9Marks and Christian Perfection.

[CCHIPSS]

My friend recently was introduced a book by the pastor. The book is called 9 Marks of a Healthy Church. I had been doing some research on this book and the 9Marks church, and it is pretty alarming.

The most controversial items are Membership and Discipline.

Membership: Members must sign a legal contract with the church, stating that they agree to all the terms of the church. A member cannot leave the church unless the elder council say that member can leave.

Discipline: If a member commits a grave sin, as determined by the elders, he/she will be under discipline. At worst that member is excommunicated and no other members of the 9Marks church can contact that ousted member anymore.

So what can go wrong? Well the "grave sins" are not really defined. So the elder can be harsh on some and very lenient on others. They can pick and choose.

For example the elders can discipline a member who didn't donate at least 10%. The elders can disciple a member who missed one Sunder School class. The elders has the power to poke into every aspect of its members' lives. There is a total authoritarianism and control under this system, leading to many abuses of power.

At the same time the elders, leadership, inner circle and "upper class" members are not held to the same standards. There is the Old Boy's Club at the top, and below are the rest of the "foolish peasants" that don't know any better.

Some of the worst examples of abuses are the likes of CJ Mahaney, Todd Wilhelm and Karen Hinkley. There are many other smaller, lessor known cases. If you are interested to read more:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/07...h-discipline-and-the-problem-with-matthew-18/
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.co...rk-dever-undermined-it-and-made-it-worthless/
http://watchkeep.blogspot.ca/2015/05/karen-hinkleys-response-to-village.html
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/03/16/9marx-experiencing-pushback-guest-post-by-todd-wilhelm/

At the core of it are 2 problems.

1) Christian Perfection

They believe that all true believer will become perfect and be able to live 100% sinless lives by the power of the Holy Spirit. This is related to Calvinism. So if a member sins a "big sin" (divorce, homosexuality, abortion, etc) , that member is clearly a false-Christian. By sinning a "big sin" he shown that he do not in fact have the Holy Spirit.

Christian perfection is practiced to various degrees in these churches. And the definition of what are the "big sins" varies from church to church. But many involves public exposure and shaming of a member's "big sins". The church takes pride in letting everyone in the church knows about someone's sins. And after getting enough support that sinner is excommunicated from the church. They say the church is "better and purer" without that sinner.

All the while the "smaller sins" are totally ignored. The church might be full of prideful and jealous Christians, but nothing was done against them because they are "smaller sins". Gossiping and coveting? No one cares! It is only the "big sins" that matters. That's the problem of "Loophole Christians".

Now I am totally for changing sinners' lives into righteous living. But I believe in loving, guiding and mentoring them slowly (read: Very slowly, very gently and very patiently) toward righteousness. I don't believe in public shaming them, scaring them and threatening to give up on them.

2) A well-liked terrible sinning insider (upper class) is worth more than a righteous outsider (lower class).

Some of these churches value networking and relationships too highly, higher than the words of God. An "insider" might have committed a terrible sin, but if he is well liked in the church by the elders and pastors it is all ok! The church pour all the love, grace and mercy on this terrible sinner who committed unspeakable sins.

In fact the church would try to hide this sin and cover it up. They do this to both "protect" the sinner and, more importantly, "protect" the church's reputations. After all how can they preach Christian Perfection if there are terrible sinners in the inner circle, "upper class", elder and leadership of the church?

Often the case is these sinners are not sorry for what they did. They are just sorry that they got caught. And these high discipline churches encourage this kind of behavior by protecting these sinners.

Of course the church will quote the bible saying "Well we should deal with the sins of our brothers privately!" Meanwhile they forgot that they often make public the sins of outsiders/lower class members, those that are not in the inner power circle. Hypocrites!

As for other welling meaning Christians, no one feels comfortable confessing their sins. They fear discipline too much that they just hide their sins from everyone.

In fact these churches would turn around and go against that righteous outsider who pointed out the sin. They shame that outsider for being self righteous, judgmental, causing disunity and causing troubles. So the church excommunicates that righteous outsider instead of that well-liked terrible sinning insider.

Jesus never shown this kind of favoritism and double standard. Jesus doesn't have an "old boy's club". Jesus told Peter "Get behind me Satan!" when Peter was mistaken. Paul confronted Peter when Peter didn't eat with the Gentiles anymore. And Peter was the "rock" that Jesus would build his church on.

I hope this explains a few problems of this idea of church discipline.

 

[jacksknight]

Honestly i didn't read past this..

"Membership: Members must sign a legal contract with the church, stating that they agree to all the terms of the church. A member cannot leave the church unless the elder council say that member can leave."

It's clearly a cult or some other kind of scam.

 

[Greg J.]

There is a reason that mainstream protestant church doctrine is mainstream. It is because people noticed that they shared the same beliefs on the most significant matters. Our hurt and rebellious human nature wants set ourselves above others. But our goal on the church level as well as on a personal level should not be to strive to be better than those of the past. It is enough to strive to be like those of the past.

John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ” (John 1:15, 1984 NIV)

He also told them this parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher. (Luke 6:39-40, 1984 NIV)
__

The problems you (the original poster) are describing are the direct result of people coming to power who weren't ready for it. They seek to do things by human effort that only God can do (a yeast-like trap of Satan). At some level they are (or were) well-intentioned, but due to lack of wisdom have resulted in bad rules and behavior.

Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure. (1 Timothy 5:22, 1984 NIV)

The communities depicted in the NT were tight-knit, and being cast out of a church meant you would be shunned by many people. These days, it is easy to go to whatever church you want. Discipline is very culture-dependent.

