A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

sovereigngrace said:

Ok, so in another 11 years we will be in the millennium? The reality is: as every 2000 years has arrived in history, Premils just keep adjusting their arithmetic to support their false teaching.

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You did it! Where do you get 6020 from?
AMillieniumism is a weird and so obviously wrong belief, that I have to wonder at the cognitive ability of those who tout it.

sovereigngrace said:

I find that ironic coming from someone who cannot even present one Scripture to corroborate the Premillennial opinion of Revelation 20. Let's put your doctrine to the test, if you are indeed genuinely confident Premil is a corroborative doctrine.

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Revelation 20 provides an comprehensive and easily understood overview of events after Jesus Returns. There is no need for 'corroborative evidence', at all.
However there are several prophesies that do support the 2000 year Christian age, then the 1000 year Millennium reign of King Jesus. Hosea 6:2, Luke 13:32, Psalms 48:1-3, Isaiah 33:20-22, Isaiah 60:7-22, Micah 4:1-5, Zechariah 9:10

Are you going to explain how you arrived at 6020?
Or is it just a guess and an assumption, like the amill belief?

sovereigngrace said:

Quote the actual biblical evidence of a supposed thousand years period in the future. I don't see it in any of these passages. I suspect that is the reason why you do not actually quote them. This is a typical Jack Van Impe tactic when the text doesn't support his theory. Amils are happy quoting the Scriptures and letting them speak for themselves.

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Revelation 20 says there will be a thousand years after Jesus Returns; six times.

The other scriptures I referred to, do confirm it, there is no other viable meaning to them.
Of course, you with your amill beliefs, just can't see the truth.

Please; we are all curious about where you got the 6020 from.

DavidPT said:

Assuming that's the case, you are proposing that satan is cast unto the earth at the cross, correct?

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Correct. It was at the cross that satan was cast out per Jesus' own words:

John 12:31-33 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

Thus I use John 12:31-33 to interpret revelation 12.

I would argue revelation 12:4-6 is parallel of revelation revelation 12:7-14.

Revelation 12:4-6 And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, ready to devour her child as soon as she gave birth. And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.a And her child was caught up to God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time.”

Revelation 12:13-14 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

DavidPT said:

As to these 3.5 years, you're taking those literally, correct?

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I understand it to be the 2nd half of the 70th week or 3.5 years after the cross.

DavidPT said:

Your position is difficult for me to follow, especially regarding the thousand years. Doesn't this indicate, per your position on the thousand years, satan would be in the pit while he still had access to heaven? After all, before he is cast out of heaven he still had access to heaven in the meantime. In another post I indicated I could be wrong, but I felt no one would argue that satan is in the pit while he still had access to heaven. It appears I was wrong after all since that's what you appear to be arguing if you are not placing his initial casting into the pit after he has been cast out of heaven.

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My position is not Amil in the traditional sense. My position is that the 1,000 years is symbolic for the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant at the 1st advent. My position is not that the 1,000 years symbolic for a time span between the 1st and 2nd advent.

My position is that following the cross, Satan no longer had access to heaven, lost his authority, and lost the ability to accuse the elect. By his binding, the gospel went to the nations.

Ephesians 6:13 Therefore take up the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you will be able to stand your ground, and having done everything, to stand

Romans 8:33-34 Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us.

Acts 14:15 Simona has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own.

Matthew 12:29 Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions, unless he first binds the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

My position also holds that when satan was cast out, he went off to make war against the saints.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

a.) signs and wonders by false prophets to possibly deceive the elect associated with the detruction of Jerusalem in the 1st century
Matthew 24:24-25 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. See, I have told you in advance.

b.) Satan prowling around looking to devour someone
1 peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour

c.) Apostasy due to the antichrist in the 1st century
1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

d.) Satan disguising himself as an angel of light in order to deceive.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

e.) Satan is loosed to persecute the church upon Christ's ascension
Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Acts 14:2-5 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands. But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles. When an attempt was made by both Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to mistreat them and to stone them,

Acts 8:1 And Saul was there, giving approval to Stephen’s death. On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

f.) satan had a throne on earth in the 1st century
Revelation 2:13 I know where you live, where the throne of Satan sits.

Christian Gedge said:

View attachment 274215

Diagrams have paper size constraints. But these two major views are how I understand them to be.

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Right, your diagram shows, per the amil position, that the loosing of satan occurs at the end of the church age. Not after the church age.


