A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

Christian Gedge · Mar 25, 2020

keras said:
586 BC is the known date of the Babylonian Conquest of Judah. A historical fact.
I use it in order to tie the Bible information to the Gregorian calendar.

Bible dates are usually given on the Julian calendar. We can extrapolate our Gregorian calendar back, but its not often done that way. Which calendar are you using for your Bible dates?

keras · Mar 25, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
Bible dates are usually given on the Julian calendar. We can extrapolate our Gregorian calendar back, but its not often done that way. Which calendar are you using for your Bible dates?

Where in the Bible is any dates, Julian or Gregorian?

When we have a Bible event that we know the date of from historical info, then it is simple to work both ways; add or subtract and obtain calendar dates for all the Biblical events.
This I have done, I can't see why people have any problem with it.

Christian Gedge · Mar 25, 2020

keras said:
Where in the Bible is any dates, Julian or Gregorian?

I don't understand what you are saying. There are hundreds of dates in the Bible, and I said they are usually given on the Julian calendar. You yourself mentioned the Babylonian conquest of Judah in 586 BC.

sovereigngrace · Mar 25, 2020

claninja said:
Thanks SG, I really appreciate this. I agree that many use the teachings of the ECF with a biased eschatology in attempt to show "look the ECFs do agree with [insert eschatological view]".

Looking back on your post #143 with the list of 12 Amils, would you be able to provide any writings from them where they comment on the millenium or revelation 20 or even condemn chiliasm?

I agree that as time went on, the ECFs became more vocal in their condemnation of Chiliasm, but I am having a hard time finding this in the earlier Church fathers, specifically the list of 12 that you provided.

thanks again SG.

Within early Chiliasm, there was a conviction by some of the early Chiliasts like Irenaeus and Tertullian that there was an unfolding “pre-arranged plan for the exaltation of the just” following death. This was otherwise described as “the methods by which they [the righteous] are disciplined beforehand for incorruption” or “the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved” or “God’s dispensations.” He also called his theory “the law of the dead.” These dispensations were believed to occur in stages. Believers were thought to “advance through steps of this nature.”

These early Chiliasts believed that the elect would first enter Hades upon death to undergo spiritual purgation in a disembodied state to prepare them for a future millennial earth. This, they believed, was a reparation for previous sins in life and a disciplining of the soul for the age to come. They held that at the second coming believers would receive their resurrected bodies and join Christ on a renovated earth to enjoy a millennial Sabbath. This involved a further probationary period lasting 1,000 years+ process where the elect would become “accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature.” The result of these two examinations would then determine the eternal home of God’s people. God’s people would then be divided into 3 and be ushered into 3 separate eternal abodes – (1) heaven, (2) paradise or (3) the new Jerusalem.

Where did Irenaeus and Tertullian get this whole idea of discipline, reparation and gradation in the intermediate state? It is likely from Papias. Papias is a writer who Irenaeus seemed to admire and who seemed to have a marked influence upon his theology. Even though we have scant existing writings from Papias we have some fragments that would seem to lend support to our contention. Amazingly, Papias seems to attribute his teaching directly to the New Testament leaders. He writes:

"The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; and that, moreover, they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father; and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father" (Fragment 5).

In Papias’ mind, life, the intermediate state and a future millennium upon the earth seem to be 3 testing stepping stones that occur before the believer experiences full incorruption in the eternal abode. He then applies 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 to a millennial state:

"[A]s it is said by the apostle, 'For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death'. For in the times of the kingdom the just man who is on the earth shall forget to die. “But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all” (Fragment 5).

In Papias’ teaching, at the end of a future millennial kingdom, righteous men are assigned to one of three eternal abodes, all dependent on the faithfulness of their journey through life, their intermediate state disciplining, and a millennial assessment. Papias teaches:

"As the presbyters say, then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him. But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city; and that on this account the Lord said, “In my Father's house are many mansions:” for all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place, even as His word says, that a share is given to all by the Father, according as each one is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch in which they shall recline who feast, being invited to the wedding."

Papias outlines three distinct destinations for believers based on how much fruit they produce:

· 1st class: 30-fold – Heaven – (Spirit)
· 2nd class: 60-fold – Paradise – (Son)
· 3rd class: 100-fold - The City – presumably the New Jerusalem: (Father)

While there was widespread support amongst early Chiliasts that deceased, believers descended into Hades upon death and then rose to inherit a millennial earth when Christ returns, most saw the intermediate state and a future millennium as places of rest, rather than places of purgation. Papias, Irenaeus and Tertullian seem to be the only writers amongst the early Chiliast fathers that promoted this three-step discipline system. But when it came to the overall order of travel of a believer in life and the afterlife, there seemed to be blanket agreement amongst these millenialists.

Those who held to this view were bold in expressing their viewpoint and were not particularly tolerant of any alternative school of thought. The only existing orthodox alternative to that understanding was ancient Amillennialism. Its adherents believed Jesus had overcome sin, death, Hades and Satan. They believe therefore that these had no enduring hold over the believer. They expected when Christians passed away they would rise immediately in spirit into the heavenly abode to be with Christ. They also held that the second coming ushered in the end of time; this would see the removal of this current corrupt earth and the introduction of the new heavens and new earth.

Even though the early Chiliasts recognized those who believed in a climactic coming of Christ as orthodox brethren, they often likened their beliefs on the intermediate state to the heretical Gnostics who believed God’s people went direct into the presence of God upon death. They used the Gnostic slur in an attempt to discredit those who believed in a heavenly intermediate state and a climactic return of Christ.

sovereigngrace · Mar 25, 2020

claninja said:
Thanks SG, I really appreciate this. I agree that many use the teachings of the ECF with a biased eschatology in attempt to show "look the ECFs do agree with [insert eschatological view]".

Looking back on your post #143 with the list of 12 Amils, would you be able to provide any writings from them where they comment on the millenium or revelation 20 or even condemn chiliasm?

I agree that as time went on, the ECFs became more vocal in their condemnation of Chiliasm, but I am having a hard time finding this in the earlier Church fathers, specifically the list of 12 that you provided.

thanks again SG.

As you explore the developing theological rivalry between ancient Chiliasm and ancient Amillennialism over the 400 years after the cross you see that the main charge from ancient Chiliasts toward ancient Amillennialists was that they were siding with Gnostic heresy, while the charge from ancient Amillennialists in the opposite direction was that ancient Chiliasts was siding with apostate Judaism.

