A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

sovereigngrace · Mar 13, 2020

claninja said:
From the OP:

Aren't we talking about using scripture to interpret scripture?

Additionally, post #5, I used OT to scripture to show how we should interpret NT scripture in point 4 and 5 as related to the olivet discourse.

But detail and context show who, what, why, where and when?

sovereigngrace · Mar 13, 2020

In regard to the Op: William Everett Bell puts it well: “Not only are the principal features of Paul’s account found also in Christ’s Olivet discourse, but even the order is substantially the same … It is difficult to see how any candid exegete can fail to see the obvious correspondence of the two accounts and thus conclude that Christ and Paul were speaking of the same event … When one comes to the classic passage [1 Thessalonians 4-5], the identity of the event there described with that pictured by Jesus in the Olivet discourse is apparent to every candid expositor, as already demonstrated [see above comparison]. Indeed, the passage provides very little new information concerning the second advent, and that, of course, was not the purpose of the passage. It is universally acknowledged by expositors that the occasion for Paul’s remarks was the inquiry of the Thessalonians concerning the future status of believers who had died. Would these recently-departed brethren share fully in the blessings of Christ’s second coming? Paul assured them that death would be no hindrance to their participation in that event. Not only would they be raised from the dead (a fact already known), but they would be caught up (‘raptured’) simultaneously with those who remained alive. Therefore the only additional information afforded by the passage is some detail concerning the precise relationship of the dead to the living saints at Christ’s coming.”

claninja · Mar 13, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
But detail and context show who, what, why, where and when?

I agree, so what details of "who", "what", "why", "where" and "when" shows the olivet discourse is about an audience 2,000 years later?

"who" = Jesus' audience

Matthew 24:15 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,

Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath.

Matthew 24:26 So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out;

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near

"what" = Destruction of temple and Jerusalem

Matthew 24:1-2 As Jesus left the temple and was walking away, His disciples came up to Him to point out its buildings.“Do you see all these things?” He replied. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Matthew 24:15 so when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,

Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near

"why" = for all the righteous bloodshed and not recognizing the time of God's visitation and to fulfill "all that is written" in regards to the days of vengeance.

Luke 19:43-44 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.

Matthew 23:34-46 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Matthew 22:25-27 But they paid no attention and went away, one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city

Luke 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

"Where" = Jerusalem and Judea

Matthew 24:15-16 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:20-21 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city

"when" = 66-70ad

Luke 21:32 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

Matthew 24:33-35 So also, when YOU see all these things, you will know that He is near,f right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

claninja · Mar 13, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
I think Jesus used the Hosea language as a harbinger of both AD 70 and the final global destruction. Like you say, AD70 is itself a ‘type.’ They are examples of near / far fulfilments that I was trying to explain on another thread.

So Jesus' explanation in Luke 23-28-20 is only a "shadow" but your explanation of the it being far and future to us is the "fulfillment"?

sovereigngrace · Mar 13, 2020

claninja said:
I agree, so what details of "who", "what", "why", "where" and "when" shows the olivet discourse is about an audience 2,000 years later?

"who" = Jesus' audience

Matthew 24:15 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,

Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath.

Matthew 24:26 So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out;

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near

"what" = Destruction of temple and Jerusalem

Matthew 24:1-2 As Jesus left the temple and was walking away, His disciples came up to Him to point out its buildings.“Do you see all these things?” He replied. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Matthew 24:15 so when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,

Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near

"why" = for all the righteous bloodshed and not recognizing the time of God's visitation and to fulfill "all that is written" in regards to the days of vengeance.

Luke 19:43-44 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.

Matthew 23:34-46 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Matthew 22:25-27 But they paid no attention and went away, one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city

Luke 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

"Where" = Jerusalem and Judea

Matthew 24:15-16 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:20-21 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city

"when" = 66-70ad

Luke 21:32 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

Matthew 24:33-35 So also, when YOU see all these things, you will know that He is near,f right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

I agree with everything you wrote apart from your location of Matthew 24:33-35, which relates to the period preceding the second coming.

To ignore one of the two questions asked by the disciples is clumsy hermeneutics. Preterists and Futurists both do that.

