A Baha'i's view of atonement

Mar 21, 2013
1,454
148
✟10,605.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Hell for unbelievers in bahai faith:

The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them. His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it. And when they behold the face of the All-Merciful, their own faces are saddened, while they are disporting themselves. They hasten forward to Hell Fire, ..

their corrupt inclinations and desires. These shall return to their abode in the fire of hell: wretched is the abode of the deniers!

Say: Is there any doubt concerning God? Behold how He hath come down from the heaven of His grace, girded with power and invested with sovereignty. Is there any doubt concerning His signs? Open ye your eyes, and consider His clear evidence. Paradise is on your right hand, and hath been brought nigh unto you, while Hell hath been made to blaze. Witness its devouring flame. Haste ye to enter into ...

Hell is explained as wholly symbolic.

"Where is Paradise, and where is Hell? The one is reunion with Me, the other thine own self..." - Baha'u'llah

There is no physical hell. Hellfire simply refers to the condition of self-centeredness and a lack of love.

Heaven and hell are not only conditions after the death of the body. They also refer to our spiritual conditions while still here on the earth.

When I feel love and compassion and acceptance for others and I see them as my brothers and sisters, I am at peace, I feel joyful. When I judge others, tear them down, view myself as better than them, I feel separation. I am deprived of the. I feel the fire of anger and desire for revenge. Those are the flames of hell fire.

These explanations are very clearly elucidated in the writings of Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.
 
Upvote 0

Rationalt

Newbie
Oct 18, 2009
3,015
100
✟3,858.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Married
Most of Baha'u'llah's writings are letters written to individuals. ..."

That is the first quote.The views expressed were not limited to the King(s) in question.

You cannot escape quoting context .The characterisation of unbelievers was not restricted to some individuals.
 
Upvote 0

smaneck

Baha'i
Sep 29, 2010
21,182
2,948
Jackson, MS
✟55,644.00
Faith
Baha'i
Marital Status
Single
First off, it isn't 'a mash of all those' other scriptures. The Baha'i Writings like any scripture speak to a specific context. Baha'u'llah's statement regarding those who disbelieve in God was in reference to some of the ministers of the state in the Ottoman Empire during Tanzimat period. The 'atheist' in this case were neither truthful or trustworthy because they were pretending to be Muslims.

The bahais of this forum, it appears, are giving some incorrect(if not downright deceitful) ideas about bahaiullah(or bahai faith).

Being a mash of all those scriptures the bahai faith holds almost same views on unbelief:

quote:

Know thou for a certainty that whoso disbelieveth in God is neither trustworthy nor truthful. This, indeed, is the truth, the undoubted truth. He that acteth treacherously towards God will, also, act 233 treacherously towards his king. Nothing whatever can deter such a man from evil, nothing can hinder him from betraying his neighbor, nothing can induce him to walk uprightly.
 
Upvote 0

smaneck

Baha'i
Sep 29, 2010
21,182
2,948
Jackson, MS
✟55,644.00
Faith
Baha'i
Marital Status
Single
You apparently missed the point. Baha'u'llah is indicating that Paradise and Hell are present here on earth with His advent.

The dastardly quranic verses regarding unbelievers were adopted by bahaiuallah:

Hell for unbelievers in bahai faith:

Baha'i Reference Library: Search Results[]=en-GWB

The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them. His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it. And when they behold the face of the All-Merciful, their own faces are saddened, while they are disporting themselves. They hasten forward to Hell Fire, ..

their corrupt inclinations and desires. These shall return to their abode in the fire of hell: wretched is the abode of the deniers!

Say: Is there any doubt concerning God? Behold how He hath come down from the heaven of His grace, girded with power and invested with sovereignty. Is there any doubt concerning His signs? Open ye your eyes, and consider His clear evidence. Paradise is on your right hand, and hath been brought nigh unto you, while Hell hath been made to blaze. Witness its devouring flame. Haste ye to enter into ...
 
Upvote 0
Mar 21, 2013
1,454
148
✟10,605.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
That is the first quote.The views expressed were not limited to the King(s) in question.

You cannot escape quoting context .The characterisation of unbelievers was not restricted to some individuals.

He was referring to atheist hypocrites seeking employment in a theocracy, and concealing their beliefs from the masses (although presumably known to Aziz what their true beliefs were). He was telling Aziz not to employ men like that, because they cannot be trusted (obviously!) I think that is relevant context.

Abdu'l-Baha explained that the God that most people worship is a product of the imagination, and why that is. Clearly, a very sympathetic statement for atheists who notice the same thing.
 
Upvote 0
Mar 21, 2013
1,454
148
✟10,605.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
But isn't God omnipotent? He certainly can make His love reaches all crevices of the Earth.

I think God wants lovers, not slaves:

"O SON OF THE WONDROUS VISION! I have breathed within thee a breath of My own Spirit, that thou mayest be My lover. Why hast thou forsaken Me and sought a beloved other than Me?"

If God forces us to choose the Greatest Reality instead of a small self-centeredness, it's rape not love.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

gord44

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2004
4,351
657
✟27,104.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How about people who have doubts, that join the ministry in the hopes of strengthening their faith, but find that it weakens it instead? It kinda traps them.