Chiliasts Justin, Irenaeus and Tertullian all acknowledged that there were many genuine established orthodox advocates who rejected the Chiliast viewpoint. Irenaeus testifies:

"Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain [orthodox persons] are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God’s dispensations, and of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the [earthly] kingdom which is the commencement of incorruption, by means of which kingdom those who shall be worthy are accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature (capere Deum)" (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 32)

Basically, these notable orthodox opponents rejected the Chiliast blueprint concerning the gradation of believers after death. This involved the idea of a purgatory-style intermediate state in Hades before the second coming and then the idea of another purgatory-style age in between “this age” (time) and “the age to come” (eternity). It also involved a stripping that supposedly equipped the saints to partake of the divine nature.” These early Amillennialists also never accepted the existence of and the gradual improvement of the resurrected saints on a future millennial earth. They rather held that glorification perfected the people of God for all eternity when Jesus comes.

We should not overlook the fact that Irenaeus saw “the resurrection of the just” ushering in “the [earthly] kingdom which is the commencement of incorruption.” This is notable because Irenaeus later places the judgment of believers after the completion of his future millennium. This phrase “the commencement of incorruption” intimated that the saints still had training to undergo in a future millennium before they were prepared for the eternal state.

Irenaeus attacked the Amillennialists who believed that the dead in Christ ascended immediately into the presence of God after their departure from this life. He censured those who opposed his belief that the righteous dead went direct to Hades to be tested upon death to await the second coming. He likened their views to those of the heretics:

"Since … some who are reckoned among the orthodox go beyond the pre-arranged plan for the exaltation of the just, and are ignorant of the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incorruption, they thus entertain heretical opinions. For the heretics, despising the handiwork of God, and not admitting the salvation of their flesh, while they also treat the promise of God contemptuously, and pass beyond God altogether in the sentiments they form, affirm that immediately upon their death they shall pass above the heavens and the Demiurge, and go to the Mother (Achamoth) or to that Father whom they have feigned. Those persons, therefore, who disallow a resurrection affecting the whole man (universam reprobant resurrectionem), and as far as in them lies remove it from the midst [of the Christian scheme], how can they be wondered at, if again they know nothing as to the plan of the resurrection?" (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 31:1).

Irenaeus wasn’t suggesting that the orthodox Amillennial advocates in any way rejected the physical resurrection when Jesus comes, after all, to believe such would immediately nullify their orthodox credentials; it would also invalidate the distinction and comparison between the mainstream and the heretics. It would place them far outside the pale of orthodoxy. He simply disagreed with them dividing up the ascent of the inward man and the physical man in the whole process. He believed that soul and spirit would not be perfected until the physical is at the second advent. In his reasoning, he is out of step with most sound Premillennialists today of whatever shade.

Basically, Irenaeus rebuked his opponents for (1) rejecting “the pre-arranged plan for the exaltation of the just” – which he held to involve an intermediate state in Hades, and a millennial kingdom in-between the second coming and the new heavens and new earth. Also, he challenged (2) their “ignorant of the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incorruption,” essentially their denial of a two-tier method of refining the elect after death in Hades and in a future millennial kingdom, preparing them for eternity.

Fellow Chiliast Justin also acknowledged that there were many sincere brethren among the orthodox who rejected this theology. Justin asked Trypho (his Jewish opponent):

"Tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies?" I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise" (Dialogue with Trypho: Chapter 80).

Justin admits that there were many sincere non-millennialist believers in his day. But like Irenaeus, he tried to discredit his opponent’s theology by partially linking their beliefs to the heretical Gnostics. The only apparent difference between Justin and Irenaeus’ teaching seems to be that Justin advanced nothing in regard to the just being “disciplined beforehand for incorruption.” That in itself does not prove that he didn’t believe such. He definitely held to the general format Irenaeus taught. He argued:

"I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. But that you may know that I do not say this before you alone, I shall draw up a statement, so far as I can, of all the arguments which have passed between us; in which I shall record myself as admitting the very same things which I admit to you. For I choose to follow not men or men's doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genist, Meristae, Gelilaeans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews (do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are [only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him" (Dialogue with Trypho: Chapter 80).

While Justin’s disagreement with those Amillennial brethren “who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians” was focused on the destiny of God’s people after death, and the state and duration of the earth after Christ’s return, Justin like Irenaeus outlined his full opposition to the Gnostics, and their belief that “there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven.” Again, there is no suggestion that his opposition to his non-Chiliast brethren was based on their denial of a future physical resurrection but rather that they shared an opposition to the intermediate state of the elect being in Hades and a future age in between this age and the eternal state.

Tertullian agrees with the general theology of the previous Chiliast writers and also shares their concern of fellow believers rejecting the idea of the immediately movement of the souls of dead believers to stay in Hades. He explains:

"Although Christ is God, yet, being also man, He died according to the Scriptures, and according to the same Scriptures was buried. With the same law of His being He fully complied, by remaining in Hades in the form and condition of a dead man; nor did He ascend into the heights of heaven before descending into the lower parts of the earth, that He might there make the patriarchs and prophets partakers of Himself. (This being the case), you must suppose Hades to be a subterranean region, and keep at arm's length those who are too proud to believe that the souls of the faithful deserve a place in the lower regions. These persons, who are servants above their Lord, and disciples above their Master, would no doubt spurn to receive the comfort of the resurrection, if they must expect it in Abraham's bosom" (A Treatise on the Soul, Chapter 55).

Tertullian is clearly frustrated by his fellow orthodox brethren who do not see the elect populating Hades since the cross. While opposing the non-Chiliast position, Tertullian still recognizes these adversaries as “servants” of “their Lord,” “the faithful” and “disciples” of “their Master.” Tertullian then outlines the theology of these orthodox teachers, which we will see is nothing more than classic mainstream dogma within Christendom today. This shows us that early Chiliasm is a completely different animal to that of modern Premillennialism.

Irenaeus also supports his position by alluding to our Lord’s journey after death:

"For no disciple is above the Master, but every one that is perfect shall be as his Master. As our Master, therefore, did not at once depart, taking flight [to heaven], but awaited the time of His resurrection prescribed by the Father, which had been also shown forth through Jonas, and rising again after three days was taken up [to heaven]; so ought we also to await the time of our resurrection prescribed by God and foretold by the prophets, and so, rising, be taken up, as many as the Lord shall account worthy of this [privilege]" (Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 31:2).

Support for the idea that the righteous will temporarily stay in Abraham’s bosom is taken from Christ’s journey after death. The writer contends that because Christ had to travel this journey after death then so should His followers. Irenaeus claims the Lord’s disciples followed the exact same pre-arranged path as their Lord.

Tertullian mocks a heavenly intermediate state, attributing such a belief to the pagans, in The Apology, Chapter XLVII:

"And if we speak of Paradise, the place of heavenly bliss appointed to receive the spirits of the saints, severed from the knowledge of this world by that fiery zone as by a sort of enclosure, the Elysian plains have taken possession of their faith. Whence is it, I pray you have all this, so like us, in the poets and philosophers?"

