yet doesn't it mean, in the theology you support, that in order to say yes to God man must be regenerated first, so changed in disposition that he can no longer say no to God -rather than God drawing, moving, and appealing to man who can still always refuse to open the door?

Yes, since men are "dead in sin" (Ephesians 2:1), they are unable to willingly come to God (Romans 3:10-18) unless His Spirit effectually draws and quickens them to life (John 6:65) under the faithful preaching of the gospel. They must be regenerated before they can willingly believe (John 1:12-13). Now, God's Law may appeal to a man's conscience, by moving him in conviction of his sins, without drawing them to faith, enabling them to still inevitably reject the gospel call. However, those whom God draws efficaciously by the operation of His Spirit in their hearts and minds, they will never refuse the call, being both softened and lead by God's grace to repentance.

 

[Jonaitis]

From a Catholic perspective, the doctrine of total depravity is seen as overly pessimistic and not in line with the Church's understanding of human nature. Catholics believe that while all humans have a tendency towards sin, they also have the ability to choose to do good and cooperate with God's grace. The Catholic Church teaches that humans are made in God's image and have a free will which enables them to make moral choices. Additionally, the doctrine of total depravity does not take into account the role of God's prevenient grace, which is the grace that goes before, and enables a person to respond to the call of grace.

From the Protestant perspective, much of the Catholic perspective is full of self-contradictions and unbiblically supported doctrines. However, it is also the perspective of the Protestant for an individual, regardless of what institution they belong, to question and to inquire for oneself if their institution properly teaches the Scriptures as opposed to blindly accepting them on the basis of tradition and/or its antiquity.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, since men are "dead in sin" (Ephesians 2:1), they are unable to willingly come to God (Romans 3:10-18) unless His Spirit effectually draws and quickens them to life (John 6:65) under the faithful preaching of the gospel. They must be regenerated before they can willingly believe (John 1:12-13). Now, God's Law may appeal to a man's conscience, by moving him in conviction of his sins, without drawing them to faith, enabling them to still inevitably reject the gospel call. However, those whom God draws efficaciously by the operation of His Spirit in their hearts and minds, they will never refuse the call, being both softened and lead by God's grace to repentance.

A teaching I’m familiar with maintains that a person can never know with absolute, 100 certainty that they’re numbered among the elect. Along with encouragement, hyperbole, etc, there are way too many instructions, admonishments, warnings, etc, to continue to do those things that mark us as children of God.

 

[Jonaitis]

A teaching I’m familiar with maintains that a person can never know with absolute, 100 certainty that they’re numbered among the elect. Along with encouragement, hyperbole, etc, there are way too many instructions, admonishments, warnings, etc, to continue to do those things that mark us as children of God.

2 Peter 1:10

 

[fhansen]

2 Peter 1:10

Yes, sort of puts some of the onus on us, too, just as Rom 8:12-13 does as another example

 

[Clare73]

Yes.

Then why do you not refer to it as Biblical teaching?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Then why do you not refer to it as Biblical teaching?

Because it is Catholic teaching.
It is also biblical teaching because the two are the same.

 

[Clare73]

Because it is Catholic teaching.
It is also biblical teaching because the two are the same.

Clare's teaching is also the same, but it is not referred to as Clare's teaching.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God's prevenient grace, which is the grace that goes before, and enables a person to respond to the call of grace.

I.e. regeneration.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I.e. regeneration.

Regeneration refers to the spiritual rebirth or renewal of a person, typically in Christian theology. It is the belief that God brings a person who was previously dead in their sins to new life through the Holy Spirit. This new life is often referred to as being "born again."

Prevenient grace, on the other hand, refers to the grace of God that precedes or comes before a person's decision to believe in Jesus. It is the belief that God's grace is extended to all people, even before they have faith, and that it enables them to respond to the call of the gospel and be saved. This grace is seen as a necessary precursor to regeneration.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Regeneration refers to the spiritual rebirth or renewal of a person, typically in Christian theology. It is the belief that God brings a person who was previously dead in their sins to new life through the Holy Spirit. This new life is often referred to as being "born again."

Prevenient grace, on the other hand, refers to the grace of God that precedes or comes before a person's decision to believe in Jesus. It is the belief that God's grace is extended to all people, even before they have faith, and that it enables them to respond to the call of the gospel and be saved. This grace is seen as a necessary precursor to regeneration.

Nevertheless, your description in your previous post, of prevenient grace, was a sufficient description of regeneration, in its production of saving faith. I'm not saying that I believe prevenient grace in all its philosophical uses and effects is the same as regeneration. I'm saying some people don't realize that what they believe is prevenient grace, in its ability to change the heart, is the same thing as regeneration.

 

[Clare73]

Regeneration refers to the spiritual rebirth or renewal of a person, typically in Christian theology.

That would be in Scripture, Jn 3:4-5.