A MOD from another forum defines the Amil position as symbolic for starting at Christ's ascension and ending with the return of Christ:

Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

"One particular problem is the use of term amillennialism. Amillennialism means no millennial period set between two specific events in history matching 1000 years. In the amillennial view, the 1000 years is symbolic and starts at the Ascension of Christ and ends with the physical return of Christ at the Second coming. "

The Millennial Kingdom by John Walvoord in regards to Amillinnialsim:

"The present age is between the first and second comings is the fulfillment of the millennium. Its adherents are divided on whether the millennium is being fulfilled now on earth (Augustine) or whether it is being fulfilled by the saints in heaven (Kliefoth)".

From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner quoting from J.G. Vos:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

Even theopedia defines it the same way:

Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return"

sovereigngrace said:

Jude supports the view of a current binding of the whole kingdom of darkness, in v 6, when he says,“the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting desmois (Strong’s 1199) (or) chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

The demonic realm is comprehensively and wholly described in Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4 in terms that leave no room for exceptions. They are described as “the angels which kept not their first estate” (Jude 6) and "the angels that sinned" (2 Peter 2:4). Now, what devils do not come under those two broad descriptions? None, of course! If angels are not “the elect angels” (1 Timothy 5:21), then they are “the angels which kept not their first estate” (Jude 6) / "the angels that sinned" (2 Peter 2:4).

Jude like John in Revelation 20:1 uses literal terminologies to in some way impress the restricted spiritual condition of Satan and the kingdom of darkness since the cross. The literalist would do well to remember that Satan and his emissaries are spiritual-beings. Angels and demons are spiritual creations, not physical mortal creatures. It is only logical then to recognize that the binding of spiritual beings must of necessity be executed in a spiritual way not a literal physical way, as Premils argue. After all, the same God that made them spiritual must then spiritually bind them in order to curb their influence.

2 Peter 2:4 closely correlates with Jude v6, saying, “God spared not the angels that sinned, but tartaroo (or) ‘cast them down to hell’, and delivered them seiraís (or) ‘into chains’ of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

2 Peter 2:4, Jude 6 and Revelation 9:1-3 refute the idea that the abyss only becomes the domain of demons after the Coming of Christ. They show the abyss occupied now by Satan's minions, prior to the last trumpet. Revelation 9:11 also shows Satan (Abaddon/Apollyon) there as well. Of course the restrain here cannot be physical. After all, Satan is a spiritual being. He is like a dog on a chain. He cannot stop the Gospel going out to the nations since the cross. He once had that power. How can Premils recognize the restraint of the demonic host in the pit but not Satan? You cannot divorce them.

The general detail on the curtailment of the demonic realm today in 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 is enlarged upon in Revelation 9:1-3 and Revelation 20:1-3. Whilst there is differing detail, one doesn’t negate the other. After all, the release of demons prior to the end in Revelation 9:1-3 and Revelation 20:1-3 does not undo their defeated state, their guilty position, or the limitations upon which they can afflict the righteous. The only change is that God allows Satan his final throw before destruction. He is allowed to deceive and torment the wicked (Rev 9:3-6) and deceive the Gentiles again on a global scale (Rev 20:7-9). The reality is, a prisoner can have relative freedom when out of prison but can equally be tagged, kept under strict observation and be restricted as to his movement and influence. Therefore, the spiritual chains still apply albeit with wider freedom than before.

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Absolutely agree that spiritual powers and authorities were over thrown and bound by the cross.

Colossians 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Matthew 12:29 Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions, unless he first binds the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.


However, none of this addresses Satan's ability to prowl the earth and devour, satans ability to disguise as an angel of light to deceive, the elect possibly being deceived by false prophets, apostasy as noted by John, satan working in the sons of disobedience, persecution of the church by the sons of devil and gentiles.......

a.) signs and wonders by false prophets to possibly deceive the elect associated with the detruction of Jerusalem in the 1st century
Matthew 24:24-25 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. See, I have told you in advance.

b.) Satan prowling around looking to devour someone
1 peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour

c.) Apostasy due to the antichrist in the 1st century
1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

d.) Satan disguising himself as an angel of light in order to deceive.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

e.) Satan is loosed to persecute the church upon Christ's ascension
Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Acts 14:2-5 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands. But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles. When an attempt was made by both Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to mistreat them and to stone them,

Acts 8:1 And Saul was there, giving approval to Stephen’s death. On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

f.) satan had a throne on earth in the 1st century
Revelation 2:13 I know where you live, where the throne of Satan sits.

g.) The ruler of the power of the air was at work in the 1st century in the sons of disobedience.
Ephesians 2:2 In which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

h.) the sons of the slave woman, whom Jesus called the sons of the devil, were persecuting the church in the 1st century
John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires.