Someone thought that the only way to get real accountability (like they saw in the Bible) from people was to make them sign a contract (parts of which are apparently not legally enforceable, by the way). Then the desire to control people "for their benefit" turned into rules. The desire to control people is a serious spiritual sickness. But on top of that, who would DARE to burden those entrusted to them with such significant rules?!

Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? (bold mine, Acts 15:10, 1984 NIV)

Jesus Christ died so we would no longer be under the rules that were made by God (the Mosaic Law). Neither are we under the "new set of rules" in the New Testament. On Judgment Day God will judge each person. Until then Judgment is not a part of God's agenda. (John 12:47) Who dares to pass judgment on another when God is not doing so? The degree of accountability adults have to other people should only be that which they have chosen.
__

Disciplining someone in public is acceptable if done in love (good luck with that) and if the sin was public. However, if it is going to shame them, then then doing it in public is not going to benefit anybody, and may very well cause people (not just the one who sinned) to turn away from God. Currently in American culture, even a tiny amount of public shame would probably cause people to turn away from God. Using the vernacular definition, shame is never from God.

Shame is the result of someone being rejected while being sensitive to whether he or she is accepted or not by people. However, God is the God of you-are-accepted-and-included-no-matter-what. That should be kept in mind for any church discipline. Church discipline requires great wisdom to handle properly, so it is prudent to keep the frequency and severity minimal. If the sinner does not have the desire to please God with repentant behavior, they aren't feeling accountable to God, in which case they should probably be the object of forgiveness and testimony of God's love ("be treated as an unbeliever").

One test is this: To what degree does the person want to go in front of the congregation and confess his public sin? If they are feeling Godly conviction, they may very well be eager to do so.

My thoughts above are not rules to be adopted. Where there are people involved, there are always unanticipated situations, and therefore exceptions. Through anything like this (and pretty much everything period) church leadership should be seeking God's will, and not do anything until anger has subsided.
__

I wouldn't be hasty to label a church a "cult." In fact, I wouldn't use the word at all. The word has many incompatible definitions.

 

[CCHIPSS]

There is a reason that mainstream protestant church doctrine is mainstream. It is because people noticed that they shared the same beliefs on the most significant matters. Our hurt and rebellious human nature wants set ourselves above others. But our goal on the church level as well as on a personal level should not be to strive to be better than those of the past. It is enough to strive to be like those of the past.

John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ” (John 1:15, 1984 NIV)

He also told them this parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher. (Luke 6:39-40, 1984 NIV)
__

The problems you (the original poster) are describing are the direct result of people coming to power who weren't ready for it. They seek to do things by human effort that only God can do (a yeast-like trap of Satan). At some level they are (or were) well-intentioned, but due to lack of wisdom have resulted in bad rules and behavior.

Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure. (1 Timothy 5:22, 1984 NIV)

The communities depicted in the NT were tight-knit, and being cast out of a church meant you would be shunned by many people. These days, it is easy to go to whatever church you want. Discipline is very culture-dependent.

Someone thought that the only way to get real accountability (like they saw in the Bible) from people was to make them sign a contract (parts of which are apparently not legally enforceable, by the way). Then the desire to control people "for their benefit" turned into rules. The desire to control people is a serious spiritual sickness. But on top of that, who would DARE to burden those entrusted to them with such significant rules?!

Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? (bold mine, Acts 15:10, 1984 NIV)

Jesus Christ died so we would no longer be under the rules that were made by God (the Mosaic Law). Neither are we under the "new set of rules" in the New Testament. On Judgment Day God will judge each person. Until then Judgment is not a part of God's agenda. (John 12:47) Who dares to pass judgment on another when God is not doing so? The degree of accountability adults have to other people should only be that which they have chosen.
__

Disciplining someone in public is acceptable if done in love (good luck with that) and if the sin was public. However, if it is going to shame them, then then doing it in public is not going to benefit anybody, and may very well cause people (not just the one who sinned) to turn away from God. Currently in American culture, even a tiny amount of public shame would probably cause people to turn away from God. Using the vernacular definition, shame is never from God.

Shame is the result of someone being rejected while being sensitive to whether he or she is accepted or not by people. However, God is the God of you-are-accepted-and-included-no-matter-what. That should be kept in mind for any church discipline. Church discipline requires great wisdom to handle properly, so it is prudent to keep the frequency and severity minimal. If the sinner does not have the desire to please God with repentant behavior, they aren't feeling accountable to God, in which case they should probably be the object of forgiveness and testimony of God's love ("be treated as an unbeliever").

One test is this: To what degree does the person want to go in front of the congregation and confess his public sin? If they are feeling Godly conviction, they may very well be eager to do so.

My thoughts above are not rules to be adopted. Where there are people involved, there are always unanticipated situations, and therefore exceptions. Through anything like this (and pretty much everything period) church leadership should be seeking God's will, and not do anything until anger has subsided.
__

I wouldn't be hasty to label a church a "cult." In fact, I wouldn't use the word at all. The word has many incompatible definitions.

Very well said. I think power corrupts even the best of men. Christians should avoid taking positions of power in the church unless they have prayed many nights and God said yes.

BTW I am all for mentorship. Mentors will pour their years of experience into a younger Christian. However a mentor do not have any actual authority over the student. The point is to share knowledge and wisdom.

The more someone has (including experience with God), the more feets they should be washing. Serve those that are young and powerless. Love them instead of ruling over them.

Yes to mentorship. No to authority.

 

[Greg J.]

God has an extreme stance on those under legitimate authority: obey them. In American culture this seems almost insane.

Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. (bold mine, 1 Peter 2:18, 1984 NIV) (1 Peter 2:18, 1984 NIV)

This verse makes it seem even more insane. But it is the past widespread abuse of authority that has made it so. The command itself is a Good thing given only for our benefit.

Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:17, 1984 NIV)

The de-Christianizing of America has meant that more and more people do not feel accountable to God for their actions, especially if done in secret. Then when they are caught sinning, the ice is broken for onlookers to do the same sins (e.g., reject those in authority).

God gives authority to people (including unbelievers) so that they may protect and guide others, not so they can control others.

Obedience to legitimate human authority is a form of love. God receives that obedience as if He is the one being obeyed, and the one obeying will be richly rewarded by God for it. God will also act to help that person to be obedient. When those in authority are obeyed (out of respect, not out of fright), and there is a seed of Godliness in them, the effect on them will be as if they are being loved.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. (Ephesians 6:5, 1984 NIV)

All of the sin in the world can be traced back to the abuse of authority by people or the failure of those under authority to obey. Rebellious actions towards authority figures are the actions that speak louder than words that we agree it is OK that leaders abuse their authority. Leaders abusing their authority as well as being rebellious towards those in authority is how the problem propagates.

See Matthew 20:25-27 for the the right attitude of those in authority (for the apostles) and the attitude not to have (the rulers of the Gentiles).

A person who chooses to be obedient to legitimate authority no matter how difficult it is through their life will have their character transformed into such that others will respect them. A person that rejects legitimate authorities through their life will be transformed into someone that can't help but be an abuser of power. This is so common that the idea that "power corrupts" is now accepted as true in the general case, but it is not true for some people.
---
EDIT: An afterthought: If you are in power or coming into power (everyone's power is increasing over time) and want to avoid the corruption that so commonly arises, then you need only make decisions all the time to please someone you are genuinely accountable to rather than to please yourself (or make yourself more comfortable).

By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. (bold mine, John 5:30, 1984 NIV)
---
In an obedient culture, God himself would deal with those in authority who have abused it too long. But there is no such widespread culture (although it can be found in small pockets). In our fallen world there are times when God accepts that abuse of authority justifies rejecting that authority, but it is much less often than it might seem. And regardless, the negative effects of the sin of rebelling against that authority will still come to pass.

 

[CCHIPSS]

God has an extreme stance on those under legitimate authority: obey them. In American culture this seems almost insane.

Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. (bold mine, 1 Peter 2:18, 1984 NIV) (1 Peter 2:18, 1984 NIV)

This verse makes it seem even more insane. But it is the past widespread abuse of authority that has made it so. The command itself is a Good thing given only for our benefit.

Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:17, 1984 NIV)

The de-Christianizing of America has meant that more and more people do not feel accountable to God for their actions, especially if done in secret. Then when they are caught sinning, the ice is broken for onlookers to do the same sins (e.g., reject those in authority).

God gives authority to people (including unbelievers) so that they may protect and guide others, not so they can control others.

Obedience to legitimate human authority is a form of love. God receives that obedience as if He is the one being obeyed, and the one obeying will be richly rewarded by God for it. God will also act to help that person to be obedient. When those in authority are obeyed (out of respect, not out of fright), and there is a seed of Godliness in them, the effect on them will be as if they are being loved.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. (Ephesians 6:5, 1984 NIV)

All of the sin in the world can be traced back to the abuse of authority by people or the failure of those under authority to obey. Rebellious actions towards authority figures are the actions that speak louder than words that we agree it is OK that leaders abuse their authority. Leaders abusing their authority as well as being rebellious towards those in authority is how the problem propagates.

See Matthew 20:25-27 for the the right attitude of those in authority (for the apostles) and the attitude not to have (the rulers of the Gentiles).

A person who chooses to be obedient to legitimate authority no matter how difficult it is through their life will have their character transformed into such that others will respect them. A person that rejects legitimate authorities through their life will be transformed into someone that can't help but be an abuser of power. This is so common that the idea that "power corrupts" is now accepted as true in the general case, but it is not true for some people.
---
EDIT: An afterthought: If you are in power or coming into power (everyone's power is increasing over time) and want to avoid the corruption that so commonly arises, then you need only make decisions all the time to please someone you are genuinely accountable to rather than to please yourself (or make yourself more comfortable).

By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. (bold mine, John 5:30, 1984 NIV)
---
In an obedient culture, God himself would deal with those in authority who have abused it too long. But there is no such widespread culture (although it can be found in small pockets). In our fallen world there are times when God accepts that abuse of authority justifies rejecting that authority, but it is much less often than it might seem. And regardless, the negative effects of the sin of rebelling against that authority will still come to pass.

Obedient to those that genuinely love and cares about you is indeed a display of obedient to God. God placed those figures above us to rule over us. And we should respect their office.

However due to rampant corruption and power abuse in government, churches and other organizations, we Christians must use very careful discernment on who to obey. Many cult leaders start off looking like Godly men, but then they get corrupted by the power of Satan and the world.

You are right to say that power corrupts is so common that we now view it as the norm. We live in a world where mindless obedience cannot be done at all. There was a time when even non-believers can guide kids toward an upstanding life. But today I cannot even tell kids to trust in any adults in church without discernment. Even in churches there are unspeakable sin that adults commit against kids and people below them.

Good point on power. If I was given power, I need to pray a lot for strength against corruption. I pray that God reminds me that I am to use my authorize to serve others and please God alone. =)

 

[CCHIPSS]

I listened to a sermon by Johnthan Leeman, the editorial director of the 9marks church. Feel free to listen to it to get their point of view.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1913229290

And I wrote the following comment:

Forgive them 77 times, meaning infinite times.

Matthew18:15-20 you must also quote 21-36. The whole passage is not about a "system" of judging, condemning & excommunicating your brother. It is about forgiving your brother infinite times because Jesus also forgave us infinite times.