We should not overlook that early Premillennialists considered “Paradise” as “the place of heavenly bliss.” Hades (Abraham’s bosom) was not such a place. They believed that the New Jerusalem with descend from the heavenly abode when Christ comes to set up His millennial kingdom. It is only then that the souls of the righteous dead would experience final bliss. Elsewhere he confronts the Amillennialist position:

"But it was for this purpose, say they, that Christ descended into hell, that we might not ourselves have to descend there. Well, then, what difference is there between heathens and Christians, if the same prison awaits them all when dead?" (A Treatise on the Soul, Chapter 55).

The whole thrust of Tertullian’s argument revolves around the fact that a heavenly intermediate state should be rejected because the Gnostics poets and philosophers believed such. This is certainly weak reasoning. The belief attributed to the early Amillennialists is certainly a solid orthodox statement of faith and one that would be broadly held by most Bible believing Christians in our day – regardless of their eschatological perspective.

Tertullian responds to his Amillennial opponents, refuting the idea of a heavenly paradise upon death:

"How, indeed, shall the soul mount up to heaven, where Christ is already sitting at the Father's right hand, when as yet the archangel’s trumpet has not been heard by the command of God, — when as yet those whom the coming of the Lord is to find on the earth, have not been caught up into the air to meet Him at His coming, in company with the dead in Christ, who shall be the first to arise? To no one is heaven opened; the earth is still safe for him, I would not say it is shut against him. When the world, indeed, shall pass away, then the kingdom of heaven shall be opened. Shall we then have to sleep high up in ether, with the boy-loving worthies of Plato; or in the air with Arius; or around the moon with the Endymions of the Stoics? No, but in Paradise, you tell me, whither already the patriarchs and prophets have removed from Hades in the retinue of the Lord's resurrection. How is it, then, that the region of Paradise, which as revealed to John in the Spirit lay under the altar, displays no other souls as in it besides the souls of the martyrs?"

He adds:

"How is it that the most heroic martyr Perpetua on the day of her passion saw only her fellow martyrs there, in the revelation which she received of Paradise, if it were not that the sword which guarded the entrance permitted none to go in thereat, except those who had died in Christ and not in Adam? A new death for God, even the extraordinary one for Christ, is admitted into the reception-room of mortality, specially altered and adapted to receive the new-comer. Observe, then, the difference between a heathen and a Christian in their death: if you have to lay down your life for God, as the Comforter counsels, it is not in gentle fevers and on soft beds, but in the sharp pains of martyrdom: you must take up the cross and bear it after your Master, as He has Himself instructed you. The sole key to unlock Paradise is your own life's blood."

Tertullian is relentless in his pursuit of the early orthodox Amillenialists. The time and passion that he and other Chiliasts put into refuting their brethren is testimony to the popularity of the opposing view among the early Church. Plainly, Amillenialism was a definite threat to the influence of Chiliasm. In fact, outside of their refutation of the heretics, there was nothing that was stronger challenged. This was an evidently a thorn in their side.

From the many censures that the main early Chiliast writers presented, it is safe to say there was a strong movement of non-Chiliasts who held to a different view on the intermediate state and the impending new earth. But their biggest concern did not seem to be their view of the millennial earth but rather their conviction that the spirit of the deceased elect rises to be with immediately with Christ at the moment of death.

Finally, in another place, Tertullian refutes the idea that mediums have the ability to call up spirits from Hades. He argues:

God forbid, however, that we should suppose that the soul of any saint, much less of a prophet, can be dragged out of (its resting-place in Hades) by a demon … the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul, has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment. No one, (he said,) could possibly be despatched from those abodes to report to us how matters went in the nether regions,—a purpose which, (if any could be,) might have been allowable on such an occasion, to persuade a belief in Moses and the prophets (A Treatise on the Soul, Chapter LVII)

keras · Mar 25, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
I don't understand what you are saying. There are hundreds of dates in the Bible, and I said they are usually given on the Julian calendar. You yourself mentioned the Babylonian conquest of Judah in 586 BC.

None of the Bible verses give us dates in the Gregorian or Julian calendar. We have to calculate them from the historical record, to match them with our calendar system.
Your Bible may have them as side notes, but take care: the translators can be wrong.
The date of 586 BC for the Bab. conquest is determined from 2 Kings 25:8-12 On the 7th day of the 5th month of the 19th year of King Nebuchadnezzar...Jerusalem was burnt, the walls flattened and the people deported.
The Kings library, in the British Museum, enables us to establish 586 BC for this event.

BTW, I am getting my timeline checked by a retired secondary math teacher.
And just to make you envious; there's good fishing now in the Thames firth.

Why people spend time and effort in the writings of anyone since the Apostles, beats me. They are all clueless, just as Daniel 12:4, Isaiah 29:9-12, + says.
The Bible prophets are the only source for what God plans for our future.

Andrewn · Mar 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
We should not overlook the fact that Irenaeus saw “the resurrection of the just” ushering in “the [earthly] kingdom which is the commencement of incorruption.” This is notable because Irenaeus later places the judgment of believers after the completion of his future millennium. This phrase “the commencement of incorruption” intimated that the saints still had training to undergo in a future millennium before they were prepared for the eternal state.

Thank you for the comprehensive review. It's interesting to note that early Premil is closer to LDS Premil than to dispensational Premil.

One hallmark of modern Premil is belief in the release of satan after the Millennium and the war of Gog & Magog. Is there a trace of this belief in early Premil writings?

Andrewn · Mar 26, 2020

keras said:
The Kings library, in the British Museum, enables us to establish 586 BC for this event.

BTW, I am getting my timeline checked by a retired secondary math teacher.
And just to make you envious; there's good fishing now in the Thames firth.

Kia ora:

The Fall of Jerusalem took place in 587 BC.

"The publication of the Babylonian Chronicles in 1956, however, gave evidence that the years of Zedekiah were measured in a non-accession sense. This reckoning makes 598/597 BC, the year Zedekiah was installed by Nebuchadnezzar according to Judah's Tishri-based calendar, to be year "one", so that the fall of Jerusalem in his eleventh year would have been 588/587 BC, i.e. in the summer of 587 BCE. The Bablyonian Chronicles fairly precisely date the capture of Jehoiachin and the start of Zedekiah's reign, and they also give the accession year of Nebuchadnezzar's successor Amel-Marduk (Evil Merodach) as 562/561 BC, which was the 37th year of Jehoiachin's captivity according to 2 Kings 25:27. These Babylonian records related to Jehoiachin's reign are consistent with the fall of the city in 587 but not in 586, vindicating Albright's reckoning."

Kings of Judah - Wikipedia

sovereigngrace · Mar 26, 2020

Andrewn said:
Thank you for the comprehensive review. It's interesting to note that early Premil is closer to LDS Premil than to dispensational Premil.

One hallmark of modern Premil is belief in the release of satan after the Millennium and the war of Gog & Magog. Is there a trace of this belief in early Premil writings?

