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8 unique features separating Jesus from other philosophies

HitchSlap

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Yeah, we can just all rely on this simplistic "go to" of an explanation (excuse); that way, no one has to cull through hundreds of pages of ancient Jewish literary mush to find bits and pieces of inter-textual allusions, overlapping contexts, and mystical expressions to consider.

Having little or no work to do when considering religious faith, even that of Christian faith, is just too intuitively compelling of a principle to pass up, isn't it? :cool:
Hand wave it away if you like, but you should do yourself a favor and read the link.
 
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Nithavela

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And by that notion, it isn't a fact that just because something isn't unique means that it isn't true or useful, either.
Which makes this whole thread seem kind of pointless, at least to me.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Hand wave it away if you like, but you should do yourself a favor and read the link.

It's not "hand-waving" if I mention a context of complexity that I think applies, one which I think you atheists often conveniently 'wave away' yourselves.

By the way, I AM reading the debate which NV had with Tree of Life ... so far, I'm not overly impressed with either side, although both sides make some interesting points.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Which makes this whole thread seem kind of pointless, at least to me.

That's a superfluous statement and does not consider what I said to you in a previous post above.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I.E. Jesus' birth wasn't exactly of an unprecedented kind when considering the special births that God previously brought about among barren women in the Old Testament.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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...this all depends on whether Scripture writers are attempting to express truth through 1) LINEAR FULFILLMENTS that have an exactly matching one to one ratio, or 2) through GENERALIZED PATTERNS of spiritual significance. Guess which one I think it is, NV? (In fact, I think we've already discussed this before, and since I'm not a fundamentalist in the most expansive sense, I don't feel beholden to have to defend the former approach. But, I'll still read through the debate you had with this other guy.) :cool:

"Generalized patterns of spiritual significance." In other words, he pulled it out of thin air. Right? If it's not something that actually happened, and if he has no source for it other than incorrect or out-of-context interpretations of the OT, then what we have here is a liar writing down a gospel.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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"Generalized patterns of spiritual significance." In other words, he pulled it out of thin air. Right? If it's not something that actually happened, and if he has no source for it other than incorrect or out-of-context interpretations of the OT, then what we have here is a liar writing down a gospel.

Somehow, NV, I think you and I have different sources by which we assess all of these things. So, forgive me if I find your jumping to conclusions to be a bit hasty, or I disagree that the phrase "pulling it out of thin air" is a fair representation of what I was trying to convey to you by my reference to the concept of "generalized patterns."

I'm mean, this is JEWISH material we're handling here, even ancient Jewish material, and I don't think the prophets of Israel had anything in mind like 20th century Communications Theory when they were writing or interpreting the Scriptures, but somehow you atheists, along with your counterparts--the typical, run-of-the-mill fundamentalist Christians--seem to reduce it down to such.

It could just be that there is a third option ... i.e. the one I'm referring to.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Somehow, NV, I think you and I have different sources by which we assess all of these things. So, forgive me if I find your jumping to conclusions to be a bit hasty, or I disagree that the phrase "pulling it out of thin air" is a fair representation of what I was trying to convey to you by my reference to the concept of "generalized patterns."

I'm mean, this is JEWISH material we're handling here, even ancient Jewish material, and I don't think the prophets of Israel had anything in mind like 20th century Communications Theory when they were writing or interpreting the Scriptures, but somehow you atheists, along with your counterparts--the typical, run-of-the-mill fundamentalist Christians--seem to reduce it down to such.

It could just be that there is a third option ... i.e. the one I'm referring to.

And I don't know what it is that you're referring to. I don't know what third option there is.

A) They wrote the truth
B) They made stuff up
C) ???


I'm just baffled on this "there could be a third option."

OJ Simpson committed those murders? Or he didn't? Neither! There's a third option!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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And I don't know what it is that you're referring to. I don't know what third option there is.

A) They wrote the truth
B) They made stuff up
C) ???


I'm just baffled on this "there could be a third option."

OJ Simpson committed those murders? Or he didn't? Neither! There's a third option!

Of course you don't know what it is I'm referring to. I haven't explicated anything on it yet.