Christian Gedge · Mar 13, 2020

claninja said:
So Jesus' explanation in Luke 23-28-20 is only a "shadow" but your explanation of the it being far and future to us is the "fulfillment"?

Yes, in the same sense that you have used Hoseas prophecy and the siege of Samaria (720 BC) as a “shadow” of the siege of Jerusalem, I have used the siege of Jerusalem as a shadow of the final destruction of the world.

sovereigngrace · Mar 13, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
Yes, in the same sense that you have used Hoseas prophecy and the siege of Samaria (720 BC) as a “shadow” of the siege of Jerusalem, I have used the siege of Jerusalem as a shadow of the final destruction of the world.

Exactly. I agree!

claninja · Mar 14, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I agree with everything you wrote apart from your location of Matthew 24:33-35, which relates to the period preceding the second coming.

That would again break your own rules based on eschatological bias. You agree with the use of all the other "you" in the chapter as a 1st century audience but then as soon come to the end, you don't believe the "you" is any more about the 1st century audience. This conclusion can be nothing else but based on eschatological bias.

Jesus literally tells his disciples when "YOU" see "ALL" these things, "YOU" will know He/it is near. The "you" is clearly his audience see "all these things" he just spoken about.

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.

Jesus even emphasized the "you" with saying "this generation" will not pass away until all these things have happened.

Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

sovereigngrace said:
To ignore one of the two questions asked by the disciples is clumsy hermeneutics. Preterists and Futurists both do that.

I don't know anyone, preterists or futurists, who ignore these 2 questions for you to make this statment.

Based on looking at the synoptic gospels, it should be clear that the destruction of the temple is associated with the coming of the Christ in judgment.

Matthew 24:3 Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

Mark 13:4 Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to be fulfilled?”

Luke 21:7 Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”

Based on the 2 questions, and using the synoptic parallels its pretty clear that the "sign of your coming and of the end of the age = sign that they are about to take place/be fulfillled".

Jesus coming in judgment upon Israel at the end of the age was to occur when the destruction of the temple occurred.

We can confirm that the apostles believed the coming of Christ in judgment up on Israel was near as:

1.) Paul confirms the fulfillment of the ages "has come".
1 corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

2. Peter confirms the end of all things is near
1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray.

3.) John confirms is is the last hour
1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

4.) James confirms the coming of Christ is near and even states the judge "is standing" (present tense verb) at the door. The only way James could confirm this if he was experiencing the events of the olivet discourse

James 5:8-9 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.

claninja · Mar 14, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
Yes, in the same sense that you have used Hoseas prophecy and the siege of Samaria (720 BC) as a “shadow” of the siege of Jerusalem, I have used the siege of Jerusalem as a shadow of the final destruction of the world.

We are actually not doing the same thing. I view Jesus' words as in Luke 23:28-30 as the fulfillment. When Jesus claims something is to come to pass or fulfilled, I view that as the completion, the antitype. It appears you view Jesus' words, specifically the ones that go against your eschatological view, as only shadows though.

I view the law, prophets, and psalms as shadows pointing to Christ. I view Christ and his words as the reality. It appears you believe Christ words to be more shadows though, thus I would have to disagree.

When Christ's words merely become more shadows, we can then make future events mean what ever we want based on how we believe the end is to occur, thus the hundreds of different futurist interpretations. This is clear throughout most church history. The early church fathers believed the end would come when rome ended. Rome ended, Jesus' 2nd coming didn't come the way they thought it would, and thus new interpretations had to be formed. It's the same today.

sovereigngrace · Mar 14, 2020

claninja said:
That would again break your own rules based on eschatological bias. You agree with the use of all the other "you" in the chapter as a 1st century audience but then as soon come to the end, you don't believe the "you" is any more about the 1st century audience. This conclusion can be nothing else but based on eschatological bias.

Jesus literally tells his disciples when "YOU" see "ALL" these things, "YOU" will know He/it is near. The "you" is clearly his audience see "all these things" he just spoken about.

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.

Jesus even emphasized the "you" with saying "this generation" will not pass away until all these things have happened.

Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

I don't know anyone, preterists or futurists, who ignore these 2 questions for you to make this statment.

Based on looking at the synoptic gospels, it should be clear that the destruction of the temple is associated with the coming of the Christ in judgment.

Matthew 24:3 Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

Mark 13:4 Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to be fulfilled?”

Luke 21:7 Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”

Based on the 2 questions, and using the synoptic parallels its pretty clear that the "sign of your coming and of the end of the age = sign that they are about to take place/be fulfillled".

Jesus coming in judgment upon Israel at the end of the age was to occur when the destruction of the temple occurred.

We can confirm that the apostles believed the coming of Christ in judgment up on Israel was near as:

1.) Paul confirms the fulfillment of the ages "has come".
1 corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

2. Peter confirms the end of all things is near
1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray.

3.) John confirms is is the last hour
1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

4.) James confirms the coming of Christ is near and even states the judge "is standing" (present tense verb) at the door. The only way James could confirm this if he was experiencing the events of the olivet discourse

James 5:8-9 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.

Christ's shift to answering the second question (re the future second coming) comes in Matthew 24:23, Mark 13:21 and Luke 21:25. These are all parallel accounts. Our Lord describes events that will precede His return, and then speaks about that climactic event also. The detail re generation speaks that genea alive when He returns in power and glory. The subject in view continues until the end of each respective chapter.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:23-51: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. gē] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

The second coming has not occurred.
The glorification of the elect has not occurred.
The end of the age has not occurred.
The last day has not occurred.
The old corrupt earth is still here.
Creation has not been delivered from the bondage of corruption.
The age to come has not arrived in all its perfect glory.
The new heavens and new earth have not arrived.

Jesus taught in the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13:24-30, “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Verses 37-43 continues, “He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (or aion or age); and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (or aion or age). The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

John 11:21-27 records: “Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Christ had previously taught in John 6:39-44, 54, where He said, “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day …No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day ... Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Christ tells us in John 12:48, “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Romans 8:19-23: “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (phthora or decay) inherit incorruption (aphthrsia or unending existence). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

2 Peter 3:10-13 couldn't be clearer: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 tells us: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Revelation 22:3 tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

claninja · Mar 14, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Christ's shift to answering the second question (re the future second coming) comes in Matthew 24:23, Mark 13:21 and Luke 21:25. These are all parallel accounts. Our Lord describes events that will precede His return, and then speaks about that climactic event also. The detail re generation speaks that genea alive when He returns in power and glory. The subject in view continues until the end of each respective chapter.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:23-51: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. gē] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

The second coming has not occurred.

The glorification of the elect has not occurred.

The end of the age has not occurred.

The last day has not occurred.

The old corrupt earth is still here.

Creation has not been delivered from the bondage of corruption.

The age to come has not arrived in all its perfect glory.

The new heavens and new earth have not arrived.

Jesus taught in the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13:24-30, “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Verses 37-43 continues, “He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (or aion or age); and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (or aion or age). The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

John 11:21-27 records: “Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Christ had previously taught in John 6:39-44, 54, where He said, “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day …No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day ... Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Christ tells us in John 12:48, “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Romans 8:19-23: “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (phthora or decay) inherit incorruption (aphthrsia or unending existence). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

2 Peter 3:10-13 couldn't be clearer: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 tells us: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Revelation 22:3 tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

All of this Proves again that you must break your own interpretive rule of "who" and "when" due to eschatological bias.

Who is the "you" of matthew 24:33?

Matthew 24:33 So also, when YOU see all these things, YOU will know that He is near, right at the door.

What Bible translation translates genea as anything other than "generation"?

Thayer's greek lexicon has the genea of matthew 24:34 to mean generation and not race.

"3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage)."

Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

keras · Mar 14, 2020

claninja said:
All of this Proves again that you must break your own interpretive rule of "who" and "when" due to eschatological bias.

Who is the "you" of matthew 24:33?

Matthew 24:33 So also, when YOU see all these things, YOU will know that He is near, right at the door.

The 'Rule' is that the Bible applies to all people for all time. Even events known to have passed, have useful lessons.

SG made a comprehensive list of events that Jesus prophesied and have not happened yet.
So the inescapable truth is that they apply to us, who as any thinking person can ascertain; are now at the cusp of massive world wide change.

Your hammering at this truth displays a violent aversion to anything that will upset your lifestyle.

sovereigngrace · Mar 14, 2020

claninja said:
All of this Proves again that you must break your own interpretive rule of "who" and "when" due to eschatological bias.

Who is the "you" of matthew 24:33?

Matthew 24:33 So also, when YOU see all these things, YOU will know that He is near, right at the door.

What Bible translation translates genea as anything other than "generation"?

Thayer's greek lexicon has the genea of matthew 24:34 to mean generation and not race.

"3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage)."

Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

You are carefully ignoring the other meanings. You have to do that for Preterism to fit. Anyway, "this generation" is in the context of the end of time. It speaks that genea alive when He returns in power and glory.

γενεά

genea

Thayer Definition:

1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time.
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years.

God's message in Scripture was not solely directed at the immediate listener it was for every generation equally. He refers to man as "you" often, when speaking to His people. We can apply it to our lives on an ongoing basis.

iamlamad · Mar 14, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You are carefully ignoring the other meanings. You have to do that for Preterism to fit. Anyway, "this generation" is in the context of the end of time. It speaks that genea alive when He returns in power and glory.

γενεά

genea

Thayer Definition:

1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time.
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years.

God's message in Scripture was not solely directed at the immediate listener it was for every generation equally. He refers to man as "you" often, when speaking to His people. We can apply it to our lives on an ongoing basis.

Good post!

iamlamad · Mar 14, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Christ's shift to answering the second question (re the future second coming) comes in Matthew 24:23, Mark 13:21 and Luke 21:25. These are all parallel accounts. Our Lord describes events that will precede His return, and then speaks about that climactic event also. The detail re generation speaks that genea alive when He returns in power and glory. The subject in view continues until the end of each respective chapter.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:23-51: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven [Gr. ouranos] and earth [Gr. gē] shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

The second coming has not occurred.

The glorification of the elect has not occurred.

The end of the age has not occurred.

The last day has not occurred.

The old corrupt earth is still here.

Creation has not been delivered from the bondage of corruption.

The age to come has not arrived in all its perfect glory.

The new heavens and new earth have not arrived.

Jesus taught in the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13:24-30, “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Verses 37-43 continues, “He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (or aion or age); and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (or aion or age). The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

John 11:21-27 records: “Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Christ had previously taught in John 6:39-44, 54, where He said, “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day …No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day ... Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Christ tells us in John 12:48, “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Romans 8:19-23: “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (phthora or decay) inherit incorruption (aphthrsia or unending existence). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

2 Peter 3:10-13 couldn't be clearer: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 tells us: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Revelation 22:3 tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

No preterist ever answers these questions, they just sidestep and go to something else. It is SO DIFFICULT to pointpoint a time in history some future event took place!

sovereigngrace · Mar 14, 2020

iamlamad said:
No preterist ever answers these questions, they just sidestep and go to something else. It is SO DIFFICULT to pointpoint a time in history some future event took place!

Amen! I agree!

They have to avoid it because everyone knows that sin, death, corruption, the wicked and Satan still exist. Jesus has not come yet. Man has not been glorified yet. This earth has not yet been delivered from the bondage of corruption. The eternal state is not yet here.

claninja · Mar 15, 2020

keras said:
The 'Rule' is that the Bible applies to all people for all time. Even events known to have passed, have useful lessons.

I agree that the lessons of events that occurred in the Bible are profitable for all people:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Does that mean I believe all events of the Bible, such as David and Goliath, the Assyrian conquest of Samaria, Jesus death on the cross, and the destruction of the Jerusalem temple by the Romans will happen in my life time? Absolutely not.

keras said:
SG made a comprehensive list of events that Jesus prophesied and have not happened yet.

His comprehensive list sidestepped and did not address anything I wrote. Such is common of the futurists. I will gladly answer His questions once He actually addresses my post. Otherwise, it will just continue to side track.

keras said:
So the inescapable truth is that they apply to us, who as any thinking person can ascertain; are now at the cusp of massive world wide change.

