A Baha'i's view of atonement

[bling]

God has more ways of expressing His love than the one way you believe in. That's my whole point.

Everything God does for willing individuals is motivated by God's Love.

 

[bling]

The Baha'i Faith states it this way:

"Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee."

Elsewhere in the Baha'i writings it is made clear that God's love is always present like sunlight, but some people have placed themselves behind a barrier that blocks some of most of the light.

Then there is a huge difference between Baha’I and Christianity. God Loves us first before man can Love. God’s Love is not contingent on man Loving God back, but is contingent on man just accepting God’s Love. A human soldier of satan fighting God’s at every turn, needs only to wimp out, give up, surrender to God even if the soldier still perceives God as his enemy, but by just surrendering the soldier allows God to shower him with gifts.

 

[bling]

The earliest Christian theology WRT the atonement (as communicated by the earliest church fathers) was "Christus Victor", wasn't it?

Under these auspices, Christ's death on the cross was not a legal loophole used to satisfy God's demand for blood as recompense, but a resounding victory over the forces of evil that held mankind in bondage.

The penance systems of Satisfaction Theory and Penal Substitution place an undue emphasis on man's obligation to offer payment to God and on God's obligation to Law. Instead by suffering a death that, before the Law, meant an accursed status, Christ, instead of satisfying an obligation, overthrew the power of the Law, since its condemnation of a perfect man was unjust. Furthermore, Death, Sin, and the Devil, (personalized forces in Christus Victor), are overthrown since Jesus' subsequent Resurrection breaks the dominion they once held over human life. Since the Resurrection is a mark of the Father's favor despite the Law's curse on crucified men, the Atonement, far from reinforcing the Law, deprives and subverts the Law of its ability to condemn. Thus God the Father and God the Son are not set at odds by the Cross with the first in the role of Judge and the second in the role of Sinner, but are united in seeking the downfall of the Devil's system of sin, death, and Law that enslaves humanity.
Unlike the Satisfaction Doctrine view of the Atonement (the “Latin” view) which is rooted in the idea of Christ paying the penalty of sin to satisfy the demands of justice, the “classic” view of the Early church (Christus Victor) is rooted in the Incarnation and how Christ entered into human misery and wickedness and thus redeemed it.

Christus Victor falls back on the Ransom Theory of atonement to explain what happened with Jesus going to the cross.

 

[LoAmmi]

Then there is a huge difference between Baha’I and Christianity. God Loves us first before man can Love. God’s Love is not contingent on man Loving God back, but is contingent on man just accepting God’s Love. A human soldier of satan fighting God’s at every turn, needs only to wimp out, give up, surrender to God even if the soldier still perceives God as his enemy, but by just surrendering the soldier allows God to shower him with gifts.

This seems to be based upon the idea that everybody who isn't a Christian is at war with G-d. I'm not. I'm open to whatever He wants for me. But that openness has always brought me back to Judaism and not to Jesus.

 

[smaneck]

Then there is a huge difference between Baha’I and Christianity. God Loves us first before man can Love.

It doesn't say God's love isn't there first, it says that love can't reach us, i.e. it doesn't effect us unless we love God.

God’s Love is not contingent on man Loving God back, but is contingent on man just accepting God’s Love.

Anyone who accepts God's love already loves Him.

A human soldier of satan fighting God’s at every turn, needs only to wimp out, give up, surrender to God even if the soldier still perceives God as his enemy, but by just surrendering the soldier allows God to shower him with gifts.

That sounds more like Islam.

In any case, the real difference between Christianity and the Baha'i Faith lies in the fact we don't have a satan.

 

[light upon light]

This seems to be based upon the idea that everybody who isn't a Christian is at war with G-d. I'm not. I'm open to whatever He wants for me. But that openness has always brought me back to Judaism and not to Jesus.

This is the thing.

We have two choices.

One, we can realize that this is a wonderful thing, that LoAmmi has found his path and relationship with God, and genuinely celebrate it and see him as in the fold.

Or:

Two, we see our way as the only way, or the best way for everyone, that LoAmmi is lost or damned or "stuck in a dead religion" etc.

I really don't think God cares about our religion, only our heart and our love for Truth and for others, and our actions.

 

[light upon light]

Uneducated children do not perceive the huge danger with playing in the street so the “discipline” needs to be severe enough to let them realize the significance.

Like burning in literal hellfire for all eternity?

 

[dlamberth]

I really don't think God cares about our religion, only our heart and our love for Truth and for others, and our actions.

This!!!

.

 

[smaneck]

I really don't think God cares about our religion, only our heart and our love for Truth and for others, and our actions.

But, but, but . . . You mean when we die God isn't going to ask which club we belonged to?