Here it is in a nutshell: The Old Testament prophecies are enigmatically and esoterically articulated, expressing patterns of relations between various concepts. Some prophecies pertain to the immediate historical context of the times in which they were written. Some prophecies to vaguely insinuate a future fulfillment. And some other prophecies express patterns of meaning that, while not expressly pointing to the future, provide precedents by which God can act AGAIN in the future and by which we will recognize [if we're paying attention] that event X (such as the birth of Christ) is a fulfillment of previous patterns. However, by fulfillment in this case, I DON'T mean that a previous prophecy was alluding to a future event, but rather that the later event exuded a pattern that reflects the previous pattern(s) and thereby signifies that God is again doing something of the kind of thing for which He has been known for in the past and by which we should recognize His activity in the world again at a later time.

This is the same kind of patterning dynamic we see where Jesus warns the Jewish people again and again against "the flames and the worms that do not die." Here, Jesus wasn't saying that those old prophecies at the end of Isaiah were talking specifically about the Jews of Jesus' day, but rather that the Jews of Jesus' day had better watch out, OR GOD WILL DO AGAIN WHAT HE DID TO JEWS BEFORE, IN THE SAME WAY AS BEFORE.

Do you see the difference in what I'm saying in all of this, NV? Yes, this would make prophecy very complex and enigmatic. But so what? It would be typical of the Jewish interpretive traditions. Surely you know this since you've studied biblical hermeneutics, right?
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Of course you don't know what it is I'm referring to. I haven't explicated anything on it yet.

Here it is in a nutshell: The Old Testament prophecies are enigmatically and esoterically articulated, expressing patterns of relations between various concepts. Some prophecies pertain to the immediate historical context of the times in which they were written. Some prophecies to vaguely insinuate a future fulfillment. And some other prophecies express patterns of meaning that, while not expressly pointing to the future, provide precedents by which God can act AGAIN in the future and by which we will recognize [if we're paying attention] that event X (such as the birth of Christ) is a fulfillment of previous patterns. However, by fulfillment in this case, I DON'T mean that a previous prophecy was alluding to a future event, but rather that the later event exuded a pattern that reflects the previous pattern(s) and thereby signifies that God is again doing something of the kind of thing for which He has been known for in the past and by which we should recognize His activity in the world again at a later time.

This is the same kind of patterning dynamic we see where Jesus warns the Jewish people again and again against "the flames and the worms that do not die." Here, Jesus wasn't saying that those old prophecies at the end of Isaiah were talking specifically about the Jews of Jesus' day, but rather that the Jews of Jesus' day had better watch out, OR GOD WILL DO AGAIN WHAT HE DID TO JEWS BEFORE, IN THE SAME WAY AS BEFORE.

Do you see the difference in what I'm saying in all of this, NV? Yes, this would make prophecy very complex and enigmatic. But so what? It would be typical of the Jewish interpretive traditions. Surely you know this since you've studied biblical hermeneutics, right?

Did the virgin birth actually happen or did Matthew make it up?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Did the virgin birth actually happen or did Matthew make it up?

According to Matthew and Luke, and by inference through Paul, I'd say it actually happened. But not because some O.T. passage in Isaiah said in some kind of exact, precise, unmistakable way that it would.

Rather, Matthew has his Midrash of what happened, Luke has his interpretation of what happened, and Paul has some tidbits of inference.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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According to Matthew and Luke, and by inference through Paul, I'd say it actually happened. But not because some O.T. passage in Isaiah said in some kind of exact, precise, unmistakable way that it would.

Rather, Matthew has his Midrash of what happened, Luke has his interpretation of what happened, and Paul has some tidbits of inference.

I was unaware that Luke and Paul attest to a virgin birth. Do you have the passages?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I was unaware that Luke and Paul attest to a virgin birth. Do you have the passages?

Luke 1:26-38.

Galatians 4:4-5 (i.e. by inference, along with various imputations by Paul in various letters about Jesus being THE Son of God; and if you don't get a 'virgin birth' out of Galatians 4:4-5, surely you can admit by logic that Paul contextually infers that it was at least a miraculous, divinely appointed circumstance).
 
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Motherofkittens

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Hephaestus was born of Zeus and Hera, although Hesiod records an alternate legend that Hera bore him alone in revenge for Zeus having Athena jump fully formed from his forehead. This is in contradiction with most other legends that Hephaestus was the one that struck Zeus with an axe to free Athena in the first place.

Horus was born of Isis and Osiris. Isis collected Osiris' remains but couldn't find his penis, so fashioned a golden one for him. She then proceeded to have sex with Osiris' corpse, so hardly a 'virgin birth' for Horus.

Krishna was born of Devaki and Vasudeva in a tale very similar to that of Zeus, in that children are prophesied to replace their parents and are disposed of, except for the one that escapes.

There are a lot of strange birth narratives, it is true, but I see these more as foreshadowing. Some that are called virgin births, like Athena from Zeus' forehead, or Mithras being born from a rock, eschew normal gestation and genitals entirely, so hardly warrant the term I think. Your examples aren't really virgin births though.
Regardless, Jesus' birth is different in that it is a normal human pregnancy that just happens to be parthenogenic, instead of all kinds of other weird and wonderful mythology.

And Jesus was born of Mary and David. So, not a virgin birth. Or at least some of the stories (including the "mainstream" Christian Gospel) say that.

I'm at work and I am super busy for the foreseeable future. Holiday session is here, it is crazy! I don't even have a day off until about two weeks from now and I'm working 10+ hours a day. But I really want to participate in this discussion. So I'm book marking and I plan on being back here. I have a few verses to share that I think will be enlightening.

OP, I'm happy for you to try and convert me. I already was a Christian though and I have looked a great deal into it. But I'm open. Obviously I don't know everything.

I'd actually love for there to be deities, magic, a happy afterlife for everyone, crypto animals, and all that. I just don't have good reasons to accept any of that as true. At least not yet.
 
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Silmarien

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Luke 1:26-38.

Galatians 4:4-5 (i.e. by inference, along with various imputations by Paul in various letters about Jesus being THE Son of God; and if you don't get a 'virgin birth' out of Galatians 4:4-5, surely you can admit by logic that Paul contextually infers that it was at least a miraculous, divinely appointed circumstance).

I worry that this involves reading more back into Paul's phrasing than is actually intended. It reminds me of the wording of Job 14:1. "A mortal, born of woman, few of days and full of trouble."

So all I really read there is that Paul is affirming that he was born human and not some sort of disembodied angel, Richard Carrier style.

I'd actually love for there to be deities, magic, a happy afterlife for everyone, crypto animals, and all that. I just don't have good reasons to accept any of that as true. At least not yet.

Crypto animals? What's this?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I worry that this involves reading more back into Paul's phrasing than is actually intended. It reminds me of the wording of Job 14:1. "A mortal, born of woman, few of days and full of trouble."

So all I really read there is that Paul is affirming that he was born human and not some sort of disembodied angel, Richard Carrier style.
Actually, if we look at the contexts provided by Paul, we see that in verse 4:4, he first affirms that God "sent forth" an agent, language which reflects that used by other N.T. writers to express an office of a special messenger. We see this kind of thing applied to John the Baptist and to Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels, as well as to Jesus' commissioning of His apostles as "those who are sent."

Secondly, Paul implies that God is "the Father" of Jesus, which as we all know, is language used profusely by nearly all of the writers in the New Testament. And this Fatherhood/Sonship relation between God and Jesus is exclusive and, as again Paul implies, not a state of being that can be shared by any other human being. Hence, in verse 5, we see Paul saying that Jesus' coming into the world allows us to be "adopted" as sons. Interestingly, there is absolutely no context given by Paul that would then allow for us to read this adoptionist theme back into Jesus' status; He definitely isn't adopted. He is unique. We are adopted by the Father; Jesus is not adopted. Additionally, all of what Paul says in verse 4 contrasts with the language Paul uses in verse 5 when referring to our "adoption" as sons (and daughters), and this contrast between Jesus and every other person is also conceptually reflected in what John states in his gospel in chapter 1 (e.g. John 1:12).

Thirdly, Paul says that Jesus is born of a woman, and born under the law. So, we know that although Jesus is born in a way similar to any other man, Jesus' birth isn't an illegitimate one or else he couldn't have been born according to the prescription of holiness in the Law. Paul knew, too, that the woman by whom Jesus had to be born would likewise have to be holy under the prescriptions of the Law for Jesus to qualify. Moreover, Paul states that God is the Father, but since we know that Paul says that God is Spirit, then we know Paul HAS to be inferring that the woman involved had to become pregnant by some kind of fiat of God, because there is no sexual intercourse made by God the Father with any human woman, ever.

Fourth, if we follow the encoding that Paul gives to this passage, we see that the totality of the Father's actions through the woman and through the Law make Jesus' mission possible and allow us to identify Jesus' nature, even if just in a minimal way and in just a short set of verses.

So, sorry Silmarien. I think my interpretation stands fairly strong and isn't evidence of my reading anything INTO Paul that isn't already inferred by the kind of Jewish thinking that is available to Paul in his own time.

For anyone else who thinks they're going to ride roughshod over my hermeneutical applications better get ready to put on their thinking caps and pull out their research tablets and do some reading, particularly from the following References:

1) Biblical Hermeneutics: A Comprehensive Introduction to Interpreting Scripture - Burce Corley, Steve W. Lemke, and Grant I. Lovejoy

2) History of Biblical Interpretation: A Reader - William Yarchin

3) Judaism and the Interpretation of Scripture - Jacob Neusner

4) Foundations of Contemporary Interpretation: Six Volumes in One - Moises Silva (Editor)

5) Out of Context: How to Avoid Misinterpreting the Bible - Richard L. Schultz

6) Beyond the Obvious - James DeYoung and Sarah Hurty

7) Exegetical Fallacies - D.A. Carson

8) Three Views on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament - Walter Kaiser Jr., Darrell L. Bock, and Peter Enns.

9) The Right Doctrine from the Wrong Texts?: Essays on the Use of the Old Testament in the New - G.K. Beale (Editor)

10) Handbook on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament: Exegesis and Interpretation - G.K. Beale

...among others I can list.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Luke 1:26-38.

Galatians 4:4-5 (i.e. by inference, along with various imputations by Paul in various letters about Jesus being THE Son of God; and if you don't get a 'virgin birth' out of Galatians 4:4-5, surely you can admit by logic that Paul contextually infers that it was at least a miraculous, divinely appointed circumstance).

Thanks. Luke is unmistakable there. But I have no idea what you are trying to read into what Paul said.

Also, I see no source for Luke's claim other than Matthew, who is a known liar.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Thanks. Luke is unmistakable there. But I have no idea what you are trying to read into what Paul said.
You're welcome. No problem, NV.

And as to Paul, maybe see what I wrote in response to Silmarien above. (post #57)

Also, I see no source for Luke's claim other than Matthew, who is a known liar.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and point out that there is also no previous source for Luke's claims regarding Elizabeth's pregnancy, which comes just prior to Mary's pregnancy and is yet another example of a fulfillment of the Old Testament "special birth" pattern.

So, I'm thinking, we may not want to assume that Luke got his "Virgin Birth" information from Matthew. It might just be that Luke extrapolated his version from an entirely different corpus of data than from what the other Gospel writers did; Matthew and Mark didn't write anything about Elizabeth, and Luke's account of Mary is just too different from Matthew's to assume he simply took it from him. But, who knows? We can all surmise what we think is the most likely process. ;)
 
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Motherofkittens

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I worry that this involves reading more back into Paul's phrasing than is actually intended. It reminds me of the wording of Job 14:1. "A mortal, born of woman, few of days and full of trouble."

So all I really read there is that Paul is affirming that he was born human and not some sort of disembodied angel, Richard Carrier style.



Crypto animals? What's this?

"Cryptozoology" as it is sometimes called, yeah, there is a name for it, a couple names actually, is the search for mythical and extinct animals. Some famous ones are Big Foot, Lochness sea monster, werewolves, unicorns, dragons, and a whole bunch of others. Some people also believe dinosaurs and other animals that are thought to be extinct, actually still exist now. Which definitely could be possible. It is just there isn't enough evidence to accept, at least not yet. But that would be AWESOME if there was!

I'm exhausted, *yawn*. Christians shopping for Christmas sure do look like they are celebrating materials, more than anything else. There are a lot who are just mean too. I don't mind rude, I rarely even notice unless someone says that they were rude, then I'm like, huh, yeah, they were. :( I don't have very good social skills, but I am never mean. There are people who try to purposely hurt and upset you . I work retail. These past three months have been an extra bad nightmare. It is so stressful.

I've got to dig out my verses, again, hopefully I can do that soon. I doubt I can do it tomorrow. I have a really full day and will just have access to my phone and just on breaks. I'd rather do this on a computer. I have to go through my Bible and pick them out and go through the context and everything. I don't have any of the stuff I want to post in a notebook, online or otherwise. I should, make it easy on me.
Anyway,I I'm going to bed now. Have a wonderful night everyone.:bye:
 
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