1Corinthian5 that person was proudly sleeping with his father's wife. Unless it is directly applicable, who are you to judge what is a serious sin? "Holy Spirit will not allow Christians to sin this particular way?" Christians do continue to sin, so then none have the Spirit & hence all our faith is false?

You talks about expositional preaching., yet you are taking verses out of context to say what you want it to say. You are committing that very same sin/mistake!

Lost Christians can't see their sins. Have you considered how lovingly & patiently Jesus treated gentiles & tax collectors? Have you considered that the lost sinners need even more help than faithful believers? It is the sick that needs healing(Mark2:17). And yet here you are suggesting that the church abandons those lost sinners who needs the most help.

Why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on them that you yourself cannot bear?(Acts15:10) In Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor not counts for anything, but only faith working though love.(Galatians5:6)

 

[Goodbook]

Arent the 9 marks or signs of a healthy church the 9 fruits of the holy spirit? See galatians 5:22-23

Anything else is just man made.

 

[Purge187]

Honestly i didn't read past this..

"Membership: Members must sign a legal contract with the church, stating that they agree to all the terms of the church. A member cannot leave the church unless the elder council say that member can leave."

It's clearly a cult or some other kind of scam.

This. Stand clear.

 

[ViaCrucis]

*doing his best Jeff Foxworthy impression*

If the leaders of your church tell you that you're not allowed to leave because you signed a legal contract to be a member, you might be in a cult.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Mark and the elders at Capitol Hill Baptist Church are shepherding those that God has given them to care for. In the same spirit as Christ, these men will go after the 1 and leave the 99. . .

There are at least three good reasons for not allowing people leave a church without elder consent. The first is that some people hop from church to church and leave for bad reasons. They run rather than maturely work through relational issues or other things.

The second reason is that the elders want to ensure that if a person leaves for another church, they understand and are guided to a church which preaches the gospel and is led by godly men. They will also contact the receiving church. This is all what elders should be doing.

Lastly, a person might leave the church because of a crisis of faith. They may not only be walking out of a church but the Church. Any elder worth his salt would do his best to prevent this.

Judging by some of the comments in this thread, it's obvious that people who are not familiar with Dever are jumping to seriously wrong conclusions and saying some nasty stuff about him.

This kind of elder care is so rare in the US that it's not even understood by some Christians, and that is sad. We need more elders like Mark Dever.

 

[Radagast]

My friend recently was introduced a book by the pastor. The book is called 9 Marks of a Healthy Church. I had been doing some research on this book and the 9Marks church, and it is pretty alarming.

The most controversial items are Membership and Discipline.

Membership: Members must sign a legal contract with the church, stating that they agree to all the terms of the church. A member cannot leave the church unless the elder council say that member can leave.

I have an electronic copy of the book, and the words "legal" and "contract" do not appear in it at all.

It says this, however:

Jesus’ words in Matthew 18, Paul’s in I Corinthians 5-6, and many other passages clearly show that the church is to exercise judgment within itself and that this judgment is for redemptive, not revengeful purposes (Romans 12:19). In the case of the adulterous man in Corinth, and of the false teachers in Ephesus, Paul said that they should be excluded from the church and handed over to Satan so that they might be taught better and so that their souls might be saved (see I Corinthians 5; I Timothy 1).

and this:

Of course, any kind of church discipline can be done badly. In the New Testament, we are taught not to judge others for the motives which we impute to them (see Matthew 7:1), or to judge each other about matters which are not essential (see Romans 14-15). This issue is fraught with problems in pastoral application, but we must remember that the whole of the Christian life is difficult, and open to abuse. Our difficulties should not be used as an excuse to leave either unpracticed. Each local church has a responsibility to judge the life and teaching of its leaders, and even of its members, particularly in so far as either could compromise the church’s witness to the gospel (see Acts 17; I Corinthians 5; I Timothy 3; James 3:1; II Peter 3; II John).

The whole (very short) book is here. Much of the OP seems to me to be totally false in its characterisation of the book.

And there is no such thing as "the 9Marks church." 9Marks (www.9marks.org) is an organisation that publishes books and runs conferences. Some of the authors are better than others; C. J. Mahaney is indeed one of them.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Much of the OP seems to me to be totally false in its characterisation of the book.

Yes, and it is slanderous as well.

 

[CCHIPSS]

Arent the 9 marks or signs of a healthy church the 9 fruits of the holy spirit? See galatians 5:22-23

Anything else is just man made.

I will further break it down and say that there are 5 marks of a healthy church. They come from the Greatest Commandment (Mark 12:28-34) and the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16-20). I call this GC & GC. When church members displays traits of these 5 things, as encouraged by the church, the church is healthy.

1) Love God - Love God no matter how terrible your situation is. You are starving? Love God. You just lost your job? Love God. The world seems more tempting than obeying God's laws? Love God. Love God unconditionally just as God unconditionally loves you.

2) Love yourself - Love yourself no matter how badly you sinned and how messed up you are, because certainly God loves you. You do not look at beautiful or handsome as you hoped? Love yourself. You didn't get that house you wanted and your spouse is so disappointed in you? Love yourself. You just fell back into that alcohol addiction? Love yourself and don't give up! God is not done with you yet and yes he certainly loves you. Keep praying and trying to be better each day. Love yourself unconditionally just as God unconditionally loves you.

3) Love others - Love others no matter how badly they have failed or sinned against you and others, because God loves the worst of sinners. Your son just failed another math test? Love him. Your spouse never took you to that vacation promised years ago? Love him/her. Your husband is drinking again? Love him and slowly/gently/patiently guide him toward righteousness. Love others unconditionally just as God unconditionally loves you.