It is the belief that God brings a person who was previously dead in their sins to new life through the Holy Spirit. This new life is often referred to as being "born again."

That would be from Scripture, Jn 3:3-3.

Prevenient grace, on the other hand, refers to the grace of God that precedes or comes before a person's decision to believe in Jesus. It is the belief that God's grace is extended to all people, even before they have faith, and that it enables them to respond to the call of the gospel and be saved. This grace is seen as a necessary precursor to regeneration.

Where is that in Scripture?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Where is that in Scripture?

Catholic theology teaches that prevenient grace is the grace that God extends to all humanity to enable them to respond to his call to faith and salvation. This grace is seen as a necessary precondition for human beings to be able to freely choose to accept or reject God's offer of salvation. This grace is said to be given to all people without distinction, and is seen as a manifestation of God's love and mercy.

Scripture references that are often used to support the Catholic teaching on prevenient grace include:

• John 1:9, which states that "The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world."
• Romans 2:4, which states that "God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance."
• Titus 2:11, which states that "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all."
• John 1:29 which states of Jesus Christ "Behold, the Lamb of God. Behold, he who takes away the sin of the world."
• Ephesians 2:8-9, which states that "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—not the result of works, so that no one may boast."

It is important to note that the concept of prevenient grace is not unique to catholic theology but is also found in many protestant denominations, although some protestant denominations may have a different understanding of the nature, scope and effects of prevenient grace.

 

[Clare73]

Catholic theology teaches that prevenient grace is the grace that God extends to all humanity to enable them to respond to his call to faith and salvation. This grace is seen as a necessary precondition for human beings to be able to freely choose to accept or reject God's offer of salvation. This grace is said to be given to all people without distinction, and is seen as a manifestation of God's love and mercy.

Scripture references that are often used to support the Catholic teaching on prevenient grace include:

• John 1:9, which states that "The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world."
• Romans 2:4, which states that "God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance."
• Titus 2:11, which states that "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all."
• John 1:29 which states of Jesus Christ "Behold, the Lamb of God. Behold, he who takes away the sin of the world."
• Ephesians 2:8-9, which states that "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—not the result of works, so that no one may boast."

It is important to note that the concept of prevenient grace is not unique to catholic theology but is also found in many protestant denominations, although some protestant denominations may have a different understanding of the nature, scope and effects of prevenient grace.

I find Scripture to present a native inability to see, prefer and believe the things of God (1 Co 2:14).
I understand Scripture to present an enabling to faith by God through his sovereign rebirth of them (Jn 3:3-8), but I don't find Scripture presenting that sovereign enabling rebirth to all.
Therefore, I don't see that necessary spiritual enabling for faith given to all.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I find Scripture to present a native inability to see, prefer and believe the things of God (1 Co 2:14).

Are the passages from scripture that are in my post not "the things of God"?

I understand Scripture to present an enabling to faith by God through his sovereign rebirth of them (Jn 3:3-8), but I don't find Scripture presenting that sovereign enabling rebirth to all.

You are entitled to adhere to whichever interpretation you are most convinced to be true.

Therefore, I don't see that necessary spiritual enabling for faith given to all.

I do not think that I wrote that faith or an enabling towards faith is given to all. Nevertheless scripture does state that Jesus is "the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" and scripture does state "the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all."

 

[bbbbbbb]

Are the passages from scripture that are in my post not "the things of God"?

You are entitled to adhere to whichever interpretation you are most convinced to be true.

I do not think that I wrote that faith or an enabling towards faith is given to all. Nevertheless scripture does state that Jesus is "the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" and scripture does state "the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all."

Now we encounter the Universalist conundrum. If, indeed, "the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all." is every individual who has ever lived and will ever live on planet Earth saved? If not, why not?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Now we encounter the Universalist conundrum. If, indeed, "the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all." is every individual who has ever lived and will ever live on planet Earth saved? If not, why not?

That is a misreading of the passage.

In all things, present yourself as an example of good works: in doctrine, with integrity, with seriousness, with sound words, irreproachably, so that he who is an opponent may dread that he has nothing evil to say about us. Exhort servants to be submissive to their masters, in all things pleasing, not contradicting, not cheating, but in all things showing good fidelity, so that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. For the grace of God our Saviour has appeared to all men, instructing us to reject impiety and worldly desires, so that we may live soberly and justly and piously in this age, looking forward to the blessed hope and the advent of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ. He gave himself for our sake, so that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and might cleanse for himself an acceptable people, pursuers of good works. Speak and exhort and argue these things with all authority. Let no one despise you. ​

Titus 2:7-15
to bring salvation to all is not the same thing as to save all. One can have salvation brought before you and yet not accept it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Now we encounter the Universalist conundrum. If, indeed, "the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all." is every individual who has ever lived and will ever live on planet Earth saved? If not, why not?

God's choice of and purpose for his Elect is anything but random.