It is funny you asked. I looked at this yesterday. It is always interesting to observe the historic development of any doctrine within the Church. In Jewish apocalyptic writings there was no teaching on Satan being bound and released after a thousand years. There was consequently no teaching on Satan deceiving the nations as the sand of sea at the end and surrounding the saints. Revelation 20 was unknown and unacceptable to apostate Judaism.

As you read the very early Chiliasts, there is a strange silence regarding the binding of Satan at Christ’s return. There is, though, quite a bit of teaching amongst these millennialists of this binding occurring through the earthly ministry of Christ, as Amillennialism believes.

Tertullian (160 – 240 AD) is the first Chiliast to cite the casting of Satan into the bottomless pit at the second coming, although he makes no reference to his release or resulting malevolence. While he doesn’t directly mention the devil being bound or chained, it can be inferred with his casting into the abyss.

Tertullian is believed to have come to faith around 190AD. He became a presbyter of the church around 197AD. About 207 he aligned himself with Montanism. It was after this that he is believed to have begun his writings. The fact that it took until the early third centuries for this viewpoint to arise and get established within orthodox circles is not insignificant.

Tertullian’s description of this event is limited to one brief passing statement, with no enlargement, relating to Satan being cast into the abyss:

"After the casting of the devil into the bottomless pit for a while, the blessed prerogative of the first resurrection may be ordained from the thrones” (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter" XXV).

But he makes no reference to his release from the abyss in any of his writings. In another writing (Against Marcion, Book III, Chapter XXV), he describes the end of the millennium, but it is climactic and he is silent on our adversary’s fate, and therefore any allusion to Satan’s season or any rebellion by the nations:

"Of the heavenly kingdom this is the process. After its thousand years are over, within which period is completed the resurrection of the saints, who rise sooner or later according to their deserts, there will ensue the destruction of the world and the conflagration of all things at the judgment: we shall then be changed in a moment into the substance of angels, even by the investiture of an incorruptible nature, and so be removed to that kingdom in heaven of which we have now been treating."

There is no mention of, or allowance for, Satan’s little season after the millennium is over. There is no uprising of Gog and Magog to surround the saints. There even seems to be a deliberate reluctance to go there. The most Premils can advance from Tertullian’s works is arguments from silence or pure inference.

Significantly, teaching on a release of Satan 1,000 years after the second coming and the widespread deception of the nations on the millennial earth is scarce in the writings of the early church fathers. The early Chiliast were either (1) uncomfortable with the idea of the future earth being saturated with the wicked and with Satan leading them to surround Christ and the saints on the new earth 1,000 years+ after Christ’s glorious return, (2) were ignorant of (3) it or it didn't fit the Jewish Chiliasm that influenced Chiliasm for the first few hundred years after the cross. Any reluctance is perfectly understandable as it is one of the most unpalatable aspects of modern-Premil.

There is good reason to suspect that this belief was largely confined within Africa for the first 400 years after the cross. The only exceptions to this seem to be Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170 – 236) and Victorinus Pettau, Upper Pannonia (270AD). However, the thousand years Hippolytus anticipated seems to relate to an actual natural day - the actual physical day of the Lord’s return, thus more akin to modern day Amillennialism. Hippolytus explains:

"In the end of times, the Devil is to be bound and to be flung into the bottomless pit, when the Lord comes; even as Esaias hath said, that the wicked shall be taken away in order that he see not the glory of the Lord. And the number of the years is not the number of days, but it represents the space of one day, glorious and perfect; in which, when the King comes in glory with His slain, the creation is to shine … Accordingly, when with the eye of the spirit John saw the glory of that day, he likened it to the space of a thousand years; according to the saying, One day in the world of the righteous is as a thousand years. And by the number he shows that day to be perfect, for those that are faithful.

But as for what he has said, that after the thousand years he shall be loosed, and shall deceive the nations, it is this: that justly he is to be loosed, and to be cast into the burning, and to be judged; with those who from old time were gathered together with him, when he gathered the strangers of the kingdom, and Gog and Magog."

Hippolytus mentions a loosing of Satan but it seems to be in the context of the millennium being a single day. We should examine this strange theology a bit deeper, which seems unique among the early fathers. Firstly, he definitely anticipates the fulfillment of the millennium and therefore Revelation 20 in the future. Secondly, the writer is telling us that we should not interpret the 1000 years literally here. We should not understand the “thousand years” in terms of “the number of days” but should rather look upon them as representing “the space of one day, glorious and perfect; in which, when the King comes in glory with His slain, the creation is to shine.” Thirdly, whilst Hippolytus suggests the millennium is future the coming of Christ is final and climactic. Fourthly, Gog and Magog are not millennial inhabitants. They seem to be the wicked who followed Satan "from old time" who are raised up at the very end. Fifthly, Satan's season seems to relate the judgment of the wicked. Sixthly, Gog and Magog only come on the scene at the time when judgment is finally executed - judgment day. While this is strange to the modern day Bible student, there were many strange doctrines floating about amongst the early fathers.

Victorinus was the first of the orthodox writers to detail Satan’s release after a literal thousand years in the future, and also describe his baleful influence on the wicked nations after the millennium, albeit in a fleeting manner. He briefly states:

"And the scarlet devil is imprisoned and all his fugitive angels in the Tartarus of Gehenna at the coming of the Lord; no one is ignorant of this. And after the thousand years he is released, because of the nations which will have served Antichrist: so that they alone might perish, as they deserved. Then is the general judgment"(Revelation commentary: 20.1).

Victorinus doesn’t elaborate any more on his position. This is the totality of his surviving views. We should remind ourselves at this juncture, this was written in AD 270, which was 240 after the cross. So, for the first 240 years of the early church this key element of Premil was unknown to the early church writers. This is very telling!

Lactantius from Africa (250 - 317 AD) is the first to go into any real recognizable detail on the subject. It is amazing allowing for the amount of Chiliast writings we still possess for there to be such a dearth of detail up until Lactantius in the early 4th century.

In his writings, he first of all describes Satan’s binding and the reason for such:

"They who shall be raised from the dead shall preside over the living as judges. But the nations shall not be entirely extinguished, but some shall be left as a victory for God, that they may be the occasion of triumph to the righteous, and may be subjected to perpetual slavery. About the same time also the prince of the devils, who is the contriver of all evils, shall be bound with chains, and shall be imprisoned during the thousand years of the heavenly rule in which righteousness shall reign in the world, so that he may contrive no evil against the people of God" (Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Book VII, Chapter XXIV).

Lactantius’ African colleague Commodianus (who wrote between AD 251 and 258) is the only other Chiliast to suggest that a notable amount of the wicked survive the return of Christ and enter in to populate a future millennium. However, Commodianus makes no mention of Satan being bound, imprisoned and therefore released, or commanding the nations at the end in any type of assault on the righteous. While Victorinus did previously make a passing comment about Satan being released, “because of the nations which will have served Antichrist,” he doesn’t expand and delineate their activity, numbers, location and influence.