I don't think that would work. Religious leaders usually are those that have a very strong faith as they get the tough questions from their followers. I tried what you said though. I applied for Bible college to enter the ministry and before I went I asked myself some tough questions. I left the faith shortly after.
 
Upvote 0

Rationalt

Newbie
Oct 18, 2009
3,015
100
✟3,858.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Married
Hell for unbelievers in bahai faith:



Hell is explained as wholly symbolic.

"Where is Paradise, and where is Hell? The one is reunion with Me, the other thine own self..." - Baha'u'llah

There is no physical hell. Hellfire simply refers to the condition of self-centeredness and a lack of love.

Heaven and hell are not only conditions after the death of the body. They also refer to our spiritual conditions while still here on the earth.

When I feel love and compassion and acceptance for others and I see them as my brothers and sisters, I am at peace, I feel joyful. When I judge others, tear them down, view myself as better than them, I feel separation. I am deprived of the. I feel the fire of anger and desire for revenge. Those are the flames of hell fire.

These explanations are very clearly elucidated in the writings of Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.


Symbolic ?. faces getting blackened, falling in to hell fire doesn't sound symbolic.


Some more :Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 40-43

We see them rushing on towards their idol. Say: None shall be secure this Day from the decree of God. This indeed is a grievous
Day
. We point out to them those that led them astray. They see them, and yet recognize them not. Their eyes are drunken; they are indeed a blind people. Their proofs are the calumnies they uttered; condemned are their calumnies by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. The Evil One hath stirred up mischief in their hearts, and they are afflicted with a torment that none can avert. They hasten to the wicked, bearing the register of the workers of iniquity. Such are their doings.
Say: The heavens have been folded together, and the earth is held within His grasp, and the corrupt doers have been held by their forelock, and still they understand not. They drink of the tainted water, and know it not. Say: The shout hath been raised, and the people have come forth from their graves, and arising, are gazing around them. Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy, others 42 have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment.



Nothing symbolic there. faces falling down in fire. faces getting blackened.

All this @#$ was already there in quran in much more graphic detail.
 
Upvote 0

Rationalt

Newbie
Oct 18, 2009
3,015
100
✟3,858.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Married
Talking about Quran here is what bahaiuallh said (In the context of hell)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 98-99

PERUSED ye not the Qur’án? Read it, that haply ye may find the Truth, for this Book is verily the Straight Path.

Let us see what the Quran says about hell:


an-Nisa` 4:56

Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.

feeding boiling liquids to burn your insides ,Intestines coming out, Faces covered in fire, lips burnt off.

check for more at Jahannam - WikiIslam
 
Upvote 0
Mar 21, 2013
1,454
148
✟10,605.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Here is Abdu'l-Baha explaining why so many are atheists today:

"Baha'u'llah declared that religion is in complete harmony with science and reason. If religious belief and doctrine is at variance with reason, it proceeds from the limited mind of man and not from God; therefore, it is unworthy of belief and not deserving of attention; the heart finds no rest in it, and real faith is impossible. How can man believe that which he knows to be opposed to reason? Is this possible? Can the heart accept that which reason denies?"

and

"Furthermore, He [Baha'u'llah] proclaims that religion must be in harmony with science and reason. If it does not conform to science and reconcile with reason, it is superstition. Down to the present day it has been customary for man to accept a religious teaching, even though it was not in accord with human reason and judgment. "

That is a very sympathetic view towards people who disbelieve in nonsense, I think...
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

smaneck

Baha'i
Sep 29, 2010
21,182
2,948
Jackson, MS
✟55,644.00
Faith
Baha'i
Marital Status
Single
How about people who have doubts, that join the ministry in the hopes of strengthening their faith, but find that it weakens it instead? It kinda traps them.

We aren't interested in judging people for their doubts, etc. Baha'u'llah was speaking of certain Tanzimat reformers who were deliberately concealing their disbelief to further their hidden agendas.

I'd have to double check the Persian but if the word for disbelievers was some form of kafir, this literally means an ingrate, not a doubter.
 
Upvote 0
Mar 21, 2013
1,454
148
✟10,605.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
RationalT,

With the The Bible and the Quran, many of the teachings were symbolic. The followers took them literally. Even though Christ tried to explain the symbolism - such as with sayings like "let the dead bury their dead" and "the Son of Man which is in Heaven" (while He was still alive!) and about the symbolic return of Elijah as John the Baptist. And yet still most Christians expect to see Jesus of Nazareth floating down out of the sky!

In the Baha'i Revelation, many of the writings are STILL symbolic, but often clearly stated as such. Other times they are clearly stated as being literal.

That is the position of the Baha'i Faith, from front to back, top to bottom. End of story.

There is a whole book by Baha'u'llah explaining this, it is called the Kitab-i-Iqan (book of certitude):

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán
 
Upvote 0

smaneck

Baha'i
Sep 29, 2010
21,182
2,948
Jackson, MS
✟55,644.00
Faith
Baha'i
Marital Status
Single
Nothing symbolic there. faces falling down in fire. faces getting blackened.

Use your head. Everything is written in the present, not the future tense. Baha'u'llah is describing their current condition, not what will happen to them when they die. So yeah, it is symbolic. Nobody literally fell into a fire.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums