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9/11 Truth for Dummies: Wrap Your Head Around One Thing

H

HorsieJuice

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Ok. I have to be honest, I'm pretty much screwed when it comes to math.

Then you shouldn't be arguing engineering with engineers.

I just can't for some reason believe that the top of a building could perfectly destroy the vast majority of the rest of the building.

That "top of the building" was still something like 18 stories on one tower and 30 stories on another: that "top of the building" was bigger than the entirety of most buildings you likely worked on.


The WTC was larger, designed differently, and had suffered different damage than the buildings on which you worked. Why would you expect it to behave the same way?

I'm never goanna be able to explain it mathematically. So I'm going to try to find out by different means.

My suggestion: find a free, downloadable engineering game. One of the first two links from this site should work well: BridgeBuilder-Game.com - The ultimate bridge building games website

Play around with that (make sure to turn on the Stress option) and watch as the load shifts as the train drives over the bridge. Watch how putting supports in different areas makes the structure stronger or weaker - including how trying to strengthen one area can actually focus the stresses into a single point, weakening the entire structure.

This one is ok, too if you want to see how removing certain supports can cause twisting/buckling motions in certain members.

But ultimately, if you can't explain it mathematically, you will never be able to "find out by different means." Period. Mathematics is the language of engineering. Mathematics is how you describe the behavior of physical objects. Without it, your ideas will be nothing more than blind guesses.
 
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Psalm 91

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For rhetorical effect, and an aversion to facts, weren't you supposed to say '19 arabs living in caves'? I don't want you to miss a chance to use hyperbole to exaggerate/misrepresent the truth.


Btodd


Sir, it is you who refuses to open your mind to any other person's ideas. And not only that, but are critical of other's opinions and accuse them of "misrepresenting" the truth. It wouldn't be so bad if you were kind, but you are not. Why are you so threatened?


Forty years from now, there is a good chance that 80% of the people will know it was an inside job, just like the 80% who no longer believe that JFK was killed by Oswald. If it weren't a possibility, it would have gone away long ago, but the questions and suspicion NEVER go away. Most of the 80% who will stop believing the official explanation will be people like me who know nothing about science but have common sense. You can keep talking about all of the scientific stuff, but when you look at the video, common sense tells you that something is not right! You can ignore my posts all that you want since I cannot engage in scientific discussions, I don't care. But I am sitting back and seeing the attention you are giving this topic and how passionate you are about it. Why? If you and the elites are right and Arabs with boxcutters caused the the towers to fall, the truth, either way, will prevail.
 
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keith99

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Psalm 91

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Btodd

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I'm not kind to ManFromUncle for the reasons I already articulated, so guilty as charged there.

And if you don't care about science, then there's no sense in even thinking about how the buildings fell, because that is a scientific question, whether it involves severed columns, fires and collapse, or a conspiratorial controlled demolition.


Btodd
 
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Paul01

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You make the statement, "...The mass of the TWC was many times greater than the weight coming down upon it...", right after giving me a lesson on the distinction between mass and force?

Though not explicitly stated you imply that the basis for your argument is that each floor was designed to carry the load of all floors above it. This is simply not how skyscrapers are designed. If you can reference a structural building code (any code) that spells out such a requirement I would love to see it. There are components of the building that ARE designed for these loads...but not the parts of individual floors that actually were impacted by the floors above. You have piles, columns, etc. that will indeed see a portion of the entire building load. But that isn't what the collapsing portion of the building actually impacted.

I think in part of your response you are talking about impact loading but you have no mention of velocity and you seem to be haphazardly mixing weight and mass terms so I'm not sure how to address it.

Another problem with trying to simplify the collapse scenario is just taking a simple wide flange member as an example, and consider how the section modulus varies, often vastly, depending on load orientation. It's obvious that any torsionally loaded member in particular would have substantially less capacity than had it been loaded in pure strong axis bending. I would argue that every single member was subjected on some level to such impact loading. This is another of a huge list of problems with trying to oversimplify the collapse.

In your 2nd paragraph, are you trying to say that material (I assume yield) stress values are a predictor of it's ability to absorb impact loads? Not sure I follow exactly what the basis is for your argument here. You are also now bringing the "size" of the falling building into the discussion here - so you're saying it undergoes negative acceleration, in part due to a reduction in it's volume?
 
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M

ManFromUncle

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Though not explicitly stated you imply that the basis for your argument is that each floor was designed to carry the load of all floors above it. This is simply not how skyscrapers are designed.

The absurdity of this statement should settle the futility of your position for anyone paying attention. If any point in the skyscraper is not designed to carry the weight above it then anyone sitting in a tall building right now is in big trouble. You are twisting yourself in knots in an attempt to prove what defies the laws of physics, that a few floors collapsing goes faster and faster because of the accumulation of collapsing floors, through a path of enormous resistance.

As the main post explains, all you need to know is that steel, even soft steel, is thousands of times denser than air, and so any falling mass could not fall through that resistance at the same speed as it would fall through air. That is because heavier mass does not speed up if it accumulates. It can only expend energy and slow down.

The towers were not a house of cards waiting to come down. The official explanation is pure cartoon physics and impossible, the same as Wile E. Coyote falling off a cliff and making a hole in the ground when he hits that comes out in China.

The rest, the molten steel, the straight cut beams flung hither and yon, the presence of thermite explosives, the NORAD stand-down, all the questions about the Pentagon, is all icing on the cake, and there is a lot of icing. Here is the complete 90 minute documentary run by Colorado PBS, by 1700 Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth. It's free. If you be American, watch it.

[youtube]6xif0jIT_ZM[/youtube]

9/11: Explosive Evidence - Experts Speak Out : Colorado Public Television, KBDI 12 in Denver, Colorado
 
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keith99

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It matters a lot how smart and educated someone is. At the least it is a major contributing factor to how good a lie they can create.

If it is someone trying to figure out which side is accurate it makes all the difference in the world as the smarter and better educated person is in a far better position to catch real inconsistencies or errors.

You claim to be using some common sense. OK then please explain how the idea that someone managed to sneak into 2 buildings and plant the explosives to take them down. And not just take them down but to fire at each level just as the falling mass from above reaches that point.

And somehow no one ever noticed it.
These are not a Medieval Castle with secret passages. So how did someone plant all these perfectly times charges unnoticed?

Heck if you go that far it makes a lot more sense to go all the way. The charges were put in place when during construction! If the explosives were incorporated into the building materials before they made it to the site.

You are choking on gnats when it comes to the official explanation and swallowing camels when it comes to the alternatives proposed by the 'truthers' .
 
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cow451

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Again you intermix static force with dynamic force. A building stands because it's structure bears static force. There was not "enormous resistence" because the structural supports were weakened and the dynamic force could not be withstood. That's why the early "pancake theory was discounted by the NIST study.
NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. You keep disputing a point that isn't made. The NIST used the term "essentially" a free fall, which isn't saying the same thing as falling at the same rate as if in thin air.

NIST estimated the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated in each of the towers to be approximately 11 seconds for WTC 1 and approximately 9 seconds for WTC 2. These elapsed times were based on: (1) precise timing of the initiation of collapse from video evidence, and (2) ground motion (seismic) signals recorded at Palisades, N.Y., that also were precisely time-calibrated for wave transmission times from lower Manhattan (see NIST NCSTAR 1-5A).
 
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ManFromUncle

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And once again, the dynamic force of a few floors of 3-inch thick concrete floor slabs, their pans and trusses, cannot crush 95,000 tons of structural steel, one third of that in the vertical backbone, anymore than the dynamic force of Wile E. Coyote falling off a cliff can make a deep hole in the ground, instead of Wile E. getting squashed flat.


Twin Tower core backbone under construction


But here is the important part: EVEN IF IT COULD, since steel is 8,000 times denser than air even in its liquid state, no mass could fall through it at the same speed it falls through air. it doesn't matter if it was "only" 80% of free-fall acceleration. That's like saying, no officer, I wasn't doing 160 MPH in a 60 MPH zone. It was only 150 mph. In other words, you are not even in the ball park.

Every piece of the Windsor tower which fell also had "dynamic force," and it burned for 20 hours not one, and was of weaker construction. None of these partial collapses "caused a force that the tower was not built to withstand." Because, yes, towers are designed to withstand fires and partial collapses too. That means yes, they are designed to survive "dynamic force."


Windsor fire, burned 20 hours
[SIZE=-1]

[SIZE=-1]Windsor fire damage
[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]


[/SIZE]Windsor fire time frame of partial, stopped collapses

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/compare/windsor.html

Time Collapse Situation

1:29 East face of the 21st floor collapsed
1:37 South middle section of several floors above the 21st floor gradually collapsed
1:50 Parts of floor slab with curtain walls collapsed
2:02 Parts of floor slab with curtain walls collapsed
2:11 Parts of floor slab with curtain walls collapsed
2:13 Floors above about 25th floor collapsed Large collapse of middle section at about 20th floor
2:17 Parts of floor slab with curtain walls collapsed
2:47 Southwest corner of 1 ~ 2 floors below about 20th floor collapsed
2:51 Southeast corner of about 18th ~ 20th floors collapsed
3:35 South middle section of about 17th ~ 20th floors collapsed Fire broke through the Upper Technical Floor
3:48 Fire flame spurted out below the Upper Technical Floor
4:17 Debris on the Upper Technical Floor fell down
 
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Trogdor the Burninator

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You keep quoting the mass of the remaining structure like it means something, even after multiple people including engineers on this thread have pointed out that it isn't relevant - the strength of the few structural members meeting the impacting force at any particular instant is.

It's like looking at the Tacoma Bridge collapse and quoting that "Air isn't denser than steel, and even with a few cables failing the rest were designed to hold the whole bridge up, therefore the bridge collapse must be a conspiracy!"
 
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Trogdor the Burninator

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The rest, the molten steel, the straight cut beams flung hither and yon, the presence of thermite explosives, the NORAD stand-down, all the questions about the Pentagon, is all icing on the cake, and there is a lot of icing.

Has someone from Landscape Gardeners and Sales Engineers for 9/11 Truth found the plane that was supposed to hit the Pentagon, plus all the passengers and crew yet?
 
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ManFromUncle

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Yep a bridge has just the same architecture as a skyscraper, alright. A horizontal load-bearing structure vs. a vertical one with nothing but steel between it and the ground throughout 47 core columns.

See how dumb they think you are?
 
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cow451

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I don't know if you simply can't get it or simply aren't willing to to.
There is no comparison. The two buildings are very different and circumstances very different.
 
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Paul01

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The absurdity of this statement should settle the futility of your position for anyone paying attention. If any point in the skyscraper is not designed to carry the weight above it then anyone sitting in a tall building right now is in big trouble...

By your logic, every point on the first floor is designed to carry the 109 stories above it. Buildings are not designed this way. Show me a building code from anywhere in the world that requires it. As I have clearly stated, columns and other components at the building's base carry the entire building load, not individual floors. If the collapsing floors had landed only on the columns and not also crashed into weaker members supporting individual floor loads, the lower floor on the receiving end of the collision could have withstood the impact. That's not what happened.

...That is because heavier mass does not speed up if it accumulates..."

False. Falling bodies subjected to gravitional force accelerate (W=mg). Acceleration is a measure of rate of change of velocity (a=dv/dt).
 
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Aryeh Jay

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The biggest piece of evidence supporting the facts that September 11th was a terrorist attack and not some super secret inside job perpetrated by George Bush, Dick Cheney, the US Government, the Israelis, and the Illuminati is right here. If there was one piece of real actual evidence that could remotely prove that it was an inside job, all the moon bats posting that it was would have been eliminated long ago.