4) Gospel to non-believers - Use every available resource to bring the good news of Jesus to the world. Do not just talk about it, but actually do it as a church. When God gives you an opportunity to share his gospel do not back down. Prepare to defend your faith ahead of time.

Talk to non-believers at their level. Do not think that we are any better than non-believers. We were saved only because Jesus chose us to be saved. Do not be proud or arrogant.

5) Mentor each other - Jesus said made disciple of all nations, not just surface level followers that will fall from faith at the tiniest storm. So walk with young Christians and teach them what you learnt over the years. Show them the love, grace and mercy of God. If the whole church goes against that young Christian for his sin, wanting to excommunicate him immediately, defend him so the church give him more time to repent! Jesus is our defender and ask God to forgive us when we were lost. And we are often lost. Do not let a young Christian walk alone and be tempted by Satan alone.

At the same time seek a mentor. We all needs help from other brothers and sisters in Christ. Do not be proud and arrogant. Always seek help from others. And be open minded to learn new things.

 

[CCHIPSS]

Mark and the elders at Capitol Hill Baptist Church are shepherding those that God has given them to care for. In the same spirit as Christ, these men will go after the 1 and leave the 99. . .

There are at least three good reasons for not allowing people leave a church without elder consent. The first is that some people hop from church to church and leave for bad reasons. They run rather than maturely work through relational issues or other things.

The second reason is that the elders want to ensure that if a person leaves for another church, they understand and are guided to a church which preaches the gospel and is led by godly men. They will also contact the receiving church. This is all what elders should be doing.

Lastly, a person might leave the church because of a crisis of faith. They may not only be walking out of a church but the Church. Any elder worth his salt would do his best to prevent this.

Judging by some of the comments in this thread, it's obvious that people who are not familiar with Dever are jumping to seriously wrong conclusions and saying some nasty stuff about him.

This kind of elder care is so rare in the US that it's not even understood by some Christians, and that is sad. We need more elders like Mark Dever.

The problem is a lack of checks and balance. Perhaps the "founding fathers" of these ideas had a noble purpose when they implemented these ideas. However they didn't plan out defenses against potential abuse.

In fact it is often worst if the "founding fathers" are all noble. Because corruption and abuse never even crossed their minds. They assume that all pastors and elders out there are just as noble and righteous as they themselves are. But obviously this is not the case.

Now I understand that no ideas are perfect. But some writers are biased. You can tell when the book only talks about examples where the idea works. Ok fair enough those works. However what about all those other abuse cases? Why aren't they mentioned? And how should the ideas be changed and modified to prevent future abuses like these?

When power is given to anyone, there is a potential to abuse. And when there is even the slightest potential for abuse, it is bound to happen. I can point out counter examples to you 3 points.

1) People church hop for bad reasons - What about cases where people change church for very solid and valid reasons? If the church leadership is bad (usually the reason why that person is leaving), obviously they are going to make up their own version of the story.

2) Want to ensure their new church is lead by Godly men - Once again consider the case where the pastor and elders in the old church are evil. What often happens instead is this leads to a gossip drama. The old "evil" pastor tells the pastor of that new church all about that member. "Be careful of him because he used to sin that way. He cause all these problem in our church. etc" So all those "private" conversations are now in the light. The point here is not to "ensure" that person's new church is good. The point here is to cause that new church to reject that person by gossiping and "exaggerated" half-truths.

3) Person walk out of the whole faith- What if the church leadership is blinded by self-righteousness, pride and favoritism? People had been excommunicated for wanting to divorce a pedophilia (100% proven, he even admitted it), because the elders didn't want them to divorce.

(More preciously she wanted to separate her finances from her pedophilia husband, but the elders denied it because that would bring them "too close" to a divorce. Then she wanted a divorce which was denied by the elders, even when it is actually biblical to get a divorce in this situation. And when she wanted to withdraw membership it was also denied. When she stopped showing up to church she was disciplined. The elders formed a panel to "correct" her ways but she doesn't want to argue against multiple men by herself, at which point the church claims that she refused to repent. )

Other causes for discipline and excommunication are "missing Sunday school" and "not tithing enough".

So the person is walking out not because he lost his faith, but because he no longer agree with the church's wrong theologies. But the church can discipline that member over wrong theologies. In fact that member is "obviously" denying Christ and the gospel by denying their wrong theology....

Once again my point is a lack of checks and balances from the people who wrote down these ideas and for those who reads them. Even if the original author has noble intentions, fact is abuses are already happening. In fact these abuses happened right within churches within the 9Marks group. So how about other church who read these books and tries to follow them? When even the "original" group of churches isn't able to prevent abuses, how can other churches?

You guys are more than welcome to read these stuff online for yourself. But here is one link:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/03...t-live-with-and-what-that-might-mean-for-you/

Dever believes that church polity is relevant to the gospel.

Most people don’t think polity is something that’s relevant to the gospel. I do.

Ah-the ultimate gambit. If you do not agree with the church governance in regards to church discipline or membership, you might be in danger of denying the gospel. That means you may not be a Christian, or in their lingo, regenerated. Make sure you understand that when you are called *unregenerate*, they are saying that you are outside of the faith. That might lead to church discipline.

Folks, be careful in calling a new pastor to your church. I know of a church in which the elders refused to let the congregation know that they were changing the polity and would do so by bringing in a new pastor who would implement that polity. They would not allow any questions that dealt with Calvinism during the Q+A. He got voted in, and now the church is fully part of the Neo-Calvinist movement.