While I don't believe the destruction of Jerusalem is future to us, I would agree that the resurrection is. I am not living in my new resurrected body as I type this, are you?

keras said:
Your hammering at this truth displays a violent aversion to anything that will upset your lifestyle.

That is kind of a weird thing to say to someone. You don't anything about me or what I do or my lifestyle. Let's avoid bizarre, strange personal comments and try to be more objective.

claninja · Mar 15, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You are carefully ignoring the other meanings. You have to do that for Preterism to fit.

Let's test who's actually ignoring the meaning of "genea", and changing it to suit their own eschatological bias. Thayer's Greek lexicon does not list a verse for point number 2, which is where you believe Matthew 24:34 should fall. Point number 3 defines genea as a literal generation, in regards to Matthew 23:34, So it is very clear that you are ignoring the meaning of the genea as in interferes with your eschatological bias

Source: Strong's Greek: 1074. γενεά (genea) -- race, family, generation

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1074: γενεά

γενεά, γενεάς, ἡ (ΓΑΝΩ, γίνομαι (crf. Curtius, p. 610)); the Sept. often for דּור; in Greek writings from Homer down;

1. a begetting, birth, nativity: Herodotus 3, 33; Xenophon, Cyril 1, 2, 8, etc.; (others make the collective sense the primary significance, see Curtius as above).

2. passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family;

a. properly, as early as Homer; equivalent to מִשְׁפָּחַה, Genesis 31:3, etc. σῴζειν Ρ᾽αχαβην καί τήν γενεάν αὐτῆς, Josephus, Antiquities 5, 1, 5. the several ranks in a natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy: Matthew 1:17 (ἑβδόμῃ γενεά οὗτος ἐστιν ἀπό τοῦ πρώτου, Philo, vit. Moys. i. § 2).

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).

4. an age (i. e. the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation), the space of from 30 to 33 years (Herodotus 2, 142, et al.; Heraclitus in Plutarch, def. orac. c. 11), or ὁ χρόνος, ἐν ᾧ γεννωντα παρέχει τόν ἐξ αὐτοῦ γεγεννημένον ὁ γεννησας (Plutarch, the passage cited); in the N. T. common in plural: Ephesians 3:5 (Winers Grammar, § 31, 9 a.; Buttmann, 186 (161)); παρῳχημέναις γενεαῖς in ages gone by, Acts 14:16; ἀπό τῶν γενεῶν for ages, since the generations began, Colossians 1:26; ἐκ γενεῶν ἀρχαίων from the generations of old, from ancient times down, Acts 15:21; εἰς γενεάς γενεῶν unto generations of generations, through all ages, forever (a phrase which assumes that the longer ages are made up of shorter; see αἰών, 1 a.): Luke 1:50 R L (דּורִים לְדור, Isaiah 51:8); εἰς γενεάς καί γενεάς unto generations and generations, ibid. T Tr WH equivalent to וָדור לְדור, Psalm 89:2; Isaiah 34:17; very often in the Sept.; (add, εἰς πάσας τάς γενεάς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων, Ephesians 3:21, cf. Ellicott at the passage) (γενεά is used of a century in Genesis 15:16, cf. Knobel at the passage, and on the senses of the word see the full remarks of Keim, iii. 206 (v. 245 English translation)).

sovereigngrace said:
God's message in Scripture was not solely directed at the immediate listener it was for every generation equally. He refers to man as "you" often, when speaking to His people. We can apply it to our lives on an ongoing basis.

the temple destruction is included in "all these things". So you believe you will see the destruction of the literal temple in Jerusalem in your life?

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.

You don't believe the "you" in matthew 24:34 applies to the 1st century generation that experienced the destruction of the temple?

DavidPT · Mar 15, 2020

claninja said:
That would again break your own rules based on eschatological bias. You agree with the use of all the other "you" in the chapter as a 1st century audience but then as soon come to the end, you don't believe the "you" is any more about the 1st century audience. This conclusion can be nothing else but based on eschatological bias.

When Jesus used pronouns such as 'you', ye', etc, in the Discourse, He was applying it to a type of person, that being a disciple, that being the church. There are still disciples yet today. There is still the church yet today. To think Jesus was only focusing on the disciples in His day, and only on the church in His day, is interpreting these things in a vaccuum. Clearly some of the events in the Discourse did involve the disciples in His day, did involve the church in His day, yet the events in the Discourse expand beyond that period of time and eventually end with Christ's bodily return at the end of the age.

For example. How can anyone read Matthew 24:42-51 and seriously think the coming meant there, which is meaning the same coming mentioned a cpl of times earlier in the Discourse, involved events in the first century, is beyond beyond me?

Let's look at a verse or two within those verses.

Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Who do Preterists think are meant by these evil servants in verse 48? The unbelieving Jews that got slaughtered in 70 AD? Do Preterists think any of them were actually saying in their heart at the time---- My lord delayeth his coming? Obviously, 'My lord' means Jesus in this context, and that unbelieving Jews back then despised Jesus, therefore they wouldn't have seen themselves as His servants for certain. Only a professed Christian can fit here.

If this coming in verse 48 had to do with what happened in 70 AD, would not the unbelieving Jews hope that He delayed that coming? So why is Jesus punishing them when He comes because they were saying in their heart, My Lord delayth his coming? If this was about the events of 70 AD, they would be getting punished, regardless. Yet they are not being punished because this is meaning the events of 70 AD, they are being punished when He comes, because they were saying in their heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
where that led to them begining to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken. Seriously, what does any of this latter have to do with what happened to unbelieving Jews in 70 AD?

But it's not only Preterists that don't grasp who is being meant by an evil servant in verse 48, there's plenty of other folks as well, though they agree these events involve the 2nd coming, who don't grasp who is being meant by an evil servant here either.

Context determines what something means. There is zero in the context of verses 48-51 that support a first century coming here. Zero, as in no chance whatsoever.

Andrewn · Mar 15, 2020

The Following seems to give a balanced and scientific view. It is quoted from:

What is 'the sign of the Son of man in heaven' (Mt 24:30)?

Future or past?27

Matthew 24:29-31 is interpreted and translated by most commentators as if it were a description of the second coming in the future. However, a literal translation may also render, 'Then, at that time the sign of the Son of man will appear in the sky placing the event in the contemporary reader's past rather than their future.

A case can then be made that the reference to the sign is to denote an event meaningful to Jesus' listeners (or Matthew's readers), because Matthew's Jesus states explicitly in verse 34: 'this generation will not pass away until all these things take place'. That generation did not see the expected second coming; for this reason Jesus must have referred to something that was contemporary to their circumstances. Jesus tells the high priest according to Matthew 26:64 that 'from now on you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven'. The priest did not see the second coming.

A last argument is that when Jesus refers to the second coming in the second part of his discourse (24:27, 37, 39), he uses ή παρουσία, whereas in 24:30 he uses έρχόμενον. Jesus' use of another word might indicate that he is not speaking of his second coming. Then the τό σημεΐον τουυίου του άνθρώπου έν τω ούρανω might refer to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and the tribulation or affliction ( ) in verse 29 refers to the abomination of desolation depicted in verse 15-28, εσται γαρ τότεθλΐψις μεγάλη οϊα ού γέγονεν άπ' άρχης κόσμου εως του νυν ούδ' ού μή γένηται [For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be'; 24:21].

The sign of the Son of man is then interpreted as the sign of Jesus' vindication as the Messiah. The destruction of the temple implied that the Jewish system of sacrifices and ritual purity came to an end, indicating that Jesus is the true Saviour, and that Jerusalem is destroyed, implies that Jesus is crowned as King in heaven.

This argument, however, breaks down at the second part of verses 30 and 31:

the tribes of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other ...

presumably to offer them something more than this world can.28 The reference to 'coming on the clouds of heaven' indicates God's presence (Ex 16:10; 19:9; 34:5; Lv 16:2; Nm 11:25), salvation (Ps 18:9-12) and judgement (Is 19:1; Nah 1:3, 5-6).

My observations: The passage mixes 2 events, which makes it difficult to interpret. But the fact that Church Fathers who lived after 70 AD never mentioned that the Lord's coming had already taken place should settle the matter. Even in the 4th century when they wrote the Creed, they indicated that the Parousya was still expected in the future:

"He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end."

A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

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