Lactantius continues:

"He also, when the thousand years of the kingdom, that is, seven thousand of the world, shall begin to be ended, will be loosed afresh, and being sent forth from prison, will go forth and assemble all the nations, which shall then be trader the dominion of the righteous, that they may make war against the holy city; and there shall be collected together from all the world an innumerable company of the nations, and shall besiege and surround the city. Then the last anger of God shall come upon the nations, and shall utterly destroy them" (Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Book VII, Chapter XXVI).

Here, the evil one, is depicted as gathering the nations together at the end of a forthcoming millennium to launch and assault upon the people of God. He adds

When the thousand years shall be fulfilled, and the prince of the demons loosed, the nations will rebel against the righteous, and an innumerable multitude will come to storm the city of the saints. Then the last judgment of God will come to pass against the nations (Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Book VII, Chapter LXXII).

This is the first early writer that we come across that delineates detailed recognizable modern Premil teaching. While Victorinus hints at it, and Commodianus advances some key points that would be familiar to those who hold the same today, it is left to Lactantius to be thorough and specific.

The next early father that we come across that advances the idea of Satan being bound/loosed in a future age is Quintus Julius Hilarianus. He too was an African. He wrote around 397 AD. He argues:

"When the Antichrist has been overcome and killed at the completion of the six thousand years, the resurrection of all the saints will take place while the world still stands … To the saints the resurrection will be one day, but this day of the saints will be prolonged so much that to the evil who will be living with pain in the world it will number a thousand years. After the seven-thousandth year, Satan will be loosed from his prison and will go forth to seduce the nations of Gog and Magog. He will bring them together as if ready to fight at the camp of the saints. Fire will descend from heaven and all men will be consumed, and then will be the second resurrection for all flesh and all will be judged by the just judgment of God because they have not all believed, but have done justice pleasing to themselves" (The Progress of Time, Chapter 18 & 19).

claninja · Mar 26, 2020

Thanks for taking the time to post these SG

sovereigngrace said:
The Didache (or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles)
Palestine
(A.D. 65-80)

Chapter X

5 Remember, Lord, thy Church, to redeem it from every evil, and to perfect it in thy love, and gather it together from the four winds, even that which has been sanctified for thy kingdom which thou hast prepared for it; for thine is the kingdom and the glory for ever.
6 Let grace come, and let this world pass away.

The Didache’s transcript (which is actually a petition) looks forward to the Second Coming (the day of redemption), when the saints will finally receive their new glorified bodies and be perfected. The writer looks for both Christ and a new righteous arrangement that He will introduce, with the succinct appeal: “Let grace come.” The narrative essentially embodies an earnest supplication for the Lord to rescue the Church from its alien earthly sojourn and introduce eternal justice. Whether the statement “Let grace come” is referring to the personally appearance of Christ Himself, to the perfect state He will introduce, or to both matters little, the early writer connects this impending event with the end of the world: “Let grace come, and let this world pass away.”

While the Didache seems to mention a little from the olivet discourse in the quote"gather it together from the 4 winds......for thy kingdom". This doesn't mention anything about revelation 20 or the millennium, which I was hoping you would produce. Thus I am still unsure on the didaches position of the millennium.

Using this same argument style, I could say that because the temple destruction isn't mentioned didache, it must have been written prior to the temple destruction and therefore supports preterism. I know that wouldn't be a good enough argument for you, so you'll have to understand that the non mention of the millennium does not help me understand this author's position on it, whether literal or spiritual.

sovereigngrace said:
The grandsons of Jude
Palestine
(1st century)

Eusebius from his classic work The History of the Church says, speaking of the grandsons of Jude, “the grandsons of Jude ... when asked [by the Emperor Domitian] about Christ and his kingdom--what it was like, and where it would appear – they explained that it was not of this world or anywhere on earth but angelic and in heaven, and would be established at the end of the world, when he would come in glory to judge the quick and the dead, and give to every one according to his works."

Here, Jude articulates the traditional expectation of the Amillennialist in regard to the Second Coming. First it doesn’t happen until “the end of the world.” Secondly it witnesses the judgement and resurrection of all the living and dead. This clear climactic account is said to occur when Christ comes in all His “glory.”

While I agree, it is possible that the grandsons of Jude believed the millennium as spiritual, This is a 2nd or 3rd or 4th hand account from a couple hundred years later. It also doesn't tell us what the grandsons of Jude believed specifically about the millennium or revelation 20.

sovereigngrace said:
Ignatius Bishop of Antioch
Syria
(A.D. 98-117)

Chapter XI (11) – I write these things to warn you

He (Jesus) died, and rose again, and ascended into the heavens to Him that sent Him, and is sat down at His right hand, and shall come at the end of the world, with His Father’s glory, to judge the living and the dead, and to render to every one according to his works.

This text is covered in classic Amillennial language. Ignatius places Christ’s coming “at the end of the world,” thus negating the possibility of a thousand year earthly millennium. In addition, the purpose of His coming is expressly “to judge the living and the dead, and to render to every one according to his works,” not to reign from some earthly temple made by human hands. Here the whole of Adam’s race is depicted as being judged at the Lord’s return. This ancient writer certainly foresaw an all-consummating return of Jesus.

This one is interesting because the text you quoted is from the "long recension" which is believed to be a product of a 4th century arian Christian who added to the text in order to use Ignatius as a theological witness. The middle, and not the long version, is believe to the be true one.

(source: Ignatius of Antioch - Wikipedia)

CH Hooles translation does not contain your above quote:
" The last times are come upon us. Let us therefore be of a reverent spirit, and fear the long-suffering of God, that it tend not to our condemnation. For let us either stand in awe of the wrath to come, or show regard for the grace which is at present displayed--one of two things. Only[in one way or another] let us be found in Christ Jesus unto the true life. Apart from Him, let nothing attract you, for whom I bear about these bonds, these spiritual jewels, by which may I arise through your prayers, of which I entreat I may always be a partaker, that I may be found in the lot of the Christians of Ephesus, who have always been of the same mind with the apostles through the power of Jesus Christ."

Lightfoots translation does not include your above quote
"11:1 These are the last times. Henceforth let us
have reverence; let us fear the long-suffering of God,
lest it turn into a judgment against us. For either
let us fear the wrath which is to come or let us love
the grace which now is -- the one or the other;
provided only that we be found in Christ Jesus unto
true life.
11:2 Let nothing glitter in your eyes apart from
Him, in whom I carry about my bonds, my spiritual
pearls in which I would fain rise again through your
prayer, whereof may it be my lot to be always a
partaker, that I may be found in the company of those
Christians of Ephesus who moreover were ever of one
mind with the Apostles in the power of Jesus Christ."

From the long recension which does contain your quote:
"These things [I address to you], my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state; but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that ye attain to full assurance in regard to the birth, and passion, and resurrection which took place in the time of the government of Pontius Pilate, being truly and certainly accomplished by Jesus Christ, who is our hope, from which may no one of you ever be turned aside.

These things [I address to you], my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state; but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ, who was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards born of the Virgin Mary without any intercourse with man. He also lived a holy life, and healed every kind of sickness and disease among the people, and wrought signs and wonders for the benefit of men; and to those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He made known the one and only true God, His Father, and underwent the passion, and endured the cross at the hands of the Christ-killing Jews, under Pontius Pilate the governor and Herod the king. He also died, and rose again, and ascended into the heavens to Him that sent Him, and is sat down at His right hand, and shall come at the end of the world, with His Father's glory, to judge the living and the dead, and to render to every one according to his works. He who knows these things with a full assurance, and believes them, is happy; even as ye are now the lovers of God and of Christ, in the full assurance of our hope, from which may no one of us ever be turned aside!"

claninja · Mar 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Mathetes (author unknown, Mathetes simply means "a disciple”)
Greece
(A.D 90)

Chapter VII – The Manifestation of Christ

For He will yet send Him to judge us, and who shall endure His appearing?

The Shepherd of Hermas
Rome, Italy
(written in 88-99 AD)

Chapter III

The tower which you see building is myself, the Church, who have appeared to you now and on the former occasion.

Chapter III

The white part is the age that is to come, in which the elect of God will dwell, since those elected by God to eternal life will be spotless and pure.

Chapter V

For if the building be finished, there will not be more room for any one, but he will be rejected. This privilege, however, will belong only to him who has now been placed near the tower.”

Chapter VIII

When the tower is finished and built, then comes the end; and I assure you it will be soon finished.

Fourth Similitude (or Symbol)

"Those," he said, "which are budding are the righteous who are to live in the world to come; for the coming world is the summer of the righteous, but the winter of sinners. When, therefore, the mercy of the Lord shines forth, then shall they be made manifest who are the servants of God, and all men shall be made manifest ... the heathen and sinners, like the withered trees which you saw, will be found to be those who have been withered and unfruitful in that world, and shall be burnt as wood, and made manifest, because their actions were evil during their lives. For the sinners shall be consumed because they sinned and did not repent, and the heathen shall be burned because they knew not Him who created them.

Chapter IX

... Give heed to the judgment that is to come … for after the tower is finished, you will wish to do good, but will find no opportunity … their groans should ascend to the Lord, and ye be shut out with all your goods beyond the gate of the tower.

1 Clement
Bishop of Rome, Italy
(Died around 99 A.D.)

1 Clement 34

The good workman receiveth the bread of his work with boldness, but the slothful and careless dareth not look his employer in the face. It is therefore needful that we should be zealous unto well-doing, for of Him are all things: since He forewarneth us saying, Behold, the Lord, and His reward is before His face, to recompense each man according to his work.

1 Clement 57:2-7

Because I called and ye obeyed not, and I held out words and ye heeded not, but made My councils of none effect, and were disobedient unto My reproofs; therefore I also will laugh at your destruction, and will rejoice over you when ruin cometh upon you, and when confusion overtaketh you suddenly, and your overthrow is at hand like a whirlwind. Because I called and ye obeyed not, and I held out words and ye heeded not, but made My councils of none effect, and were disobedient unto My reproofs; therefore I also will laugh at your destruction, and will rejoice over you when ruin cometh upon you, and when confusion overtaketh you suddenly, and your overthrow is at hand like a whirlwind, or when ye call upon Me, yet will I not here you.

1 Clement 59:1-2

The Creator of the universe may guard intact unto the end the number that hath been numbered of His elect throughout the whole world.

Clement demonstrates that he believed that God’s people will obviously be on the earth and be protected right up until “the end.” The revelation of Christ seals the final deliverance of the elect and brings the curtain down on time. This is a classic Amillenialist belief, if “the end’ means “the end.”

2 Clement
Rome, Italy
(Early 2nd century)

2 Clement 5:5

And ye know, brethren, that the sojourn of this flesh in this world is mean and for a short time, but the promise of Christ is great and marvelous, even the rest of the kingdom that shall be and of life eternal.

2nd Clement 16:3

But ye know that the day of judgment cometh even now as a burning oven, and the powers of the heavens shall melt, and all the earth as lead melting on the fire, and then shall appear the secret and open works of men.

2 Clement 17:4

For the Lord said, I come to gather together all the nations, tribes, and languages. Herein He speaketh of the day of His appearing, when He shall come and redeem us, each man according to his works.

2 Clement 17:5

And the unbelievers shall see His glory and His might: and they shall be amazed when they see the kingdom of the world given to Jesus, saying, Woe unto us, for Thou wast, and we knew it not, and believed not; and we obeyed not the presbyters when they told us of our salvation. And Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be for a spectacle unto all flesh.

2 Clement 17:6

He speaketh of that day of judgment, when men shall see those among us that live ungodly lives and dealt falsely with the commandments of Jesus Christ.

2 Clement 17:7

But the righteous, done good and endured torments and hated pleasures of the soul, when they shall behold them that have done amiss and denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds, how that they are punished with grievous torments in unquenchable fire, shall give glory to God, saying, There will be hope for him that hath served God with his whole heart.

2 Clement 19:3

Let us therefore practice righteousness that we may be saved unto the end. Blessed are they that obey these ordinances. Though they may endure affliction for a short time in the world, they will gather the immortal fruit of the resurrection.

We can see how the writer anticipates the wrath of God falling at the Coming of the Lord. For those not rescued at the day of the Lord it will arrive “like a burning oven” whereupon “the earth will melt, like lead melting in fire.” This is total destruction. As 2 Peter 3 graphically depicts: this world will be dissolved when Jesus comes. In the eyes of Clement a general judgment ensues. He contends: “then will appear the hidden and manifest deeds of men.” This is the day when the secrets of all men are fully and finally manifested.

sovereigngrace said:
Barnabus
Alexandria, Egypt
(A.D. 70-120)

Chapter IV – Antichrist is at Hand: Let Us Therefore Avoid Jewish Errors

The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches, concerning which it is written, as Enoch says, For this end the Lord has cut short the times and the days, that His Beloved may hasten.

Chapter XV – The False and the True Sabbath.

When His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day … when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves.

Chapter XXI – Conclusion

For he who keepeth these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed with his works. On this account there will be a resurrection, on this account a retribution … For the day is at hand on which all things shall perish with the evil [one]. The Lord is near, and His reward … be ye taught of God, inquiring diligently what the Lord asks from you; and do it that ye maybe safe in the day of judgment.

The Ascension of Isaiah
Palestine
(late 1st century to early 2nd century)

Chapter 4

14. And after (one thousand) three hundred and thirty-two days the Lord will come with His angels and with the armies of the holy ones from the seventh heaven with the glory of the seventh heaven, and He will drag Beliar into Gehenna and also his armies.
15. And He will give rest of the godly whom He shall find in the body in this world, [and the sun will be ashamed]:
16. And to all who because of (their) faith in Him have execrated Beliar and his kings. But the saints will come with the Lord with their garments which are (now) stored up on high in the seventh heaven: with the Lord they will come, whose spirits are clothed, they will descend and be present in the world, and He will strengthen those, who have been found in the body, together with the saints, in the garments of the saints, and the Lord will minister to those who have kept watch in this world.
17. And afterwards they will turn themselves upward in their garments, and their body will be left in the world.
18. the voice of the Beloved will in wrath rebuke the things of heaven and the things of earth and the things of earth and the mountains and the hills and the cities and the desert and the forests and the angel of the sun and that of the moon, and all things wherein Beliar manifested himself and acted openly in this world, and there will be [a resurrection and] a judgment in their midst in those days, and the Beloved will cause fire to go forth from Him, and it will consume all the godless, and they will be as though they had not been created.

Conclusion

An elementary study of the early church fathers’ teachings over the first 100 years after the cross shows that they saw the second coming of Jesus Christ as “the end” or “the end of the world.” They believed all the righteous would be rescued to inherit a new perfected earth. The wicked would be destroyed with this current corrupt earth. This is standard Amillennial teaching! There is a notable silence from the early writers, apart from Papias. Nowhere does he quote any of the early church fathers (apart from Papias) mention, or describe conditions on a future millennial earth or articulate any of the main tenets of the Premillennial belief. All we have is complete silence.

While I appreciate you taking the time to post these quotes, none of them mention revelation 20 or comment on the millennium whether spiritual or literal.

sovereigngrace said:
Polycarp
Bishop in Smyrna, Turkey
(Born AD 68, martyred about AD 155)

The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
Chapter 2. An exhortation to virtue

Wherefore, girding up your loins, serve the Lord in fear and truth, as those who have forsaken the vain, empty talk and error of the multitude, and believed in Him who raised up our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, and gave Him glory, and a throne at His right hand. To Him all things in heaven and on earth are subject. Him every spirit serves. He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead. His blood will God require of those who do not believe in Him. But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness.

Martyrdom of Polycarp
11:1-2

The proconsul then said to him, ‘I have wild beasts at hand; to these will I cast thee, except thou repent.’ But he answered, ‘Call them then, for we are not accustomed to repent of what is good in order to adopt that which is evil; and it is well for me to be changed from what is evil to what is righteous’. But again the proconsul said to him, ‘I will cause thee to be consumed by fire, seeing thou despisest the wild beasts, if thou wilt not repent’. But Polycarp said, ‘Thou threatenest me with fire which burneth for an hour, and after a little is extinguished, but art ignorant of the fire of the coming judgment and of eternal punishment, reserved for the ungodly. But why tarriest thou? Bring forth what thou wilt’.”

I'm curious if "he comes as the judge" is present tense or a future tense verb.

Wherefore, girding up your loins, serve the Lord in fear and truth, as those who have forsaken the vain, empty talk and error of the multitude, and believed in Him who raised up our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, and gave Him glory, and a throne at His right hand. To Him all things in heaven and on earth are subject. Him every spirit serves. He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead. His blood will God require of those who do not believe in Him. But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness.

claninja · Mar 26, 2020

Andrewn said:
Yes, this is my understanding. Other Amil's here may correct me.

Thank you for clarifying. Although I would disagree.

Eusebius Church History Book III chapter 7, concludes that the time of the gentiles was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem. I concur with Eusebius:

" It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events.

2. His words are as follows: Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

3. The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword, and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain. But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt, while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.

4. These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which he uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said:

5. If you had known, even you, in this day, the things which belong unto your peace! But now they are hid from your eyes. For the days shall come upon you, that your enemies shall cast a rampart about you, and compass you round, and keep you in on every side, and shall lay you and your children even with the ground.

6. And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says, For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And again: When you shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is near.

7. If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvellously strange.

8. Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour's passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst, it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian."

Thus because scripture states "this generation will not pass away until all these things occur" and this comes after the times of the gentiles being fulfilled, I hold that it was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem.

sovereigngrace · Mar 26, 2020

claninja said:
Thanks for taking the time to post these SG

While the Didache seems to mention a little from the olivet discourse in the quote"gather it together from the 4 winds......for thy kingdom". This doesn't mention anything about revelation 20 or the millennium, which I was hoping you would produce. Thus I am still unsure on the didaches position of the millennium.

Using this same argument style, I could say that because the temple destruction isn't mentioned didache, it must have been written prior to the temple destruction and therefore supports preterism. I know that wouldn't be a good enough argument for you, so you'll have to understand that the non mention of the millennium does not help me understand this author's position on it, whether literal or spiritual.

While I agree, it is possible that the grandsons of Jude believed the millennium as spiritual, This is a 2nd or 3rd or 4th hand account from a couple hundred years later. It also doesn't tell us what the grandsons of Jude believed specifically about the millennium or revelation 20.

This one is interesting because the text you quoted is from the "long recension" which is believed to be a product of a 4th century arian Christian who added to the text in order to use Ignatius as a theological witness. The middle, and not the long version, is believe to the be true one.

(source: Ignatius of Antioch - Wikipedia)

CH Hooles translation does not contain your above quote:
" The last times are come upon us. Let us therefore be of a reverent spirit, and fear the long-suffering of God, that it tend not to our condemnation. For let us either stand in awe of the wrath to come, or show regard for the grace which is at present displayed--one of two things. Only[in one way or another] let us be found in Christ Jesus unto the true life. Apart from Him, let nothing attract you, for whom I bear about these bonds, these spiritual jewels, by which may I arise through your prayers, of which I entreat I may always be a partaker, that I may be found in the lot of the Christians of Ephesus, who have always been of the same mind with the apostles through the power of Jesus Christ."

Lightfoots translation does not include your above quote
"11:1 These are the last times. Henceforth let us
have reverence; let us fear the long-suffering of God,
lest it turn into a judgment against us. For either
let us fear the wrath which is to come or let us love
the grace which now is -- the one or the other;
provided only that we be found in Christ Jesus unto
true life.
11:2 Let nothing glitter in your eyes apart from
Him, in whom I carry about my bonds, my spiritual
pearls in which I would fain rise again through your
prayer, whereof may it be my lot to be always a
partaker, that I may be found in the company of those
Christians of Ephesus who moreover were ever of one
mind with the Apostles in the power of Jesus Christ."

From the long recension which does contain your quote:
"These things [I address to you], my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state; but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that ye attain to full assurance in regard to the birth, and passion, and resurrection which took place in the time of the government of Pontius Pilate, being truly and certainly accomplished by Jesus Christ, who is our hope, from which may no one of you ever be turned aside.

These things [I address to you], my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state; but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ, who was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards born of the Virgin Mary without any intercourse with man. He also lived a holy life, and healed every kind of sickness and disease among the people, and wrought signs and wonders for the benefit of men; and to those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He made known the one and only true God, His Father, and underwent the passion, and endured the cross at the hands of the Christ-killing Jews, under Pontius Pilate the governor and Herod the king. He also died, and rose again, and ascended into the heavens to Him that sent Him, and is sat down at His right hand, and shall come at the end of the world, with His Father's glory, to judge the living and the dead, and to render to every one according to his works. He who knows these things with a full assurance, and believes them, is happy; even as ye are now the lovers of God and of Christ, in the full assurance of our hope, from which may no one of us ever be turned aside!"

There is complete silence on a millennial existence in the first 100 years after the cross apart from Papias. Remember, Revelation was a later manuscript that was not believed to have gained wide influence outside of Asia Minor for quite a while. So, the absence of these early writers exegeting it is not strange.

Have a look at the early Chiliasts. Look were they lived or ministerd.

Asia Minor

Papias
Hierapolis, Turkey
(A.D. 98-117

Justin Martyr
Asia Minor
(AD 100-166)

Irenaeus
Bishop of Lyons, Gaul, (now France)
(AD 150)

Aviricius Marcellus
Bishop of Hieropolis, Lesser Phrygia, Asia Minor
(flourished 163AD)

Methodius
Bishop of Olympus, Asia Minor
(died 311 A.D).

Please note though, Smyrna was the home of Irenaeus but he was sent as a missionary from Asia Minor all the way to Gaul, Southern France, the area around Lyon in what we now call France.

The burden of proof is on the Premil to show that they taught it. Much of what exists aligns with a climactic coming of Christ and no future millennium.

sovereigngrace · Mar 26, 2020

claninja said:
While I appreciate you taking the time to post these quotes, none of them mention revelation 20 or comment on the millennium whether spiritual or literal.

I'm curious if "he comes as the judge" is present tense or a future tense verb.

Wherefore, girding up your loins, serve the Lord in fear and truth, as those who have forsaken the vain, empty talk and error of the multitude, and believed in Him who raised up our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, and gave Him glory, and a throne at His right hand. To Him all things in heaven and on earth are subject. Him every spirit serves. He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead. His blood will God require of those who do not believe in Him. But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness.

What occurs at the second coming is not dependent upon Rev 20. That is the same mistake that premillennialists make. The fact is that the early fathers viewed the second coming as the end. You can struggle with that all you want, and try and apply it to AD70, but it does not change the fact that they looked for a future hope of Christ second coming. Also, the resurrection of the dead and the catching away of the saints that are living also occurs at his climatic coming.

keras · Mar 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Also, the resurrection of the dead and the catching away of the saints that are living also occurs at his climatic coming.

Well; you and the ECF's are wrong, as Rev 20 does not say there will be a general resurrection of the dead; only the Trib martyrs and the 'saints', those faithful people still alive when Jesus Returns, will be transported to where He is. That is; to Jerusalem.

sovereigngrace · Mar 26, 2020

keras said:
Well; you and the ECF's are wrong, as Rev 20 does not say there will be a general resurrection of the dead; only the Trib martyrs and the 'saints', those faithful people still alive when Jesus Returns, will be transported to where He is. That is; to Jerusalem.

Your problem is that you're focused on the wrong Jerusalem. The New Testament focus is heavenly Jerusalem not Christ-rejecting earthly Jerusalem. Can I remind you? We have moved in the New Testament from the temporal earthly visible realm to eternal heavenly invisible realm.

keras · Mar 27, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Your problem is that you're focused on the wrong Jerusalem. The New Testament focus is heavenly Jerusalem not Christ-rejecting earthly Jerusalem. Can I remind you? We have moved in the New Testament from the temporal earthly visible realm to eternal heavenly invisible realm.

Can I ask you to open your eyes and see that we actually live on earth.
In the Christian era, we are the spiritual Temple, but we remain earthbound and nowhere does the Bible say we go to live anywhere else.

Even after the final washup and all is finished; it will be God who comes to us on earth. Revelation 21:3

claninja · Mar 27, 2020

keras said:
586 BC is the known date of the Babylonian Conquest of Judah. A historical fact.

From the Bible or the writings of man? You stated you didn't use the writings of man, so where does the Bible mention the date 586?

keras said:
BTW; I view the whole study of what the ECF's wrote as a diversion from the real issues. People just cannot tout them as proofs for their pet theories.
The idea that there is no Millennium to come, is a direct contradiction of Revelation 20.

In that post you predicted Christ to return in 2033ad. Since you have made predictions before that have failed, I won't hold my breath with your "corrected" prediction nor your supposed "timeline".

If you take the apocalyptic vision of the millennium as literal, do you also believe literal fish will be separated at the end of the age? Do believe those who must be born again literally must go through their mother's womb a second time?

Andrewn · Mar 27, 2020

claninja said:
Thus because scripture states "this generation will not pass away until all these things occur" and this comes after the times of the gentiles being fulfilled, I hold that it was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem.

You pasted a long quotation from Eusebius that didn't mention "the times of the gentiles" and then added your conclusion at the end, which is not related to what Eusebius wrote. You've done this before with an abundance of Biblical quotations that are unrelated to your conclusions.

It seems like your posts are addressed to someone with Premil views. But I'm not. My views are already Amil and I already accept Eusebius' interpretation that most of the OD has taken place in 70 AD. He didn't mention "the times of the gentiles," did he?

claninja · Mar 27, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
There is complete silence on a millennial existence in the first 100 years after the cross apart from Papias.

So then not complete silence.

sovereigngrace said:
Remember, Revelation was a later manuscript that was not believed to have gained wide influence outside of Asia Minor for quite a while. So, the absence of these early writers exegeting it is not strange.

Have a look at the early Chiliasts. Look were they lived or ministerd.

Asia Minor

Papias
Hierapolis, Turkey
(A.D. 98-117

Justin Martyr
Asia Minor
(AD 100-166)

Irenaeus
Bishop of Lyons, Gaul, (now France)
(AD 150)

Aviricius Marcellus
Bishop of Hieropolis, Lesser Phrygia, Asia Minor
(flourished 163AD)

Methodius
Bishop of Olympus, Asia Minor
(died 311 A.D).

Please note though, Smyrna was the home of Irenaeus but he was sent as a missionary from Asia Minor all the way to Gaul, Southern France, the area around Lyon in what we now call France.

I think this is a great observation. While this is not conclusive proof that no one outside of that area knew of Revelation, it definitely lends support that the study of revelation during the early church history might have mainly been in the asia minor and surrounding areas.

sovereigngrace said:
The burden of proof is on the Premil to show that they taught it. Much of what exists aligns with a climactic coming of Christ and no future millennium.

I agree. Much does, but not all.

A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

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