Church membership is a must so they know over whom they have authority to discipline for sin and error

12. No formal membership. I can live with this. But, depending on the situation, not for long! In this fallen world, sin and error will arise within the church, which means that we must know who has the final authority for acting against sin and error. Since the New Testament teaches that the congregation has this final say (see Matt. 18; 1 Cor. 5; 2 Cor. 2; Gal. 1) I have to know who belongs to the congregation. Too, the members need to know of their own obligations, responsibilities, and privileges. There may be cultural reasons why a church in a non-transient, small community in which Christians are a minority could effectively operate with only an informal membership. But except for these very particular circumstances, Scripture and practice mandate that we have a clear membership in order to function biblically as a church.

Read between the lines. They must have a declared membership in order to implement church discipline. Although they don't admit it, they know that there is a legal reason for this. However, from what I can tell, this group never defines what they will discipline. That is to their advantage. They can discipline what they want, whenever they want. Never forget Todd Wilhelm, "The Guy From Dubai".

I am alot more concerned with the things God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit can/cannot live with than the personal preferences of Pope Dever or really any other pastor. I know that sounds awful coming from a minister and seminary student but I have to tell you the more stuff like his I read or hear and the more I see the flat out misuse and abuse happening in our churches the more I would just rather go fishing!

As far as all the membership agreements and covenants go, people really need to ask themselves “Why does my church/pastor want me to sign this document?” I have yet to see a document where the member has any rights or that sets out what the member can expect the church to do for them. What I see is what the church expects from the member and what the church plans to do when they find the member in violation of the agreement.

It has been awhile since I studied the covenenats in the Bible but it seems I recall that the powerful person made a covenenat with those in lesser power and basically told them what he would provide, his promises to them. What these membership covenants seem to do is tell the powerless what the powerful expect. These are no different that contracts with your mortgage company or bank. Basically abide by the contract or we come take our stuff back. That is a fair agreement for a bank, seems a little out of place for the Body of Christ. Didn’t God already make the last covenant we need with the blood of His son? Didn’t He pay the earnest money or down payment in the form of His Spirit so that we would have confidence of our future inheritance? With that being the case what in the world do I need some piece of paper from a church for?

Ok I am done, this stuff really gets under my skin

 

[CCHIPSS]

I have an electronic copy of the book, and the words "legal" and "contract" do not appear in it at all.

It says this, however:

Jesus’ words in Matthew 18, Paul’s in I Corinthians 5-6, and many other passages clearly show that the church is to exercise judgment within itself and that this judgment is for redemptive, not revengeful purposes (Romans 12:19). In the case of the adulterous man in Corinth, and of the false teachers in Ephesus, Paul said that they should be excluded from the church and handed over to Satan so that they might be taught better and so that their souls might be saved (see I Corinthians 5; I Timothy 1).

and this:

Of course, any kind of church discipline can be done badly. In the New Testament, we are taught not to judge others for the motives which we impute to them (see Matthew 7:1), or to judge each other about matters which are not essential (see Romans 14-15). This issue is fraught with problems in pastoral application, but we must remember that the whole of the Christian life is difficult, and open to abuse. Our difficulties should not be used as an excuse to leave either unpracticed. Each local church has a responsibility to judge the life and teaching of its leaders, and even of its members, particularly in so far as either could compromise the church’s witness to the gospel (see Acts 17; I Corinthians 5; I Timothy 3; James 3:1; II Peter 3; II John).

The whole (very short) book is here. Much of the OP seems to me to be totally false in its characterisation of the book.

And there is no such thing as "the 9Marks church." 9Marks (www.9marks.org) is an organisation that publishes books and runs conferences. Some of the authors are better than others; C. J. Mahaney is indeed one of them.

Of course they are not going to call them legal contracts. They name them Church Convents. A illegal gang will not call themselves a gang directly in their name. Doesn't mean it isn't a criminal gang.

I am a firm believer of "Good tree produce good fruits. Bad trees produces bad fruits." Now I am not saying the 9Marks are bad churches as a whole. But their handling and allowing of abuses is a bad fruit. This means something is wrong in the tree itself in this aspect. Long story short don't look at what they say. Look at what is the end result and what is happening to these abuses.

I am so glad that you bring up C. J. Mahaney. He is the primary prove that there is an "old boys' club" happening in the 9Marks group of churches. If you are the "insider group" then you will not get disciplined (above reproach) even if you tried to cover up sexual abuses of children. You can even run away from your own congregation and hide from your sins. (sounds familiar?) In fact the church group welcomes you to keep preaching and keep selling your books. But if you are the "outsider group" you will get excommunicated for missing Sunday school or not tithing enough.

See the favoritism and hypocrisy? What does these bad fruits tells you about the tree? I can almost hear the prophet Nathan screaming out "You are the man!!!"

Feel free to read these stuff online for yourself. Here is one:

http://www.brentdetwiler.com/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...istries-scandal-and-the-end-of-new-calvinism/

Jennifer says:
April 28, 2016 at 7:40 pm

Are you supporting CJ because it is the goal of your organizations to lean towards abusive leadership models? Aren’t the 12,000 of us in his wreckage evidence enough? Has anyone asked the members of CLC how they are doing in the aftermath of his abandonment and refusal to reconcile or communicate with ANYONE? Have you explored how they are spiritually coping with this tremendous act of hypocrisy against all we have been taught? Have you spoke to ANY of them? I will send you a church directory from five years ago if you would like and you can spend the day making calls asking how people are holding up? Do they still go to church? Do they believe in God? Do their children? Do you have broken relationships because of CJ’s actions? Are you aware of the families and marriages that have split regarding their loyalties to CJ in his sin? Do you realize, those of us who survived the first wave of church splits regarding SGM will now have to weather another barrage of church splits regarding loyalties to The Gospel Coalition or Together for the Gospel because you have his back? What does that say to us about God when prominent spiritual leaders endorse a man who spiritually abused his flock? The flock who sought to make his life such a joy? How were we to know in our loyal covenant with CJ as our leader that actually HE would be the greatest hindrance to the Gospel in our family’s lives. Doesn’t that count for anything? If you side with him, WE have nowhere to go. Literally spent the day Googling churches asking for ones in town that were not associated with T4G or TGC. Starting over…or not. T4G allowing him to speak felt like the pastors and people at CLC were assaulted.

 

[CCHIPSS]

I want to add that this is not a one time thing. This is a systemic error. The bad fruits keeps getting produced from this bad tree. Covenant Life Church was heavily related to The Gospel Coalition and the 9 Marks Group. Feel free to google up youth leader Nathaniel Morales' sexual abuse of children. And how Pastor Grant Layman tried to cover it up.

The kids were abused in youth camps. These are probably the same youth camps that if you do not sent you kids to, you will be excommunicated for being a bad parent. Now I know I am putting two things together here. But you should see the potential of abuse on all levels here.

Joshua Harris was the senior pastor of Covenant Life Church. Joshua Harris was the guy who said people aren't even allowed to date. That if you date someone and breaks up, that's a big part of your heart that you will never get back. Well so when children gets sexually abused, I guess their life is done for. This is extreme purity, called purity movement.

It is sad because Joshua himself was sexually abused in church as a kid. So he himself should know best that what he wrote in his book wasn't true. Love is unlimited and so yes love and "heart" can be given to multiple people in our life time. It is possible to even have sex (like he did when he was sexually abused) and still have a fruitful marriage (like he eventually did). Now the church must stand that sex before marriage is wrong, but the church do not need to hold it to some crazy standard.

It is that very same extreme purity movement that leads to an over-trusting and over-empowering of elders and youth leaders, that very well had led to him being sexually abused himself in church. People are usually very careful who they hand power and authority to. But rarely in churches.

As you can see in extreme purity churches there are often extreme power abuse, because the elders are given a lot of power in order to maintain purity. And this often leads to various abuse on all levels, including sexual abuse of children. And then the church often tries to cover up their crime because the church want to portrait an image of purity.

Another example would be R.C. Sproul Jr.'s visit to Ashley Madison, and how his father R.C. Sproul Sr. and Ligonier Board were all in to try to cover it up. All of these talks about extreme purity only leads to power abuse and cover up of sins.

Sin leads to sin. And more sins leads to even more sin. Hence I say bad tree produce bad fruits. And will continue to produce bad fruits.

That's why I am against the idea of extreme purity and discipline based on that. Firstly extreme purity is not required, since our salvation is by Jesus' forgiveness alone. Secondly the distribution of power must be very carefully done. A system have to put in place to prevent sexual abuse of children, for example. Do not trust the elders just because of their smooth tongue. Thirdly discipline must be very very very careful done to prevent abuse. There must be checks and balances.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I want to add that this is not a one time thing. This is a systemic error. The bad fruits keeps getting produced from this bad tree. Covenant Life Church was heavily related to The Gospel Coalition and the 9 Marks Group. Feel free to google up youth leader Nathaniel Morales' sexual abuse of children. And how Pastor Grant Layman tried to cover it up.

The kids were abused in youth camps. These are probably the same youth camps that if you do not sent you kids to, you will be excommunicated for being a bad parent. Now I know I am putting two things together here. But you should see the potential of abuse on all levels here.

Joshua Harris was the senior pastor of Covenant Life Church. Joshua Harris was the guy who said people aren't even allowed to date. That if you date someone and breaks up, that's a big part of your heart that you will never get back. Well so when children gets sexually abused, I guess their life is done for. This is extreme purity, called purity movement.

It is sad because Joshua himself was sexually abused in church as a kid. So he himself should know best that what he wrote in his book wasn't true. Love is unlimited and so yes love and "heart" can be given to multiple people in our life time. It is possible to even have sex (like he did when he was sexually abused) and still have a fruitful marriage (like he eventually did). Now the church must stand that sex before marriage is wrong, but the church do not need to hold it to some crazy standard.

It is that very same extreme purity movement that leads to an over-trusting and over-empowering of elders and youth leaders, that very well had led to him being sexually abused himself in church. People are usually very careful who they hand power and authority to. But rarely in churches.

As you can see in extreme purity churches there are often extreme power abuse, because the elders are given a lot of power in order to maintain purity. And this often leads to various abuse on all levels, including sexual abuse of children. And then the church often tries to cover up their crime because the church want to portrait an image of purity.

Another example would be R.C. Sproul Jr.'s visit to Ashley Madison, and how his father R.C. Sproul Sr. and Ligonier Board were all in to try to cover it up. All of these talks about extreme purity only leads to power abuse and cover up of sins.

Sin leads to sin. And more sins leads to even more sin. Hence I say bad tree produce bad fruits. And will continue to produce bad fruits.

That's why I am against the idea of extreme purity and discipline based on that. Firstly extreme purity is not required, since our salvation is by Jesus' forgiveness alone. Secondly the distribution of power must be very carefully done. A system have to put in place to prevent sexual abuse of children, for example. Do not trust the elders just because of their smooth tongue. Thirdly discipline must be very very very careful done to prevent abuse. There must be checks and balances.

What does any of this have to do with you dragging Mark Dever's name through the mud?

There are evil pastors, yes. Just there are evil gossips and slanderers sitting in the pews, as well. Where are the checks and balances for the congregants? Many a congregation have rebelled against even the finest men. Jonathan Edwards was booted from his church, for example.

