A Baha'i's view of atonement

[PsychoSarah]

Why does god need our worship exactly? What is his deal that we have to believe that he exists for him the be happy?

 

[bling]

Well, if you followed my argument I would say that the ransom is paid *to* us as well as for us. God doesn't need a ransom.

I fully agree, so what help, benefit or value does the cruel torture, humiliation and murder of Christ have for you?

How does it help you to fulfill your earthly objective?

I would like to hear your answers to all my questions in my previous post?

 

[smaneck]

Why does god need our worship exactly? What is his deal that we have to believe that he exists for him the be happy?

I wouldn't say He does, but worship is one of the ways we draw near to God and we need Him.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Then why does he punish people for not believing?

 

[smaneck]

I fully agree, so what help, benefit or value does the cruel torture, humiliation and murder of Christ have for you?

How does it help you to fulfill your earthly objective?

I would like to hear your answers to all my questions in my previous post?

I didn't address those other questions because you based them on premises I wasn't sure I accepted. But I'll go back and look at them again.

 

[bling]

Why does god need our worship exactly? What is his deal that we have to believe that he exists for him the be happy?

God does not “need” anything.

Our overwhelming gratitude compels us to worship God.

If we are not being motivated by Godly type Love, whatever we do is totally worthless. (1 Cor. 13: 1-4).

 

[LoAmmi]

Then why does he punish people for not believing?

Not every faith believes that He does. Mine doesn't believe that, for example. I'll let the Baha'i speak for themselves.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Fair enough.

 

[bling]

I didn't address those other questions because you based them on premises I wasn't sure I accepted. But I'll go back and look at them again.

Most of the time they are just philosophical logical responces (retorical responces) and not based on any assumptions, but if you feel they require some agreed upon "believe" prior to answering I would like to know that also?

 

[LoAmmi]

If we are not being motivated by Godly type Love, whatever we do is totally worthless. (1 Cor. 13: 1-4).

What if someone is incapable of that "type" of love, whatever it is? Are all of their actions worthless?

 

[smaneck]

Why would it be helpful/beneficial/of value to the repent child to be Lovingly disciplined by a wonderful Father?

If disciplining is done correctly by the Loving Parent and humbly accepted correctly by the child, will the relationship be as strong and even stronger between the parent and the child than it was prior to the child’s rebellious disobedience?


As a Loving wonderful parent God would not have any difficulty in forgiving His repentant rebellious disobedient children, but does a Loving parent also have the responsibility to seeing to the disciplining of his/her children if at all possible?

I don't follow you here. If a child has truly repented of their wrong doing, I frankly don't see the need for discipline in the sense of punishment. The purpose of discipline is to cause repentance. In the case where they already feel bad about what they have done punishment would only serve to assuage their guilt, perhaps not a good idea if you don't want the behavior repeated.
Since the rest of your post appears based on what I consider a false premise, I'm not sure it would make sense to address it.

 

[LoAmmi]

I don't follow you hear. If a child has truly repented of their wrong doing, I frankly don't see the need for discipline in the sense of punishment. The purpose of discipline is to cause repentance. In the case where they already feel bad about what they have done punishment would only serve to assuage their guilt, perhaps not a good idea if you don't want the behavior repeated..

I guess it depends on if you think some things require different actions. For example, let's say a child used the Internet to access material that they should not access. Even if they repent of their wrong doing, their Internet access might still be restricted.

Maybe that has more to do with trust than discipline. The child would need to build back up the trust the parent can give them before being restored back to their previous status with regard to Internet access.

 

[smaneck]

I guess it depends on if you think some things require different actions. For example, let's say a child used the Internet to access material that they should not access. Even if they repent of their wrong doing, their Internet access might still be restricted.

Maybe that has more to do with trust than discipline. The child would need to build back up the trust the parent can give them before being restored back to their previous status with regard to Internet access.

Sure, but this is mostly because parents are unsure how real that repentance is. Are they sorry they did this and won't do it again, or are they sorry they got caught and might do it if they think they can get away with it?

God doesn't have to worry about the sincerity of our repentance. He knows whether it is real or not.

 

[bling]

Then why does he punish people for not believing?

God disciplines His children in this world, which are willing through faith to accept, His discipline?

God does “punish” those that refuse to the point of never accepting His discipline in this world, not for their sake or His sake, but to help other willing individuals.

If you are never ever going to accept God’s Love/Charity (fulfilling your earthly objective) you take on a lesser “purpose” of helping those that are still willing to accept God’s help to accept God’s help sooner than later.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Or, just maybe, god isn't so loving and kind.

 

[dlamberth]

Why does god need our worship exactly?

He doesn't. What we need to do is to just be thankful.

.

 

[dlamberth]

Then why does he punish people for not believing?

He doesn't do that. That's an old belief that needs to be thrown away and discarded.

.

 

[bling]

I don't follow you here. If a child has truly repented of their wrong doing, I frankly don't see the need for discipline in the sense of punishment. The purpose of discipline is to cause repentance. In the case where they already feel bad about what they have done punishment would only serve to assuage their guilt, perhaps not a good idea if you don't want the behavior repeated.
Since the rest of your post appears based on what I consider a false premise, I'm not sure it would make sense to address it.

This has to do with (Parenting 101):

The Bible teaches us and we can learn from our own experience disciplining helps in the following ways:

1. Discipline is seen as a deterrent not only for the person that transgressed, but also for the other children that might consider doing the same transgression in the future.

2. The Bible tells us: we know we are children of our father because the father does discipline us if at all possible. As you know parents that do not see to the disciplining of their own children are described as delinquent parents (unconcerned with the behavior of their children). You are not “alone” in your concern about your personal behavior, but God is extremely concerned with teaching you (these are teachable moments).

3. The way most offences are “measured” is by the amount of discipline (or punishment) that will follow. If there is “no” discipline associated with the offence, how do you know which is the greater offence? The fines or prison time you pay for a civil offence tells you the significance of the offence. Sin that causes Christ to go to the cross is huge deserving of the worst possible thing that could happen to you while here on earth (the empathy you feel for Christ going to the cross because of your sins).

4. There is also the relieve that comes with: “doing the time for the crime”. It helps to put it behind you and move on. If you are not “disciplined” for your transgressions you continue to have the feeling of missing something. How do you ever put the offence behind you and move on?

5. Most children do not just want to be “forgiven” and just accept that forgiveness and move on. These are very teachable moments in the parenting process, which should not just be skipped over.

6. God is also “just/fair”, so everyone (all God’s children) will be treated “equally”. We know those that refuse to be disciplined in this world (believe in what Christ because of them and for them) will go to hell (annihilation) after death for doing most of the same things children that do not go to hell did. That does not mean children that accept God’s disciplining have to go through the exact same experience as those that refuse God’s disciplining (the same is true in earthly parenting where the discipline is not the same as paying back in full for the crime committed). Those that refuse God’s disciplining have that added (which is huge) offence over those that did humbly accept. Discipline is less severe than punishment (paying for the crime), but it is “just/fair” in that it is available to all. To just let the child off with only forgiveness would not be fair/just toward those that will be punished.

 

[bling]

Or, just maybe, god isn't so loving and kind.

God is Love, but loving does not take place for those that do not accept God's Love (it is a two way transaction).

 

[WoodrowX2]

He doesn't do that. That's an old belief that needs to be thrown away and discarded.

.

I look at it as being similar to trying to go from North Dakota to Hawaii. If I don't at least go to the airport I am going to stay in North Dakota. I am not being punished by being denied a trip to Hawaii, I have made the choice not to take the first steps to get there.