Galatians 4:28 Now you,d brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time, however, the son born by the flesh persecuted the son born by the Spirit. It is the same now.

sovereigngrace said:

Again, you are trying to rebut Amil with the Premil understanding of the spiritual restraint. That is neither fair, sensible or plausible. This shows the weakness and confusion of your position. This is common with your many neo-Full Preterist views. They don't simply add up.

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Where did I ever mention any other restraint besides the cross that you would come to this conclusion? Nice try with the strawman argument.

sovereigngrace said:

• Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?

• Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?

• Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?

• Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?

• Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?

• Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?

• Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?

• Does imprisonment mean immobility?

• Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?

• Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?

• Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?

• Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

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You must be confusing me with a dispy to ask such questions about brick prisons and metal chains to hold demons.

sovereigngrace said:

We all know there are many crimes committed within the confines of a prison. Murders, rapes, drug abuse are all common within the prisons of this world. That doesn’t dilute the fact that the prisoner still remains imprisoned. In the case of Satan's prison, he too commits many crimes within his prison walls, but that does not negate the fact he is under 24 hr surveillance and is under definite and continual restraint since the cross. The chains are more effective than earthly metal ones, they are spiritual chains designed to slow him down and restrict his movement. The spiritual chains of the wicked clearly don't stop them operating within their dark prison-cell.

All sane commentators would believe that the lost are bound in a prison today. However, none would view that as a physical reality; neither would any deny the fact that those imprisoned individuals enjoy the same physical movement as the saved; the reason being that we are speaking about spiritual matters.

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So from this parable you appear to believe the prison is the cross and gospel holding satan.

Do you then believe the gospel and cross will be less effective in the future, resulting in satan's release from the parabolic prison?

sovereigngrace said:

The millennium represents the free spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles, as prophesied by Christ, the prophets and the apostles, and Satan's inability to thwart that because of spiritual restraint.

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And this would be consistent with believing the millennium symbolically represents a time frame between 2 points. however, in your neo-amil position, it puts the time frame of the gospel's free spread to the gentiles or "church age" from the 1st advent until the release of satan. Then there is a short period of mass deceiving, apostasy, and church persecution, followed by the 2nd coming.

My position is that the 1,000 years is not symbolic for a time frame between 2 points, but is symbolically representative of the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant. This is like the perfect tense verb. the perfect tense verb is a completed action in the past with ongoing effects. The completed action of Christ's 1st advent resulted in satan being bound, in order for the gospel to go out to the nations, and cast out to persecute the church. The completed action of Christ's 1st advent resulted in the gospel going to then nations, and those accepting this gospel to be born again and become a kingdom of priests.

sovereigngrace said:

That will all change at the end, when that advance is curtailed by the kingdom of darkness just before at end, just prior to the second coming, in Satan's little season, according to Revelation 20, 2 Thess 2, and other Scripture. See my post #377 above.

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so gospel becomes less effective just before the 2nd coming?

sovereigngrace said:

Revelation 20:3 plainly states meta tauta (or) "after that he (Satan) must be loosed a little season.” This begs a crucial question: after what is Satan's "little season" introduced? The answer has to be “after” the 1,000 years (regardless of whether this represents a literal or indefinite symbolic period) are teleo are ended, expired, completed, executed, concluded, finished and fulfilled.

If it is not “after” the 1,000 years are “fulfilled” (Revelation 20:3) / “expired” (Revelation 20:7) then what is it after?

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I absolutely agree that satan is loosed after/upon completion of the 1,000 years, I haven't stated otherwise.

However, According to tradtional Amillennialism, the 1,000 years is symbolic for the time between the ascension and 2nd coming, and not the time from the ascension to satan's little season.

1.) A MOD from another forum defines the Amil position as symbolic for starting at Christ's ascension and ending with the return of Christ:

Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

"One particular problem is the use of term amillennialism. Amillennialism means no millennial period set between two specific events in history matching 1000 years. In the amillennial view, the 1000 years is symbolic and starts at the Ascension of Christ and ends with the physical return of Christ at the Second coming. "

2.) The Millennial Kingdom by John Walvoord in regards to Amillinnialsim:

"The present age is between the first and second comings is the fulfillment of the millennium. Its adherents are divided on whether the millennium is being fulfilled now on earth (Augustine) or whether it is being fulfilled by the saints in heaven (Kliefoth)".

3.) From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner quoting from J.G. Vos:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

4.) Even theopedia defines it the same way:

Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return"


However, if this is not traditional Amillennialism, please provide support that the millennium is symbolic for the time between the cross and satan's little season.

claninja said:

I absolutely agree that satan is loosed after/upon completion of the 1,000 years, I haven't stated otherwise. However, According to tradtional Amillennialism, the 1,000 years is symbolic for the time between the ascension and 2nd coming, and not the time from the ascension to satan's little season.

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You've repeated this so many times in the thread. Is there a point / a conclusion that you'd like to make? What difference does it make whether satan's "little season" is at the end of the Millennium or immediately after end of the Millennium? It's not like people will wake up one day and the Millennium will be over. The ending will be gradual. It sounds like you're splitting hairs.

Andrewn said:

You've repeated this so many times in this thread. Is there a point / a conclusion that you'd like to make?

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The traditional position of Amillennialism is that the 1,000 years is symbolic for the time between that began at ascension and ends at the physical 2nd coming.

SG stated this was false and asked me to provide quotes supporting this position. I provided 4 quotes, including a MOD from CF, that states Amil believes the 1,000 years is symbolic for the period between the ascension and 2nd coming. SG has not addressed these quotes and so for been unable to provide any evidence that my argument is false. and yet continues to quote my posts without providing any quotational evidence for his position on the traditional Amil belief, for which he demanded of me.

So i guess I’m confused why you are asking me this. Why not ask SG what his thoughts are on the 4 quotes I provided or what is SG’s evidence that traditional Amils believe the 1,000 is symbolic for the time between the ascension and Satan’s little season.

or how about why sg refuses to address Satan being bound and yet able to deceive as an angel of light? Or how Satan is bound but can roam and devour weaker Christians, or how satan is bound and apostasy was occurring in the 1st century? Or how Satan was bound but was able to use the Jews to persecute the church in the 1st century? Or how the gospel will be overtaken by the kingdom of darkness for a brief period according to his belief?

sovereigngrace said:

• I have showed you that Satan and the beast was alive and kicking 2000 years ago. You ignore that!
• I have showed you that their murderous intent and behavior has been alive and kicking for 2000 years ago. You ignore that!
• I have showed you that the binding of Satan is spiritual and relates to the restraint from stopping the advance of the great commission. You ignore that!

We must not forget the fact that the life-span of the beast is not restricted to the “forty and two months” (Revelation 13:4-5), just like it isn't restricted to the “one hour,” mentioned in Revelation 17:11-12, as the beast existed before John’s time, at the time of John, and after John's day. This text above again proves this and shows that the beast “is of the seven” preceding earthly empires. The beast that transcends all these rebellious kingdoms must be the more general anti-Christ spirit of this world. This is Satan’s overall iniquitous agency from which all the rest emanate. It is the source, the other wicked systems and kings are merely tributaries. Moreover, the beast wields influence throughout time and therefore this intra-Advent period over all those “whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 17:8).

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Let me try another angle.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Since you obviously don't think this fits after chapter 19, where else in the book of Revelation do you propose this fits after? Obviously, it has to fit after satan has been cast out of heaven unto the earth. If an angel comes down from heaven to cast satan into the pit, the only logical place the angel would be coming down to is the earth, therefore satan would obviously have to be on the earth at the time. What I'm asking, after what events in Revelation, since you disagree it's meaning after any events recorded in chapter 19, do you propose that John sees this angel coming down from heaven, then casting satan into the pit? How does it make sense that an angel comes down from heaven to cast satan in the pit, except satan is not actually on the earth at the time? It doesn't.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

After what events in the verses above do you propose John saw an angel come down from heaven and cast him into the pit? One thing that seems obvious, assuming Amil is the correct position, John can't see an angel coming down from heaven then casting satan into the pit prior to verse 13.

claninja said:

Correct. It was at the cross that satan was cast out per Jesus' own words:

John 12:31-33 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

Thus I use John 12:31-33 to interpret revelation 12.

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As to Revelation 12, I don't see the cross being focused on in that chapter, but I do see the ascension being focused on, that meaning Revelation 12:5. Obviously, the time of the cross occurs during the events recorded in Revelation 12, except that chapter doesn't appear to be focusing on that in particular. As to the war in heaven, then satan being cast out, it would have to be after the ascension when any of that occurs. And if satan is bound in this age like Amils claim, it would have to be after the ascension as well.

Regardless what all I submitted above, you do make a good point about using John 12:31-33 to interpret Revelation 12. Maybe your argument in this case trumps mine, I'm not sure yet. For the time being I'm at least acknowledging that it could.

claninja said:

or how about why sg refuses to address Satan being bound and yet able to deceive as an angel of light? Or how Satan is bound but can roam and devour weaker Christians, or how satan is bound and apostasy was occurring in the 1st century? Or how Satan was bound but was able to use the Jews to persecute the church in the 1st century? Or how the gospel will be overtaken by the kingdom of darkness for a brief period according to his belief?

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You and I might not agree on the timing of some of these things, but at least we appear to be on the same page here.