 

[CCHIPSS]

What does any of this have to do with you dragging Mark Dever's name through the mud?

There are evil pastors, yes. Just there are evil gossips and slanderers sitting in the pews, as well. Where are the checks and balances for the congregants? Many a congregation have rebelled against even the finest men. Jonathan Edwards was booted from his church, for example.

Mark Dever "could" have been the hero if he disciplined C. J. Mahaney and excommunicate him. But instead nope, Mark Dever defended C. J. Mahaney on his cover up of child sexual abuse.

https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/...romote-the-movie-spotlight-sex-abuse-coverup/

A few years ago, the case was exploding in the media and a number of TGC council members made public statements in support of CJ Mahaney (see links below). Mahaney was also still on the TGC speaking circuit as if there was no problem whatsoever. I have yet to see TGC leaders publicly speak out about the way Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries mishandled the multitude of sex abuse cases which were covered up. These cases included an alleged sex ring, families told to not report the sex abuse crimes to authorities, etc.

https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/04/14/an-open-letter-to-mark-dever-part-1-of-2-posts/

An open letter to Mark Dever exploring his scandalous history and his support for C.J. Mahaney. This also examines a classic question from the infamous McCarthy hearings as applied to Mark Dever. Plus is the reason why Mark Dever supports C.J. Mahaney allegedly due to the amount of money he has received or is he afraid that he could be blackmailed as well, just like Larry Tomczak? These are just my exceptionally blunt thoughts.

To anyone who read up the information online, it is pretty obvious that C. J. Mahaney was indeed covering up for child molesters. He did that to maintain a purity image of his church. This is exactly the same thing that "some" Catholic Churches did. C. J. Mahaney never repented and is not sorry at all for the cover ups he did.

By not disciplining and excommunicating C. J. Mahaney, but instead actively supporting C. J. Mahaney, Mark Dever is in effect supporting the cover up. And by covering it up, Mark Dever is in effect supporting the sexual abuse of children. And so Mark Dever is saying every single of the victims of these sexual abuses, cover ups and church splits as liars, all falsely accusing C. J. Mahaney.

Seeing a crime and saying nothing is, in a way, just as bad as committing the crime itself. Mark Dever is encouraging this type of sexual abuse and cover up behavior and leading his church (his sheeps) astray.

Mark Dever fully knows what he is doing and he choose to walk with Satan, by cover ups and lies. Bad tree produce bad fruits. He cannot claim to be a good tree when he produce such a huge huge huge bad fruits.

I hope Mark Dever repent soon, else I will doubt his faith in Jesus. How can someone truly has the Holy Spirit be so wicked as to support sexual abuse and cover ups? And then he turns around and say people cannot miss Sunday Schools and cannot tithe less than whatever % or amount. And then he teams up with Joshua Harris and say people cannot date at all and cannot even hold hands.

The term "beyond reproach" is a high standard for the elders and pastors to live up to. Not spin it the other way around, where once someone becomes an elder or pastor no one can touch them. When someone produce a bad fruit this evil and terrible, it puts an evil and terrible dent/mark/scar on even the most Godly and holy works that he did in the past.

As you can see I am far from alone. Many people are calling out Mark Dever & gang's hypocrisy.

Barbara Roberts ‎@NotUnderBondage
@TGC are hypocrites. CJ Maheny covered up sexual abuse at Sovereign Grace & you stand with him! @DefendTheSheep

Sarah R ‎@SarieAnneR
@DefendTheSheep the attitudes of @TGC, @RevKevDeYoungand others toward abuse in church are shaking my faith like nothing has before.

crumbledmess
NOVEMBER 29, 2015 @ 9:17 PM


I don’t think TGC knows what endorsing CJ will now do to every church affiliated with them. Before, it was every church in SGM that had to deal with CJ’s fleeing from discipline and abandonment of his flock. And, I’m not even talking sexual abuse. I’m talking about the spiritual abuse of God’s chosen people. I’m talking about exalting the mission of the church above the very souls of it’s members. I’m talking about stomping on people in the name of God. Crushing His Beloved. Every church in SGM is split over one topic…CJ. Many of those churches and other TGC churches that absorbed their refugees are suffering and bleeding over the arrogant behavior of this one man.

Now, TGC is choosing to orchestrate a split in every TGC affiliated church by supporting CJ. When they publicly support CJ, they are accusing each one of his victims, the pastors and members of Covenant Life Church and the two dozen other churches that left SGM of being liars. They are the accusers of the brethren. Every church affiliated with TGC is precariously teetering on a cliff waiting to see if TGC will choose CJ. If the pastors in these precarious churches, already torn by division in SGM support TGC, you will see every church in TGC undergo massive church splits and even crumble from existence. In churches all over the country, member have their bags packed with one foot in the door and one foot Googling “Presbyterian”. TGC loyalties to an unfaithful man will ultimately bring about the demise of this movement. To God be the glory.

Do the right thing TGC. Distance yourself. Or disappear. Stop calling us liars and seek the truth. God was here. And, you were not.

And like I said this wasn't the only example. You guys are free to research online yourself for the whole story.

 

[Goodbook]

If you dont belong to that church or associated with it i dont think it ought to concern you that much.

9 fruits of the holy spirit..you can tell a person by their fruits. If their fruit is bad, then leave it alone. If the tree has no fruits, leave it for a year, manure it, and wait. It may come right and grow. Thats what Jesus said to do.

Love is one of the fruits of the holy spirit, the others like peace, joy, kindness, goodness, meekness, temperance etc. All signs of healthy christians. This will be reflected in their fellowship with one another.