.

[bèlla]

.

 

[Paidiske]

My point was that as a woman of her generation, and in her field, Miranda's views are unusual.

As to the rest, I also have no interest in competing with or emasculating or disrespecting my partner (etc etc ) but that doesn't mean I dumb myself down or take a back seat or become a doormat, either. A genuine partnership of equals really is possible and I won't settle for less.

 

[Radagast]

Thank you. She's right. It's especially true if you have a strong personality or level of responsibility that requires those traits. It can be challenging for some to turn it off when they get home.

In my experience, southern and eastern European women are more likely to combine a professional career with stereotypically "feminine" behaviour at home.

 

[bèlla]

.

 

[bèlla]

.

 

[BNR32FAN]

According to Miranda Kerr: Women "Need to Make a Little Effort" When It Comes to Pleasing Their Men

"My grandma taught me that men are visual and you need to make a little effort," the model said in an interview with The Edit. "So when [Evan] comes home, I make sure to have a nice dress on and the candles lit. We make time to have a nice dinner together." (read the full article on Harpar's Bazaar.)

For the purposes of discussion:

Do you agree? Why or Why not? And what constitutes "a little effort?" Who defines it?

I would like to politely point out that both men and women should make an effort to please each other.

 

[Paidiske]

That's an odd turn of phrase. Who mentioned dumbing themselves down? I didn't. Nor am I advocating being a doormat either. Sometimes when you have much in your tank you recognize the beauty found in lowering. Each person is welcome to their perspective. I agree with her and have met many who feel the same.

It's common advice to intelligent women, to hide our intelligence so that our men won't feel challenged. Same sort of category of advice, it seems to me, as this stuff about becoming submissive so he won't feel threatened.

A real man won't be threatened by my intelligence, my strength, or my courage. He'll appreciate that those are good qualities in a life partner. I don't want a man who wants me to be less than I could be for the sake of his ego.

And that's the danger of comments like Miranda's, especially when they're snippets taken out of the context of a loving relationship; they end up becoming advice to women to be less, be smaller, be quieter. Hide your talents in the ground. Not healthy.

 

[bèlla]

.

 

[Radagast]

It's common advice to intelligent women, to hide our intelligence so that our men won't feel challenged.

The woman who comes home from her job as a nuclear physicist and says "honey, can you fix the kitchen tap for me?" isn't "hiding her intelligence." She's showing respect to her husband, and giving her husband an opportunity to show love to her.

I have a problem with taking someone like Miranda Kerr as a role model, because "beautiful" does not necessarily imply "wise." However, when she says "men feel important when you ask for their help," she's spot on.

 

[Paidiske]

You're almost echoing the arguments that feminists use. I would hope we can see a middle ground on the subject. God has a hierarchy as does the church. But it would appear you have difficulty with the topic. How do you reconcile your beliefs with biblical headship?

I don't believe in hierarchy in marriage. I believe headship is ultimately about unity, not power or control or one person being in charge.

What is a "real man?" And while you're at it. What is a "real woman?"

While I would struggle to define either in ways which aren't problematic (I don't like putting people in boxes), someone who needs to have or make someone small so they can feel big isn't a mature adult of either sex.

I am confused. You have already indicated we're dealing with "intelligent women" and I would assume that includes a capacity for reason and discernment. So why is a comment made by a popular figure she's never meet or will meet suddenly "threatening?"

Because there are many vulnerable women out there who buy into whatever narrative they're fed. The narrative of womanly helplessness and powerlessness is inherently dangerous for women (and ultimately bad for our whole society).

The woman who comes home from her job as a nuclear physicist and says "honey, can you fix the kitchen tap for me?" isn't "hiding her intelligence." She's showing respect to her husband, and giving her husband an opportunity to show love to her.

It depends. Which of them is actually better at fixing the tap? If he is, fine. If she is, acting helpless so he can feel capable is a problem.

I have a problem with taking someone like Miranda Kerr as a role model, because "beautiful" does not necessarily imply "wise." However, when she says "men feel important when you ask for their help," she's spot on.

Sure; and in any normal relationship each of you will ask for and receive help on a continual basis. (My husband is my IT support guy, just for example, because my expertise begins and ends at turning something off and on again). But ask for help in areas where you actually need it and the other can give it; don't do this sort of feigned helplessness thing just so your man can feel important.

 

[Radagast]

don't do this sort of feigned helplessness thing just so your man can feel important.

I said "when she says 'men feel important when you ask for their help,' she's spot on."

I don't think that's quite the same thing as "women should feign helplessness," which is something I did not say.

 

[Paidiske]

No, you didn't say it, but it's part of the bigger picture in which Miranda's comments are only one small part.

 

[Radagast]

No, you didn't say it, but it's part of the bigger picture in which Miranda's comments are only one small part.

Your logic appears to be:

• Radagast believes P
• P and Q are part of the same "bigger picture"
• Therefore Radagast believes Q

I'm pretty sure that that's a fallacy.

 

[Paidiske]

No, I didn't say Radagast believes Q. My comments against Q were directed at the subject more broadly.

 

[Radagast]

No, I didn't say Radagast believes Q. My comments against Q were directed at the subject more broadly.

You made what certainly appeared to be a reply to me.

 

[Paidiske]

Yes, I was replying to you, and addressing the broader issue raised.

 

[Radagast]

Yes, I was replying to you, and addressing the broader issue raised.

It's very confusing when people do both those things at once, and I think people should vaccinate their children against infectious diseases.

... see what I mean?

 

[Joy]

MOD HAT ON

This Thread

From The Kitchen Sink
To Ethics & Morality
This is a More Fitting Forum
for this subject
MOD HAT OFF​

 

[mama2one]

.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Do you agree? Why or Why not?

Yes, I do agree. Life is an art. A happy relationship is not automatic. It takes effort from both parties.

I'm assuming here that one actually values the relationship. If not, I wonder why one is there. If one has a toxic relationship, I can understand why one wouldn't want to put in any effort.

If one wants to get some good out of a relationship, one should contribute something to the relationship, and that generally means doing something to make one's partner's life a little better. One should give one's partner reasons to value the relationship.

I don't believe that this should be entirely one-sided. Indeed, that would just be self-sacrifice, and that would have no good purpose. However, putting effort into a relationship may encourage one's partner to do the same. Being valued gives one a reason to value one's partner.

Consider also that having a sense of personal entitlement is likely to be toxic to a relationship. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be valued. A relationship is a two-way street. However, if one treats one's partner as if one is entitled to happiness, that is just treating one's partner as a servant, not a partner.

That said, lighting some candles and treating one's partner as a benefit, not a burden, will do the best job that I can think of keeping a relationship alive.

And what constitutes "a little effort?" Who defines it?

Reality does. The verdict will be in the outcome.


eudaimonia,

Mark