The thing they can’t answer is what happened to the pilots and crews of the plains, the passengers, the guy that flew the drone/cruse missile into the pentagon, the hundreds of demolition experts that rigged the explosives, the pilots that shot down flight 93, the guy that developed the hologram that looked like planes flying, the guys that put the mind control drugs into the water supply so everyone in New York that day would have the same hallucination, the guys at the photo booths that digitally added plains to peoples pictures they took that day, the list goes on. All that from a guy that couldn’t say nuk-clear and lye-berry.
 
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LostMarbels

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This is absolutely crazy. I have tried to respond 4 or 5 times now with new theories and evidence, but every time CF has crashed on me and I have lost my post in it's entirety. I'm not going to stop trying though.
 
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contango

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You should have destroyed your entire house. Maybe even taken out a block or two surrounding it.
 
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LostMarbels

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I have even heard the argumet:
If you think DYNAMIC loads are not important take the challenge of even a 10kg weight dropped from 12ft (WTC story height)and try and catch it. WE WILL SEND THE FLOWERS.

I say: How about dropping 10kg weight 12ft and having 70 people stacked vertically (like the 70 floors of undamaged building were) try to catch that weight?

I'm pretty confident that the weight would be caught way above the ground.

The argument as stated is that if you drop something from a height of 12 feet, it will be moving at about 19 miles per hour by the time it reaches the ground. It doesn't matter whether it is a single brick or a 30 story building. After falling 12 feet it will be moving at about 19 mph.

So if the lower 79 floors are strong enough to support a stationary 31 story building, do you think they will be strong enough to support a 31 story building falling at 19 mph?

That's what I'm looking into. I honestly believe there are factors that the naysayers are not considering.

(1) The 'pancake theory' is ridiculous. The WTC did not pancake. They were completely pulverized into an indiscriminate pile of smoldering rubble.





(2) The structural make up of the towers is seen is completely inconsequential to it's collapse. This approach is wrong for two major reasons:

(a) The floors 31 floors falling onto the remaining 79 floors are likewise constructed, and use the same materials. To say they were able to completely smash threw the reaming building unimpeded is crazy.

(b) The lower 79 floors are made out of stronger, thicker, heavier, and more closely spaced beams. Simply put. more mass is always in the lower 2/3rds of a building to keep it stable, and give it the strength to hold the load of the higher floors.

(3) The WTC was not 'conventionally' built like below.





The WTC flooring was a very heavy duty set of cross braced Vierendeel trusses.





The World Trade Center towers used high-strength, load-bearing perimeter steel columns called Vierendeel trusses that were spaced closely together to form a strong, rigid wall structure, supporting virtually all lateral loads such as wind loads, and sharing the gravity load with the core columns. The perimeter structure containing 59 columns per side was constructed with extensive use of prefabricated modular pieces each consisting of three columns, three stories tall, connected by spandrel plates.[31] The spandrel plates were welded to the columns to create the modular pieces off-site at the fabrication shop.[32] Adjacent modules were bolted together with the splices occurring at mid-span of the columns and spandrels. The spandrel plates were located at each floor, transmitting shear stress between columns, allowing them to work together in resisting lateral loads. The joints between modules were staggered vertically so the column splices between adjacent modules were not at the same floor.
One of the reasons It is important to point this out is that the collum, perimiter wall, and the floor trussing was made to work in concert in carrying the entier load, and stresses of the building. In a starnderd building the colum and outer skin would carry th weight of the flooring, but in the WTC the flooring was part of the structures rigidity, and had it's part in sharing laterail, horizotial, and twisting loads. Meaing this, the flooring was not just suspended weight. It was part of the load bearing structer. Energy that affected any one point of the building would be absourbed by all thre systems at the same time.

(4) No consideration is given to how much energy (force) is dissapated in the destruction of an object. I have heard staments that oveR 4.1 billion joules OR 3,319,073,609 pound-force/foot² = 23,049,122 psi of energy would have built up from the falling structer before it hit the building underneith it. That means it would only take an affected are of 434.89 Sq inches in the 53,000 psi rated center colum to absorb that impact.
 
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