 

[smaneck]

Everything God does for willing individuals is motivated by God's Love.

Everything that God does for anyone is motivated by His love.

 

[gord44]

This is the thing.

We have two choices.

One, we can realize that this is a wonderful thing, that LoAmmi has found his path and relationship with God, and genuinely celebrate it and see him as in the fold.

Or:

Two, we see our way as the only way, or the best way for everyone, that LoAmmi is lost or damned or "stuck in a dead religion" etc.

I really don't think God cares about our religion, only our heart and our love for Truth and for others, and our actions.

good post.

 

[dlamberth]

Everything God does for willing individuals is motivated by God's Love.

That's way, WAY too exclusive. God is not exclusive!!

Everything God does, regardless of what He does, is done by Love. All of humanity is covered by God's Love, with out exception.

.

 

[light upon light]

In any case, the real difference between Christianity and the Baha'i Faith lies in the fact we don't have a satan.

I disagree. We still have a satan, same as always, just as we still have hell and heaven. It's just that we now know that satan is our own self-centered willfulness, which over time with enough turning away from the light can warp into actual deliberate hate, destruction and acts of outrageous evil.

There can be no doubt that men like Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold and many others were in the thralls of the satanic spirit of twisted and warped self will. We can see lesser manifestations of this in ourselves whenever we treat another unjustly and turn away from the truth of our misdeed.

 

[LoAmmi]

I disagree. We still have a satan, same as always, just as we still have hell and heaven. It's just that we now know that satan is our own self-centered willfulness, which over time with enough turning away from the light can warp into actual deliberate hate, destruction and acts of outrageous evil.

Which basically means you have the same understanding Jews have, with the possible exception of HaSatan being an actual angel of HaShem who does what he's told to do depending on tradition.

 

[Rationalt]

Newsflash: Jesus didn't speak Greek.

..

Is that some kind of special bahai inspiration.How do know that ?.

And then the special logic (Of bahai variety)

Only Luke represents Jesus as using the term "hades" and then only in one place. Luke was not a Jew and probably not familiar with the word Gehenna.

Now, if you are done with your time wasting bahai bs here is hades in matthew:


Matthew 11:23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades.

Heaven as opposed to hell(hades)

Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell-Hades shall not prevail against it.


Gates of hell(Hades) Not a pit .

 

[smaneck]

but there is also the need for the parent to be perceived by all his/her children as consistent, just and fair.

Children do better when they know what to expect, but they do not need to be treated equally. When I was a child my parents took in two foster kids, older than I. If they got C's on their report cards my parents praised them. Do you think the praised me when I got a "C"? Not hardly! They also got bigger allowances than I did because that is what my parents believed was appropriate to their age. My concept of justice and fairness was based on my parent's action not some predetermined ideal of equality. We were not equal and they didn't treat us that way.

Uneducated children do not perceive the huge danger with playing in the street so the “discipline” needs to be severe enough to let them realize the significance.

When someone has truly repented it means they *already* acknowledge the significance of what they have done. We punish a child when we perceive that they probably can't, and our artificial consequences are far preferable to them experiencing the real and natural consequences.

 

[smaneck]

Is that some kind of special bahai inspiration.How do know that ?.

Jesus was a simple carpenter, not an educated man. Aramaic, not Greek would have been the lingua franca where he lived.

Now, if you are done with your time wasting bahai bs here is hades in matthew:

Congratulations you found a couple of references to hades as opposed to the numerous ones I found for Gehenna which you had denied.

When Matthew's gospel refers to hades it is alluding to Old Testament verses regarding sheol. Sheol got translated as hades in the Septuagint. It is a reference to the grave, not a place of burning torment. Jesus is saying death will not prevail against the church.

 

[light upon light]

Which basically means you have the same understanding Jews have, with the possible exception of HaSatan being an actual angel of HaShem who does what he's told to do depending on tradition.

I think the Jewish people maintained a more balanced form of spirituality than many / most Christians and Muslim converts did.

God has worked with the Jewish people for thousands of years in a very close and direct relationship, it is understandable that their grasp of the subtleties of faith might be better than tribes and peoples much newer to monotheism.

 

[LoAmmi]

I think the Jewish people maintained a more balanced form of spirituality than many / most Christians and Muslim converts did.

God has worked with the Jewish people for thousands of years in a very close and direct relationship, it is understandable that their grasp of the subtleties of faith might be better than tribes and peoples much newer to monotheism.

How does this compare to your beliefs?

Judaism 101: Human Nature

 

[Rationalt]

The question is if God Love us and we reject that Love as it was given (as pure charity) did Love between God and us take place?

Apparently you think people not accepting biblical love are rejecting God's love in total .